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Do Homosexuals And Lesbians Do Injustice To Others
We can debate if homosexual or lesbian behaviour does injustice to others or society. A homosexual or lesbian relationship is a private affair between two consenting human beings. It is not doing injustice to any one else. So unless the State finds it is causing fasad on earth they cannot punish him. They are answerable to God and he knows what is in their hearts. Are they deliberately committing a sin or has God made them this way. ?
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98 Replies
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Do Homosexuals And Lesbians Do Injustice To Others
updated 4 years, 3 months ago
5 Members
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98
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Interesting question.
What if two consenting siblings creates a relationship? Obviously, our collective consciousness at society level wont tolerate it as it as it is something unnatural that offends everyone. Similarly in the case of homosexuals and lesbian, societies by nature their collective conciousness does not accept it.
Is it natural? That’s an interesting question. The answer is vague in the scientific world. From religious point of view God gives us a definite answer that it is not acceptable. An urge of attraction towards same sex can society intervene to stop it? Yes, it can. People suffering from kleptomania (An impulse control disorder that results in an irresistible urge to steal) just because a person has an urge to steal shouldn’t we stop them as it causes damage to society? Yes we do.
Thats my observation.
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Please tell me is the police going to barge into some one’s bedroom and check on what they are doing? Does anybody have the right to know the sexual inclinations of another human being ? I never said it was right but I feel we need to mind our own business and do our own tazkiya and look inward before passing judgement on others. There is so much horror going around us like raping of little girls and boys. Can some in the State do something to stop such evils which destroys the child and her family? What some one does in the privacy of his bedroom is not my business!
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Have we been made the Moral police of the world?!
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No we are not as its not our domain. Its state domain to keep check and balance on the citizen. My first question what if they do such acts outside in public? Do you think state should intervene and stop it?.
First, we have to realize that this act is harmful for the person himself/herself or not. If we consider it harmful then state can intervene to stop self-harm. Imagine a person abuse himself with drugs. He does everything in his home & doesnt bother anyone can state intervene? Yes, it can.
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Are we living without society and families? Living in our own uninterrupted desires world? Answer in No . These immoral things which no religion and society can accept spread in societies slaowly and quietly ,when a time comes like this time when people are trying to make these immoral the part of society. the result is fasad. Even the libral western societies can’t accept it no parents wants their children like this. Now imagine what will happen in eastern societies. I absolutely dis agree that god made them like this. It’s a base of any crime A murderer will be justified because god made him in this way that he cannot control his emotions or anger.Then what’s the self control, which is the base of every religion to control your nafas or self.
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No we are our moral guard. But when someone do something wrong publicly then he or she is punished but we have a self check on us so that we can not become a part of some immorality.
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I said very clearly in the privacy of one’s bedroom. Obviously if it done publicly the culprits have to be caught and punished
I will not be judgemental. I do not know the issues people face.
Ayema I know of a woman personally who is very religious, prays 5 times, goes for Umrah has done Haj. She is not evil or criminal. I can vouch for her honesty. I talked to her. She said she is ready to face God and let God be her judge. She said God made her like this. Problem is anybody whose norms are different from us we call them criminals. !No God didn’t make murderers but we cannot compare them to gays and lesbians.
Also what makes you think homosexuality and lesbianism is only in the Western Society? It is widely spread in the Muslim societies too. Of course no Western or Eastern parents want their child to be gay or a lesbian. But it does not alter the fact that there are gays and lesbians in modern societies and conservative societies. We are just not ready to accept that!
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I can give you examples of several others who again I know are gay and acknowledge it and are ready to face Allah who made them this way. Their families are upset but they have accepted it that their son or daughter is gay. They are not harming any one but maybe themselves!
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There are multiple contradictions within your comments. If something is sinful in one’s eyes then how it can be justified just because it’s happening within the close doors.
Good deeds shouldn’t be used to justify bad deeds. God himself criticised such acts in his book then it doesn’t make sense to say that let God be their judged very respectfully. His book is condemning such acts which conveys God’s judgement.
Whether its in western society or muslim society its un-natural & unlawful. Can we not be judgemental as individuals say that they have created like this by God?
There isnt any substantial argument to support this claim and a muslim the incident of Quom e Lut clarifies that this isnt something natural or born with. A lot or psychological & environmental factors are involved in it therefore a person must abstain himself from it. What if a person is inclinced towards minors and says I was born in such way?
Its a double edge sword & open up ways to damage societies morally.
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فَلَمَّا جَاءَ أَمْرُنَا جَعَلْنَا عَالِيَهَا سَافِلَهَا وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهَا حِجَارَةً مِّن سِجِّيلٍ مَّنضُودٍ
مُّسَوَّمَةً عِندَ رَبِّكَ ۖ وَمَا هِيَ مِنَ الظَّالِمِينَ بِبَعِيدٍ
“So when Our Commandment came, We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down, and rained on them stones of baked clay, piled up. [Each stone] marked from your Lord, and they are not ever far from the wrongdoers.” (Hood 11:82-83) Ibn Katheer said: It is said that Jibreel uprooted those townships from the earth and those around it – and they were in total seven towns – with its inhabitants and animals. He lifted them up to the sky and then threw them back, upside down.
This the end of loot’s nation so why did Allah punish them. If Allah made them like this then why did they punished? It’s against humanity, moral and social value.we can’t live like a woman we have to play many roles in society especially the role of a mother. How can a mother teach her children good if she has her own moral values not the social and religious values?
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I wan to give you the example-like a goat ,it cannot eat meat because Allah made it this way and it has no free will and no answer able to Allah. So there’s no need for them any religion. But we need religion because we can use our will In right or wrong way.so behind the close doors , or any place when on one is around us but fear of Allah stop us to commit a sin. That’s our test. We can’t consider a sin is not a sin by saying that god made them like this but they are going against nature even if they don’t believe any religion it’s a big sin. A woman who has fear of Allah and love can’t go against his command..
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Look I made my point and nobody is asking you to accept it let’s agree to disagree! I’m not persuading any one that I’m right and they are wrong!
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Also I never said it is not a sin. What I said the gays and lesbians say it is not a sin NOT ME.
I’m not deciding who is a sinner. This is for God to decide and give his judgement on such people. God alone knows how many gunnahs I commit daily and I say Tauba all the time. We all should do our own Tazkiya first .
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The people who are involved in such acts have to decide if it is harmful to them. If they think it is not, then you and me will be told to mind our own business ! Yes if these immoral acts are done in public they are a danger to the society we live in, the State must introduce some law to stop them. I cannot condemn any one to hell! God has not given me this authority to do so!
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We live in modern civilizations where a person’s private property also comes under state jurisdiction laws. If a person gets involves in activities that can be physically or ethically harmful to the society or to himself then state is in jurisdiction to intervene.
Examples:
1. Two consenting siblings cannot be allowed to have a relationship. State can intervene in their private property.
2. An individual abusing himself with drugs (tho he does it in his own property & harms himself the state can intervene)
I agree we should not condemn people to eternal hell. We must hate the sin not the sinner. We all must pray for our Maghfirah & Sirat e Mustaqren.
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Rafia ji.. respect to you for saying the correct thing.
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Thank you Sameer.
I find it very disturbing that it has become a habit amongst people to condemn others to eternal hell. I’m always afraid for myself and pray that I will always be able to face God for my actions.
Nobody will come to my help on Judgement Day and neither will I be able to plead for any soul.!
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When ISIS started their terrorist activities in Syria and the neighboring areas, they used to catch the homosexual men and one by one throw them off a high building to their death. I remember seeing a video of these horrors and thought to myself. This is not the message of the Qur’an Prophet sws brought to his people!
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Did the 4 RGCs (Abu Bakr and Ali in particular) not kill homosexuals ?
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Sahaba had different opinion about the punishment for homosexuals. We get these reports from Akhabar e Ahad. I expect the moderators to comment on the authenticity of these reports. The most common suggestion was execution.
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One of the moderators can answer better.
My last question on this subject hopefully, is
Why do you feel an act between two consenting people behind closed doors not affecting society should be punished?
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And my question is, Is it really not affected the society?
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Can any one please tell me does Qur’an mention any punishment for gays and lesbians?
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Punishment in this world at the level of state?
No but calls it a major sin through the incident of Quom-e-Lut.
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Then let Allah punish them in the afterlife.. what is the basis of punishing them in this life itself by Islamic rulers ?
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Jurisprudence. If something has harmful effects for the person as well as the society then what is wrong in making laws against them & making it punishble? 🤔
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Sameer one of the moderators can answer your question I’m sure!
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It’s ok.. if the 4 RGCs did indeed punish the homosexuals with death punishment, then you can’t really blame ISIS alone, as they just followed the 4 Caliphs.
Your blaming the ISIS is valid only if the most reputed early Islamic figures did not kill homosexuals, and ISIS alone did it.
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This islamist group came into power through barbarism and fear. They dont have any right to impose such laws. An example of pakistan or saudia arabia can be discussed where this crime is punishble through different means. In some places in muslim world its execution whereas others its imprisonment.
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I am not discussing ISIS method of coming to power, but only their stance on killing homosexuals. If we blame ISIS for killing homosexuals, while at the same time don’t blame the early rulers where they derived their inspiration from, then it is hypocrisy.
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Question is about jurisdiction. Why to mention a group who came into power through wrongly manner and start imposing punishments unjustly? It’s better to give example of modern civilized states instead of groups which dont have the authority.
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“Why to mention a group who came into power through wrongly manner and start imposing punishments unjustly?”
I didn’t mention it.. Rafia ji mentioned ISIS killing homosexuals as a bad thing. BTW, what do you mean by come into power through wrongly manner ? What is the right manner to come to power ?
“It’s better to give example of modern civilized states”
Civilized states aren’t any better in treating homosexuals or blasphemers.
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My apologies.
Sameer, that is a different topic. Let me give you a brief answer. Homosexuality is a crime against human nature and society. Just like adultery is a crime and punishble in the eyes of the state/society same goes for homosexuality. Even if its in a private property it comes under state/federal jurisdiction. A state will definitely has a limit to access but when confirmed can intervene and make it punishble.
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Allah mentioned punishment for theft and adultery in this world by state itself, so if Allah really wanted, he could have specified worldly punishment for homosexuality and blasphemy both.. but Allah didn’t. I think this was the principle used by Ghamidi saab to argue that punishing blasphemers by Pakistani law is un-islamic.. How can homosexuality be punishable then ?
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Ayema if you think it is affecting the society what solution do you have in mind? Let the police barge into the privacy of their bedrooms and check what they are doing and send them to jail, flog them in public?
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Taking drugs and becoming a danger to people around you is very different. Two consenting siblings is incest. !!We are talking about 2 different things.
Yes Qur’an calls it a major sin, but does the Qur’an say that the State or an individual should punish any one who is not doing anything openly and causing fasad on earth like rapists?
All I’m saying is please let Allah be the judge. We should constantly criticize and improve ourselves first. We have so many faults. Let’s start our tazkiya first Yes, let’s hate the sin and not the sinner!
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A state can make laws in the light of this guidance. Even if Quran wouldn’t have mentioned it state can make homosexuailty punishble as this is a crime against human nature and society. We can see such example in western world where few decades back this thing was punishble.
I agree let Allah be the judge but he himself gives authority to “Uloo lil amar” to create balance in the society.
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If it is a crime against human nature and society, why did Qur’an not direct the muslim rulers to punish the homosexuals ?
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Quran guides humans where they are unable to make laws. How can we expect Quran to give us laws about everything? Allah has given us wisdom to make laws and we have seen in the past muslims rulers have made it through jurisprudence / اجتہاد.
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Quran guided humans to punish the adulterers, and thieves .. what prevented Allah to mention the punishment for homosexuals as well, when it mentioned their sin ?
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Allah mentions it the incident of Quom e Lut & their sin and how Allah’s punishment came on them. That clarifies that this is punishble in the eyes of Allah.
At the time of prophet Muhammad was their any such incident big enough that Quran has to comment on it and clarify? Did something come up in front of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ in this regard or any ambuguity ?. It was clear among people and Sahaba knew how to deal with it at state level.
No need for it to be discussed and guide muslims in the regard.
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Well, Allah punished polytheism also in this world, and same way Allah punished Quom-e-Lut for homosexuality. Both are the divine punishments from Allah.
Allah didn’t say that it is fine to punish homosexuals or blasphemers in this world yourself.
Just to be clear, blasphemy creates more fasaad in the society than homosexuality.
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Can Islamic jurisprudence make laws against homosexuality or not? Yes it can.
Let me explain you, a theft hands should be cut. Should all theives needs to be punished in this way. We all know that it all depends upon the circumstances. So what must be done with someone who does it because of some extreme necessity?. So the punishment is applicable on a case by case basis and sometimes even not applicable as we saw at the time of famine in Hadhrat Umar time.
Similarly, homosexuality is a similar crime in the eyes of state as adultery is. As it shares the same nature, the punishment can of adultery is applicable and even state can do jurisprudence to drive other forms of punishment too.
We need to understand why divine laws/shariah are given to humans when Allah has already blessed them with Aqal/wisdom to make laws. Whenever their is dispute or guidance needed Allah intervenes.
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“Can Islamic jurisprudence make laws against homosexuality or not? Yes it can.”
Would you say the same for blasphemy also ? Can Islamic jurisprudence make laws against blasphemers and it will be Islamic to kill blasphemers too ? We know that blasphemy is going to create huge chaos in the society and hurts billions of pious believers’ sentiments and encourage them to do blasphemy too.
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The two things are not comparable to each other by nature. Homosexuality can be compared to adultery.
I think they can if they want to & if the society wants but we have seen the after-effects of such laws turned out to create more choas in the society. So its something that’s debatable. We dont see clear evidence and its pretty much clear that neither Prophet Muhammad nor Sahaba punished blasmphers.
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“The two things are not comparable to each other by nature. Homosexuality can be compared to adultery.”
They don’t have to be of the same nature of crimes for them to be punishable by state.
“We dont see clear evidence and its pretty much clear that neither Prophet Muhammad nor Sahaba punished blasmphers.”
Isn’t it clear that neither Prophet nor Sahabas (4 RGCs) punish homosexuals ?
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Was there any such case of homosexuality if you can shed some light? Their intentions about what forms of punishment needs to be given can be seen in these narrations.
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There are isolated hadiths about Prophet allowing the killing of blasphemers also.. but they are not accepted as part of religion by Ghamidi saab.
Are the narrations you posted above authentic and applicable as part of Islam ? If yes, then it is MUST for a Muslim state to punish homosexuals.
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One clarification Ghamidi shb is of the view that adultery punishment cannot be applicable to homosexuality. Tho no such direct punsihment in deen but state can debate on it and if they considers it punsible they have the jurisdiction to make laws against them. I hope this video will be helpful:
Jazakallah
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“Tho no such direct punsihment in deen but state can debate on it and if they considers it punsible they have the jurisdiction to make laws against them.”
State can make laws against anything.. but it will not be considered Islamic.
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Yes don’t need to label it. If the conscious of a society regardless of it whether it is a Muslims majority society or not. If they consider it punishable they can.
Jazakallah Khairun.
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Yes, we are discussing if it is Islamic to punish homosexuals/blasphemers in this world itself. We are not discussing what individual states and societies decide to make laws against.
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See first thing I dont think homosexuality and blasmphemy can be compared to each others. No doubt they both are sins but from criminal perspective they are two different genre.
Second thing, what is Islamic? What if something aint in the quran does that change anything? 🤔🙂
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Why can’t homosexuality and blasphemy be compared ? In fact blasphemy is more dangerous.. I never said they both are same genre, but how does them being different crimes make a difference if state should punish them?
Yes, if something is not in Qur’an, you have to show how it is Islamic?
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If It doesn’t ,then how do we know about these and they spread and we are discussing it not this level even the state level.the sin or crime we hide it is major reasons of spread of crime and sin.And fear of Allah (taqqwah) starts when we think no one is here to witness us but think Allah is my witness and refrain from the sin.this is the religion otherwise the state has already punish the criminals.
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No need a police we need to watch our selves and try to advise the people we know and especially our children, we should make sure that they know about their religious and social values so we can save them all of these.Individual is responsible for himself and his family. I agree that we can’t punish a person but condemn a sin. We have a right to have an opinion on it according to our religious and social values.
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Of course you must express your opinion according to our religious values. We all have this right. Yes, guide your children and teach them the right values. Ghamidi Sahib has said categorically that the State cannot punish any one for blasphemy or apostasy now.
When Qur’an has not declared a punishment for homosexuals and lesbians do we know more than Allah?
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Very interesting discussion. This is how we all learn from each other!🙏
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Isn’t the qoom e lut punishment show the Allah’s judgement about it and how big this sin is ?According to Islam not a person or group can punish any person only state can do that but there’s three state of emman when you see something is a crime, sin or zulam thantry to stop it by hand or power if you can’t then try to stop it by tongue and if you haven’t courage this then consider it a sin a bad deed.
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“when you see something is a crime, sin or zulam thantry to stop it by hand or power”
By this logic, a state can and should stop the following sins by punishing the one who commits them.
1. Blasphemy
2. Polytheism
3. Homosexuality.
Why apply different standard to them ?
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Sata has a powe to stop it and we can condemn it by tongue and if we haven’t courage it then consider it. Blasphemy is sin because it hurts a Muslims a large population of world even you are not a Muslim you should consider it a sin but it’s punishment is what the state should decide I am not one who decide I only can condemn. I am not against if state do something about it. I am against the groups and individuals who take the law in their hand.
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So, if I understand you correctly, you are not against state of Pakistan punishing the blasphemers, through the death punishment specified in the blasphemy law and according to the above hadith you posted, the state of Pakistan should stop sins like polytheism, blasphemy and homosexuality, by taking punitive actions against these people.
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We have to see if it cause the fasad and due to this many people suffer a state can decide. But we believe that if a man admit it a sin and promise he will not do that again there’s no punishment for him if he is doing purposely and trying for a big fasad that result is property damages lose of many innocent lives than what is your opinion on it
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So, if a man doesn’t admit polytheism, blasphemy or homosexuality as sin, then state can punish him for these crimes ?
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Not Pakistani state even America decide something in the against and favor of some issue we respect it’s decision and if it against Islam we consider it a bad thing for us and try to teach our children that it’s a sin according to Islam.
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Please teach good values to your children and who ever is ready to listen to you.
Recently a person was accused of blasphemy was brought to the court in Pakistan and before he could even plead his case to the judge, some one killed him in front of the judge. Who provided the pistol to the killer? A lawyer in the court room!
Is this what Prophet sws taught us?
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Yes I knew and I posted it because I think that it’s not a good teaching we should have tolrance and respect for the law and I already mention that we should respect those laws which are not according to our deen.But we can teach our children that’s a sin according to Islam like in America alcohol is legal we only teach our children that it’s prohibited in Islam. We are not taking action against who drink alcohol. Alhumdullilah our deen teach us tolerance so we respect other religions and try to say or do nothing against them. The minorities living in Muslim countries live a more happy and peaceful life than Hindus and budhiest countries. You can compare India to UAE.
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What you teach your children is your decision. What homosexuals and lesbians do is their business that is all. We do not pry into other people’s lives and pass judgement on their actions. We are not committing the sin. Let’s pray for them and if they are ready to listen to our advice then only we give it to them
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Yes I agree with you but a Muslim should know and consider it a sin that’s all. And shouldn’t support it. Our business is only that our children never think that it’s not a sin and keep them away from them. I saw many Christian who also condemn them and even hate this act more than Muslims.
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Agree there is no disagreement with that.
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I think this thread is not about whether homosexuality or blasphemy is a sin for Muslims or not. It is not even discussing if Muslims should NOT consider these as sins.
The thread is about whether it infringes on the rights of others and causes fasaad in the society, such that an Islamic state can punish people for these sins.
In other words, are these crimes against humanity or only sins in the eyes of God.
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If you do something not only against religions but nature than how can you say it doesn’t harmful for humanity.And why are you discussing it in a religious group?
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A religion is what A large group of human beings follow a belief if you do something against their beliefs then say how can be it harmful for humanity o man you are hurting a large group of people and playing their emotions and saying this. how innocent you are? And about other harm on society you should research on it.
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How is homosexuality hurting other people’s emotions ? I agree blasphemy hurts Muslims’ emotions, but how can homosexuality hurt their emotions?
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They’re ruining our social and family system you would feel this pain when some of your son will introduce a man as your daughter in law otherwise what would happen if you not respect your parents ,your moral values.
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Any act can offend my sensitivities if I want to get offended by it, even though homosexuals are not asking other people to appreciate their acts. Live and let live.
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Homosexuality is not against nature ..
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This is again a big purposeless discussion, but one thing if every religion condemn one thing it’s absolutely against humanity and nature
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Just because religion condemns it, it doesn’t make any act against nature and humanity. Religions condemn each other all the time.
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I agree.
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I say that all religions condemn this act no one or two so that’s it’s a decision of almost all humankind. Almost all religions value good practices which religion allows you dishonesty, cheating, stealing and other bad deeds. Standard and punishment can be different but they all want the betterment of humanity.
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Well, that’s not true.. many religions conflict with each other on what is moral and immoral, specially on sexual/marriage conduct, but that’s a different topic.
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Jazak Allah khair May Allah show us the right path Ameen stay blessed
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If being offended is a valid reason, then I can get offended by other people eating pork or drinking alcohol as well. Will the state start punishing people for eating pork and drinking alcohol too ? People can get offended by idol worship too.. will state punish polytheists ?
Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. I don’t see any reason why other heterosexual people get bothered by some homosexual people committing this sin. Let Allah be their judge.
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I agree.
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My question Is Qur’an has mentioned the punishment for polytheism, ( at the time of Prophet sws) murder, stealing, adultery so why didn’t Qur’an mention the punishment for homosexuals and lesbians? Allah is all knowing.
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In different cultures people do different things, they drink, they eat pork, they do Idol worshipping. They don’t impose their religion and customs on us, we need to do the same.
Live and let live!
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https://youtu.be/Oefc0_3uwRAThis should be the end of this discussion
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It still does not answer my question. Why didn’t the Qur’an specify a punishment for gays and lesbians?
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I also have a related question does Quran specify the punishment of child abuse, rape, bribery and for taking interest?
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Yes rape is fasad on earth and Qur’an says to give exemplary punishment to such perpetrators who do this heinous crime. Bribery and interest are haram and Allah will punish the culprits.Also it is the State’s duty to finish bribery, asking profit on loans and other evils in the society
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Agree in which verse Quran says that rape is fasad on earth pls give me a reference of the Ayat or surah I am asking only for my knowledge .
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There are instances where Prophet (sws) stoned rapists to death in accordance with Maida (5:33-34). To understand this in detail, please spend some time watching the videos posted in the following thread:
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Yes I listened it carefully plz answer the Rafia’s question as well I also want to know the answer.
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Thank you Jazak Allah
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JazakAllah Umer.
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Does the Qur’an mention any punishment for homosexuals and lesbians?
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No, not according to my understanding.
It is a sinful act no doubt as it affects one’s tazkiya that is the same reason why any such activity between husband and wife is also strictly prohibited. However, crime is something which infringes someone’s rights, wealth or life etc. People usually don’t debate over that. But because of Islam’s sensitivity to and importance of the institution of family, the act of fornication/adultery has been taken one step up from being sinful and categorized as a crime. It was a sinful act but declared as crime by Islam as it counters the overall socio-familial ideology of Islam and it can’t be left to the private matter of two consulting individuals. But at the same time, in order to avoid anarchy in the society, the conditions put forth to actually make someone punishable for this offence are also very balanced. One cannot simply accuse someone of adultery out of mere whim, rather, one has to produce four eye-witnesses to this fact and if these witnesses fail to produce corroborative evidence, then a severe punishment of Qadhf would be imposed on the accusers (which is maximum in all cases). The reason why this condition has been put in place shows that one can only be punished for adultery when one has committed such act in quite an explicit manner, thereby, posing a risk to socio-familial fabric that Islam wants to maintain within a society.
Now, if we look at homosexuality, it is a sinful act as said above, but the affect it has or potential of its affect on the same socio-familial fabric is less as compared to actual adultery/fornication mentioned above. This doesn’t mean homosexuality doesn’t effect the institution of family, it does of course, but its severity would be less than that of original adultery/fornication mentioned above. Therefore, this is the reason why fornication/adultery has been originally declared as a crime with actual punishment and this act being secondary to fornication/adultery has been left to the Muslim society to assess its impact and make necessary laws to prevent it, after judging its pervasiveness in the society and its affects on the same socio-familial fabric of the society. This falls under the same domain as alcohol consumption and blasphemy, which we all know are sinful acts but no formal punishment has been prescribed, but rather left to the Muslim society to make appropriate laws to counter them depending upon the societal impact these activities are having.
But no law can be made to give capital punishment except for murder or Muharaba (fasad-fil-arz). Any lower punishments can be agreed upon by the society through parliament.
This is how I see the whole scenario.
(I am closing this thread, please feel free to start a new thread)
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