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Arguments Of Ghamidi Sahab On Atheism
Posted by Shaiq Shah on April 16, 2025 at 12:16 amAccording to ghamidi sahab design in universe is biggest proof for existence of intelligent entity which he calls God;now my counter arguments are:
1)in biological design,alternate answers are given by science
As design came due to natural selection and branching descent…they say out of all the planets in universe probablity of life condns occured on earth and blah blah…
But it is answer to ghamidi sahabs argument of design definitely.
2)even if it is accepted,that design came due to intelligent entity,then also how you know it is due to God…that intelligent entity is not necessary that he should be God.
3)in molecular genetics we see that molecular interactions are fixed for any behavioral process to proceed,so how we have free will…and doesnt it aligns us with believing this all has come from chemical evolution.
4)in evolution atavism,embryological evidence etc give satisfactory answer to that…we have come from evolution…
5)why believing supreme power is necessary in universe,why it can not be due to multiple entities….
Who take decisions by discussions etc…i mean why there can not be many Gods.
Ibrahim Kashif replied 2 days, 11 hours ago 2 Members · 50 Replies -
50 Replies
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Arguments Of Ghamidi Sahab On Atheism
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 2:54 am1)All of the things you mentioned above are “processes”.
To reach a functionally coherent outcome, a process is employed.
It doesn’t deny the designer. For example the iPhone is being made in the assembly line. We are well aware of each and every step how it ultimately makes the iPhone. Does it mean Steve jobs is not the “designer” of the iPhone?
Similarly, many a times Allah mentions various natural phenomena and commands us to think about them.
Processes are defined and confined to achieve an objective. The source of definition of any process to reach a functional outcome in all known instances of human knowledge and experience is an entity with a mind.
Likewise, evolution is also a process which explains the diversity and homology among species, just like any other natural process for example, the alternation of day and night, reproduction process of living beings, growth of plants etc.
2)It is a general law that creator cannot be part of creation and creator cannot be like creator. For example a painter makes painting but is not part of it and not like it , an author writes a book but is not like the book and is not part of the book , Steve jobs is not like iPhone and not part of it as well.
So , all the things humans make are “artificial” and humans themselves are “natural”. So the one responsible for creating nature logically cannot be like “nature”. He is beyond and above it.
3)Free will has to do with intention , will and action. All these are faculties of “self”. These are not mechanistic or material. Our material body prepares us to make that action happen via mechanistic/neurological pathways. But it is “We” who “do” that . We who think that. We who choose. Just like a computer has hardware and software, both are different in nature fundamentally but both work in correlation. Similarly, we have our “body” and “self” both work in harmony.
4)This universe is not only present but sustained as well. It works on “laws” which we discover in science. That is what makes science predictable and doable. Those laws don’t change. If there were more than one lawgiver, we would expect frequent changes in laws or chaos all together. That is why there is only one God.
Secondly, it is a logical contradiction to assert that there could be multiple Gods. because by definition, God is all powerful and all Wise, so there cannot be more than one “absolute”
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:12 amOnly logical answer given is of part 1,all others are mere thoughts which are subjective;
As in 1st part yours honor said that it doesnt nullify designer…but i never nullified it…i am saying there is also possiblity of this getting spontaneously proceed without anyones influence…
For example;water falls from high potential energy to low potential energy…it doesnt need your involvement….but if same water is put in jar at some height may be your presence is needeed to proceed it…
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:19 amMay be you will say the example you given is bound with laws which has to be in universe……
Okay,then what does it change…it is has no proof that laws were incorporated by God,nor we can prove that they were not incorporated by God…
Its dilemma..
I myself believe their is God…
But i have came with some possiblities only.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:27 amplease read where I mentioned in all known instances of knowledge and experience the only known source of definition and laws is an entity.
A law means “how must it work”. So there is a decision to be made. And decisions are made by entities.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:39 amMy only qn is there is possiblity of Godless universe…
But probablity of it is quite low…
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:40 amKindly if you could explain how?
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:45 amBecause there are some qns in biological evolution,physics etc which point towards universe with designer…that they compell us to accept that this can not be explained merely on far stretched probablities..
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:46 amI can send you some examples from evolutionary biology
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 3:48 amIf I understand you correctly, you are saying that universe is it’s own designer. Am I right?
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:02 amYes there is possiblity of this
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:08 amThis violates the principle of causality. To create itself, it has to be present before being created which is paradoxical and absurd.
Nothing can create itself.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:11 amI say universe existed in some or other form from time immortal
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:12 amI qn you is creation necessary for existence or not?
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:15 amYes, creation is necessary for existence of contingent and created things.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:16 amOkay tell me if you existed in early universe,then according to you that time….Did God had to exist or not.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:18 amIf yes what convinced you there,what kind of design you observed there,if no then isnt possiblity of this belief which younare holding product of cosmological evolution.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:21 amAnd if possiblities in cosmological evolution bounded in laws convinces you to believe in God,then why otherwise possiblities can not be considered.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:24 amAnd lets say in early universe you see God and early matter…how would you be able to distinguish how this matter is created…and God itself not.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:26 amI mean what is all time difference between created and indigenous,self existing thing…
On which you claim that it is Godly universe.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:27 amFirst of all, it is a presuppositions that we existed in previous universe, and the previous universe was like this one.
Secondly, if it is the way you are saying “cosmological evolution” it is still a process. Where after certain time , God reshapes the cosmos the way He Wills. Just like we can mould plastic and iron into various shapes and then remould them into new shapes.
Cosmos undergoes modifications, but it requires a modifier.
That is exactly what is mentioned in the Quran , where God says I will return this creation and reform it into new heavens and earth the way I did before.
Cosmos is essentially space , time , matter and energy. None of which has a mind , knowledge, intentional and creative power. It acts in harmony as a system.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:29 amAnswer last qn of mine..
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:30 amIf you answered last qn…case is closed.simple.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:32 amHow to distinguish between created and non created matter…plz answer…i am very curious to know!
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 4:49 amIf it’s uncreated, can it be matter?
Secondly, all the matter exists in forms and shapes in planets and stars living and non-living.
What makes it into shapes and forms =processes.
What is the original outcome of those processes= everything.
Big bang led to universe. Solar nebula theory shows making and breaking of planets . Evolution explains the diversity of species.
But the fundamental questions stand still?
Processes are defined and confined. The only known source of this is an entity who has mind , knowledge, purpose, intention , planning and intervention. That is why God
Where and how did matter originate? No known mechanistic explanation.
What makes matter living? How a matter becomes living? No known mechanistic explanation
What is the origin and mechanism of consciousness? No known mechanism.
Matter itself doesn’t know what to do or what not to do. It is a raw material which is molded in various shapes and hierarchy from microscopic to macroscopic level , integrated and in harmony.
The only known source of such outcomes is intentionality, mind hence God.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:03 amI am not talking is God made of matter or not….we dont know..i am saying whatever that is is that matter or not…be it whatever…
How to distinguish between that and matter which we see that which is created and which is not….
As you see everytime existing God…i see alltime existing universe.
You see processes modifying universe….i think also it modifies as it existed from time immortal..
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:06 amTherefore i think possiblity is of Godless universe but many things increase probabloty of Godly universe simple…
You will qn who created universe…i will qn who created God
You will say created things have God….i will say how you know your God is not created…
You will say no no… this is that and that is this…which makes no sense my dear brother
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:21 amThere are two categories of truths: necessary and contingent.
Necessary truths don’t require explanation for example numbers 1,2,3 /colour red etc. These are necessary truths.
Contingent truths require explanation in terms of their origin and working. Like everything we see I myself, you and the whole universe is contingent. Therefore, it’s explanation is sought.
God is a necessary truth in existence so by definition, He doesn’t require explanation in terms of origin and working.
You said “Who created God?”. It implies that you think God is “created”. What is the source of this information? Have we seen Him? No. Have we detected Him? No. Have we realised that there is a God? Yes. How? By looking into ourselves and everything in the universe. What is the nature of God? We don’t know? Does it nullify it’s existence? No. Then how can we deny the existence of God.
Secondly, we cannot have an infinite chain of causes i.e. infinite regress, otherwise nothing would exist. So logically the source of all contingent existences is a necessary existence who Himself is uncaused.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:24 amHmm,geeting on track…
1)I dont think matter around us is created and how you know that it is created,from where you got information….
2)why can not be the infinite entity be itself universe
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:35 am1)We know matter is created because it exists in forms and shapes and each form or shape serves a purpose. It is not just a large cosmological heap or pile existing in isolation.
Secondly, at the point of singularity in big bang, there was no matter , space , time at all so matter can into existence it wasn’t present for infinity.
2) Infinity does not exist in physical terms. Every physical entity is finite. This universe contains an estimated 2 trillion galaxies which is a finite number. There are estimated total 10 raised to the power of 80 atoms in the whole universe still a finite number. Matter is anything which has mass and occupies space so it is finite by definition as well.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 5:42 am1) very nice criteria by the way to see if anything was created or not….
So according to it immediately after big bang matter which came into existence was not created.
2)matter came into existence from energy….◇E=◇mc^2….and so are qn for energy also..
3)i mean with respect to us…it seems infinite…here its wording which i used.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:02 amE=mc² is a mathematical equation. Math exists in “mind” since mathematics is an abstract reality.
To convert energy into matter, “intervention” is required. Energy itself cannot express it’s conscience to shape itself into various forms of matter.
Which means God intervened to make that transition possible.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:04 amAnd secondly it’s wrong that matter came into existence in line with this equation because this equation breaks down at the point of singularity of big bang. So essentially we have no known mechanistic explanation of origin of matter
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:05 amIt may be was spontaneous in that conditions…so not necessarily God had to intervene.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:13 amAt First,you have to prove its non spontaneous nature which can not be proved…because we know very less about eary big bang…
So you have to let it in 50% _50% probablity.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:15 amBy the way you didnt answered how our matter proves us that it is created?
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:35 amWhat is spontaneous and non-spontaneous? Spontaneity cannot originate something, because you have to set the “conditions” right to achieve the outcome. Spontaneity works “within” system. For example, combustion is a spontaneous process but it requires “intervention”/ignition to get started. Once it is started it works until the fuel runs out.
The initial condition of entropy of Universe is highly precise. It is 10 raised to the power of 10 raised to the power of 123 (double exponent; search Penrose entropy constant on internet).
If it was slightly more or less, this universe won’t be existing. So , conditioning requires mind , intention, and intervention. Hence it was non -spontaneous , conscious act, which points to God.
I have answered regarding matter. Please refer to previous responses
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:41 amYou are right but…it is change in entropy which determine the process to be spontaneous or non spontaneous…not entropy…i mean
Delta S determines not S.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:45 amThe conversion of energy into matter at the time of the Big Bang was a **spontaneous** process under the extreme conditions of the early universe. Here’s why:
### Key Factors:1. **Extremely High Temperature & Energy Density** – The Big Bang occurred at temperatures exceeding **10³² K**, with energy densities so high that particle-antiparticle pairs (like quarks, leptons, and photons) were constantly being created and annihilated in equilibrium. – Under these conditions, **Einstein’s mass-energy equivalence (E=mc²) allowed energy to spontaneously convert into matter and vice versa** without requiring an external energy input.
2. **Thermodynamic Conditions Favored Matter Formation** – In thermodynamics, spontaneity depends on **Gibbs free energy (ΔG = ΔH – TΔS)**. – At such high temperatures, the **entropy term (TΔS)** dominated, making ΔG negative for particle creation. Thus, matter formation was **entropically favorable** despite the positive enthalpy (ΔH) of creating massive particles.
3. **Absence of Equilibrium Constraints** – The universe was **not in a low-energy equilibrium state**; instead, it was rapidly expanding and cooling. This allowed energy-to-matter conversion to proceed without the restrictions seen in today’s universe (where such processes are non-spontaneous and require high-energy collisions, like in particle accelerators).
4. **CP Violation & Matter-Antimatter Asymmetry** – While matter and antimatter were initially produced in nearly equal amounts, slight **CP symmetry violations** (as predicted by Sakharov’s conditions) led to a small excess of matter, making the process effectively irreversible.
### Contrast with Today’s Universe:- **Now**, converting energy to matter (e.g., pair production via photons) requires **external energy input** (high-energy collisions) and is **non-spontaneous** under standard conditions because: – The universe is much colder (~2.7 K CMB temperature). – The entropy of the universe is far higher, making ΔG positive for spontaneous matter creation.
### Conclusion:At the Big Bang, energy-to-matter conversion was **spontaneous** due to the ultra-high energy density, temperature, and non-equilibrium dynamics. In contrast, today it is **non-spontaneous** without significant energy input….From AI ……
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 6:51 amRead it carefully “process” was spontaneous, but the “origin” the “cause” required ? The explanation of conditions to be set just right to get the process started.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:00 amHmm….satisfactory upto some level…
But it is also solved by multiverse theory….which says when required probablities are achieved cosmoses comes into existence.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:03 amThat when there were those condns….universe came…
People can reversely see it…
You see it as,
Bcoz condns were made by God….
They say bcoz out of infinite cases here such condns achieved…that is why universe came into existence.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:24 amFirst of all, multiverse is a hypothesis not a theory. It is neither empirically verifiable nor falsifiable so it is essentially, not a theory per se.
Secondly, multiverse if taken to be true, then what conclusion it confers must also be taken to be true:
The most popular multiverse hypothesis prediction comes from string theory, which predicts about 10 raised to the power of 500 universes.
We know that no universe can exist without laws, conditions and integration. So essentially, it amplifies the fine tuning argument.
Secondly, if at random chance we calculate all the possibilities of combinations, in all possible planets in all those 10 raised to the power of 500 universes, it still lags behind astronomically from the Penrose entropy constant alone (let alone combining all the constants we know of).
Hence, it logically follows that random chance cannot lead to functional outcomes and habitable planet and origin of life.
Also, chance occurs on something previously existing on which chance has to act, so essentially chance is a non-explanation because the real issue is “existence” which chance doesn’t resolve.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:25 amAlso it is not necessary for all spontaneous process to proceed while having initial ignition touch…
Ex. Water flow from high to low.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:29 amThe calculations which you see are themselves based on assumptions…so these can not justify…
For me calculating probablities,while analysing biological,physio-chemi process….we can conclude like more probablity of Godly universe rather than Godless universe
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:30 amWater will not flow from high to low in space. Hence, there is a cause i.e. gravity. And I think water flowing is not a process per se.
Process means to reach from point A to B you have to cover a series of steps like raw material converted into product.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:35 amOkay let me give you another example;conversion of diamond into graphite…
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:37 amFlow of heat from high temprature to low temperature.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:41 amNow this discussion will become meaningless….for me those realities where probablities factor will become very far stretched are clear indicators of God…simple…
Those realities can be learned in many fields of your life..
And also ghamidi sahabs design is not that strong if challenged and not that weak so that it could be overidden.
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Shaiq Shah
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:43 amBy the way thanks dear…it was a good academic discussion.It will definitely help many in future.
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Ibrahim Kashif
Member April 16, 2025 at 7:45 amThank you so much to you too.
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