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Why Just One Creator?
The universe makes it clear it is created. There must be a creator- one at least. Why couldn’t there be two creators who help each other?
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66 Replies
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Why Just One Creator?
updated 4 years ago
6 Members
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66
Replies
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Ghamidi sahab says that the universe requires one creator- what is your evidence for more than one? Why not? It’s so complicated and amazing so why not two minds helping each other to start of the Big Bang etc etc
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‘Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’
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Our natural disposition/fitrah tells us that there’s only one Creator. From the harmony of all systems in the universe we’re also bound to infer that there can only be one Creator. Since God is a metaphysical entity (beyond the physical universe), we have no verifiable or falsifiable way of ascertaining that our Creator has taken partners. The only possible way for us to conclude multiple creators was if God Himself somehow communicated this information to us. His claim, however is that He is alone. Quran comments on shirk and poses a challenge to mushriks that if they have any evidence of partners of God that they should bring it forward. Of course they couldn’t, because one simply doesn’t exist.
Quran 35:40
Translation by Asad
Say: “Have you ever [really] considered those beings and forces to whom you ascribe a share in God’s divinity, [and] whom you invoke beside God? Show me what it is that they have created on earth – or do [you claim that] they have a share in [governing] the heavens?” Have We ever vouchsafed them a divine writ on which they could rely as evidence [in support of their views]? Nay, [the hope which] the evildoers hold out to one another [is] nothing but a delusion.
Quran 46:4
Translation by Asad
Say: “Have you [really] given thought to what it is that you invoke instead of God? Show me what these [beings or forces] have created anywhere on earth! Or had they, perchance, a share in [creating] the heavens? [If so,] bring me any divine writ preceding this one, or any [other] vestige of knowledge – if what you claim is true!”
The purpose of religion as per the Quran is to guide us to attain purity (tazkiya). An ideological impurity at such a fundamental level would pose the biggest challenge for us in that regard. Since polytheism is a completely baseless idea and it has such a far reaching impact, therefore it’s also deemed by God as the biggest sin.
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An equally valid view from fitrah and analysis of the universe could be:
This is a very complicated creation and it is uniform.
So 1. There must be a creator. 2. It is so complicated that there must be a few of these creators that helped each other. 3. They did not disagree and helped each other.
If this view is to be rejected on the basis of the Quran only then why is shirk against fitrah?
Unless the above argument is not valid for some reason
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The basis of religion is not hypothetical concepts.
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But we will have to accept God before we accept religion. And through reason the above argument could be valid (unless I’m wrong). The only way to reject it is to first accept that religion.
So to someone who the deen has not reached- if he reaches this conclusion why would he be wrong?
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Please see my first response.
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Are you referring to ‘we have no way of knowing this for certain’?
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And anyway, we come to know of God by contemplating and making arguments as the ones I have made above. So surely it can’t be disregarded as a ‘hypothetical concept’. Of course once we accept religion we must submit to the book of God. But what about someone to whom it hasn’t reached?
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And the Quran itself told me to bring a trace of knowledge. So please tell me how I’m wrong?
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The only way I can think of to disprove it is this:
There is one necessary being. To say that a necessary being shares its attributes with someone else. Or that one of its attributes is present in someone else that means it is contingent as the attribute is not necessary if it can be or is present in another form.
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Ahmad please read the message with patience, sleep over it for a bit, let it absorb, and then if something is not clear then do ask. The response above already answers your questions.
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Shoaib please understanding there can only be one creator, if you say why not 2 then why not 3?
What is your logic for this?
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Ok sir @faisalharoon
‘The basis of religion is not hypothetical concepts.’
But the basis for the existence of God must stand to all arguments and hypothetheses presented to it.
‘Our nature/fitrat tells us that there’s only one Creator. From the harmony of all systems in the universe we also infer that there can only be one Creator.’
If our nature doesn’t conform with our reasoning what will we do? The harmony shouldn’t necessitate singularity in a creator. Why can’t it simply mean the 2 (or 3 or 4 etc) creators worked in harmony? Why, if there is a multitude of creators, would disharmony and anarchy necessarily arise?
‘We have no way of knowing this for certain, except if our Creator Himself tells us that He has partners. His claim, however is that He is alone. Quran comments on shirk and poses a challenge to mushriks that if they have any evidence of partners of God they should bring it forward.’
Where will we get evidence? From the thing we are trying to critically analyse? We don’t have any divine evidence. Even when we accept the Quran, accepting God is a pre-requisite. Otherwise you could just believe a highly intelligent non-human life form wrote it. So we have to designate the attributes of a creator so that we can confirm if what the Quran says can be accepted by reason, and analyse its arguments.
Sorry if I’m not understanding a basic concept.
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There can only be two ways that the idea of other creators could be found as true:
a) Someone has found some proof that there are parts of the universe that have been created by someone else.
b) God Himself has told someone so.
In Quran God is challenging anyone who claims more creators to bring forth evidence for either. I shared the ayahs above. One doesn’t have to read these ayahs as divine – the challenge still remains valid.
“If our nature doesn’t conform…” is not a valid question. Nature is universal – it’s the code that we’re born with.
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Or wait till the day of judgement.
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Quran 21:22
Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe.
I think this verse is the answer to your question. This verse rules out the possibility of more than one god. You can look for Ghamidi sb’s Tafseer of this ayat on his app or website. Both portals are not showing Tafseer in English for quite a few time so I am unable to give reference to it here.
If you are aware of Greek or Hindu mythology, there are several stories where gods fight each other, many times for difference of opinion and cause destruction to mankind and earth. These type of stories maybe there in all polytheistic religions. Allah SWT in this verse has pointed out to similar consequences of having multiple gods. The smooth and harmonious functioning of this universe is proof that there is one God. Allah SWT is not accountable for his decisions. There is no one to challenge his decisions. Had there been so, as rightly pointed out by the above-mentioned verse, both heaven and earth would have been harmed.
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So @faisalharoon when Ghamidi sahab speaks about the existence of God what is the point of contemplating that something is created and must have a creator. He just comes to the conclusion that this creator is mighty and magnificent whereas someone else could say since the universe is so complicated there must be a few creators.
We find the idea of minimum one creator by contemplating on the universe according to Ghamidi sahab. To is, according to him, is enough proof to imply there must be a creator. I agree.
Yes- no true divine book has ever given this idea. But the argument the Quran gives against it of disharmony and anarchy. I had a question about that basically- why couldn’t they work in harmony?
Both @faisalharoon and @Taha Do you accept the logical validity of the argument of creators working in harmony?
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This, according…*
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If someone makes such a claim then they will have to bring forth evidence of it. Knowledge – at least in the realm of religion – can’t be based on hypothetical ideas.
To the point that Taha made above based on Quran ayah 21:22 is also very valid. If there were multiple entities that were so powerful, then there surely would be signs of distress, unrest, and turmoil in the laws of nature and the universe in general. The calmness and harmony of the nature and the universe, however, point towards a single Creator.
To sum it up, from everything we know we can only infer a single Creator. If someone claims more, then the burden of proof lies upon them.
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Well, I don’t accept the argument that there can be multiple gods working harmoniously. IF THERE IS MORE THAN ONE GOD, THAN HOW IS GOD UNIQUE? I am satisfied with the arguments of Quran. I am from a place where majority practices polytheism and I am aware of many of their beliefs. Trust me if you’ll get acquainted with those beliefs you will understand why there can be no harmony between more than one gods. But again, for them they are satisfied with that. Many are satisfied with the arguments of 3 (father, son and holy spirit). Likewise, many are satisfied that there is no god at all. It’s all about your perspective, understanding and beliefs. Moreover, for logical understanding of oneness of god you need to dig into the field of theology. There are many theologians who have given many theories to prove oneness of god. They use various methods like teleological argument or Reductio ad absurdum to prove their point. This may provide you with satisfactory analytical reasoning to prove oneness of god.
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‘If someone makes such a claim then they will have to bring forth evidence of it.’
Take anything. When we look at a plane we don’t say it has one creator. Rather there were many people and machines that worked on it. If you take something simple. however, like a pencil or something lesser than that, you can say only one person created it. So it’s just the chance and possibility and likelihood that we are discussing here.
What is more likely, that there was one creator that created this infinitely complicated unvierse. Or that there are two or more that agreed and work in harmony- like the creation of a plane. Either way makes sense
‘If there were multiple entities that were so powerful’
That’s assuming that they are also greedy and careless. Again- that’s a claim you are making out of the blue.
The burden of proof is on me- OK.
I present my logical argument that a complicated universe could require many great minds to be able to construct it rather. It could also only require one. The point I’m trying to make is that there is no way to know for certain either of them.
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As I stated above, religion is not based on hypothetical ideas.
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The existence of God is based on the intuition we have been given to realise that this universe in created. The same intuition can lead to either one creator- or more. How is this intuition a ‘hypothetical idea’? Then the only claim we have to the existence of God (disregarding kalaam) is the ‘hypothetical claim’ that:
‘This universe seems created. So there should be a creator
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I’m simply saying your claim is correct but disregards a possibility of multiple creators
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Unless I am missing something. Is it this: That we realise from nature that there is a creator/s. So then we see ‘have these creator/s ever talked to us?’ and we see that the Qur’an is from the creator/s. It claims that there is only one. So here the case is closed. So we need the Quran to rule out this possibility.
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See for example, the following is an argument in theology that analyses why god is independent –
The Reason why the Necessary Being is absolutely independent and needless of reliance upon another is that dependence is a concomitant [lazima] of imperfection [nuqs] meaning that a dependent being [mawjud-e-faqir] will be that being which is Imperfect [naqis] in some manner, hence an absolutely perfect being , which is Perfection itself [kamal-e-matlaq] can never be tarnished or touched by need or dependence.
The following is an argument in theology for oneness of God –
The Numeric Unity is subject to division, addition, multiplication and subtraction whereas divine unity is not subject to division, addition or subtraction because that which increases or decreases cannot be perfect because if it was perfect, then why the increase, and if it was perfect prior to a decrease so it will no longer remain perfect after it. Increase and decrease by virtue of addition, subtraction, multiplication or division only occurs in the material world among material beings and therefore to assert a numeric unity for God would be equivalent to affirming the doctrine of assimilation [tashbih] whereby God will belong to a certain genus and hence be a member of a species just as the number “ONE” belongs to the genus of numbers and is a member of the Odd numbers species , and this is associationism [shirk].
The Necessary Being [wajib-al-wujud] is an ontological unity such that it is The Simplest Reality [Basit-al-haqiqa] devoid of all kinds of duality and multiplicity [kathrat] including the duality of existence [wujud] and essence[mahiyat], whole [kul]and part [ju’z], essence[zat] and attributes [sifat], because that which is a composite [murakkab] of existence and essence or essence and attributes can never be a True Unity[wahdat-al-haqqa]. God has no essence that is distinct and separate from His Existence , in fact His Essence is identical to His Existence. Similarly in Him there is no duality of essence and attributes , in fact His attributes are identical to His essence , such that the attributes are the essence.
Every existent apart from God is essentially-contingent [mumkin-bil-zat] and every contingent being [mumkin-ul-wujud] is a composite [murakkab] of existence [wujud] and an essence [mahiyat], but since the Necessary Being [wajib-al-wujud] has no essence that is distinct and separate from His Existence therefore He is nothing but Pure Existence [wujud-e-mehaz] , and a denial of His being Pure Existence can only lead to two possibilities namely either the acceptance of His being a duality of existence and an essence, or in affirming His Non-being , both of which are inadmissible. This therefore establishes beyond doubt the fact that God is nothing but Pure Existence.
Thus, you can find similar arguments in the field of theology that make an analytical analysis of nature and existence of god. So read some theories.
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I specifically tried to disregard kalaam. Yes a necessary being cannot have any shared traitd because that means the trait icontingent and therfore any being possessing them is not necessary.
But I want to see the Quran’s claim. How does the Lord of the Worlds argue that he exists? He does so by what Sir Faisal seems to be calling a ‘hypothetical claim’. The Quran uses the ‘hypothetical claim’ that if there was more than one creator, there would be anarchy
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The assumption that fitra/intuition can lead to multiple Creators is not correct. Only mind, if left unchecked, can lead us on that path. We have examples of many great mythologies and philosophical ideas that humans have created, but when we analyze them, we find no sound basis of those ideas.
Ghamidi sahab has explained fitra very extensively in these videos:
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The mythologies and philosophies are just a part of the human imagination that find no basis in reality. My claim cannot be compared to that. Is my basis not sound? That is what I am asking. How is my analysis of the universe incorrect in this matter?
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Let me break this down in logical terms:
Premise 1:
All complex things require multiple creators.
Premise 2:
Universe is a complex entity.
Argument:
Since universe is a complex entity hence it is created by multiple creators.
The argument is valid in it’s form, however, there’s no basis for premise 1.
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My premise 1 is
Most complex things require multiple creators.
The conclusion therefore is:
Since the universe is a complex entity we have no way to know whether there is one or more creators
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God is not presenting any hypothetical claim. What’s stated in 21:2 is an argument to the claim that there’s only one Creator. The claim itself is substantiated by our fitra, then reinforced by our experience, and then further verified by messengers and scriptures of God.
Is your fitra telling you that there are multiple Creators? Has majority of humanity’s fitra concluded that there are multiple Creators? Is there any part of the universe we see that looks out of the ordinary and evidently created by a different entity? Can we present any divine scriptures where God has given us any information about His partners? The response to all these questions is a resounding no. The only argument you’re presenting is that since the universe is so complex, there are multiple creators. That’s imagination, because it has no sound evidence. It will become worthy of investigation when you present any evidence for the argument.
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Allah tells us in multiple places in Quran about Oneness of Allah. Tauheed is the 1st condition to be a Muslim. It is part of یؤمنون بالغیب . So we have to سمعنا و اطعنا
In Hadith
Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “People will keep on asking questions until someone will say, ‘Allaah created the universe, but who created Allaah?’ Whoever encounters anything like that, let him say, ‘Amantu Billaah (I believe in Allaah).’”
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to one of you and say, ‘Who created the heaven? Who created the earth?’ He will say, ‘Allaah’” – then he mentioned something similar (to the previous report), and added, “And His Messengers.” [i.e., amantu Billaah wa Rusulihi = I believe in Allaah and His Messengers]
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to one of you and say, ‘Who created such and such?’ until he says to him, ‘Who created your Lord?’ When it reaches that stage, let him seek refuge with Allaah [say A’oodhu Billaahi min ash-shaytaan ir-rajeem = I seek refuge with Allaah from the accursed Shaytaan] and stop thinking about it.”
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan will come to a person and say, ‘Who created such and such…’” and he narrated the whole report. (Imaam Muslim, 134).
In these ahaadeeth (Prophetic narrations) we see:
Where this question comes from – from the Shaytaan;
How to deal with it, which is:
to stop pursuing these thoughts and these tricks of the Shaytaan
to say, “I believe in Allaah and His Messengers”
to seek refuge with Allaah from the Shaytaan.
It was also reported that one should spit drily three times to one’s left, and recite auzu billahi minash shaitan rajeem Qul Huwa Allaahu ahad
3. With regard to the prior existence of Allaah, our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has told us about this, for example:
He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Allaah, You are the First and there is nothing before You; O Allaah, You are the Last and there is nothing after You.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2713)
He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah existed when there was nothing apart from Him.” According to another report: “There was nothing before Him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari; the first report 3020; the second report 6982).
This is in addition to what is stated in the aayaat (verses) of the Qur’aan. The believer believes without a doubt, the non Muslim denies and the munaafiq (hypocrite) doubts. We ask Allaah to grant us sincere and certain faith with no doubts. And Allaah is the Source of strength.
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‘The only argument you’re presenting is that since the universe is so complex, there are multiple creators. That’s imagination, because it has no sound evidence. It will become worthy of investigation when you present any evidence for the argument.’
Premise 1:
Most complex things require multiple creators.
Premise 2:
Universe is a complex entity.
Argument:
Since universe is a complex entity hence it is maybe created by multiple creators.
So I should stop thinking?
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That was not my question. I am using his exact same reasoning and arriving to a different answer
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I don’t think that you have arrived at any answer. Maybe is just a hypothesis.
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Sorry sir- you are right. It is definitely just a maybe. But the claim of a single creator is also just a maybe when we are analysisng just the unvierse
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Correct. If only the universe is analyzed, and it’s analyzed only by computers and/or robots, then they could reach such an inconclusive answer. When we discuss things here, we’re discussing in the context of humans who are born with a-priori knowledge/fitra, who experience the universe in light of that knowledge, who have intellect and the power to reason, and who are aware of the history of messengers of God on earth.
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Why does fitrah only allow one creator- the majority of history is polytheistic
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As far as the history is concerned, it’s not as simple as saying that majority of history is polytheistic. Polytheism within itself is a very complex subject with differences in soft polytheism, hard polytheism, deism, etc. At best what can be said is that there was a dark period in history when people lost touch with reality and started getting more involved in polytheistic practices, just like today people are starting to gravitate towards atheism despite it’s baselessness.
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How can we designate what the fitrah is- we would have to go through thousands of years od research as Ghamidi sahab says. And how is it necessary that our fitrah conforms with the reality of the universe. For instance- some atheists completely disregard their fitrah. Forgive the crudeness but they say having intimate relations with your mother as long as there is no chance of reproduction is logicall not wrong. We still find it disgusting. So on what grounds do we refute them?
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Fitrah is a different discussion. Ghamidi sahab has explained the Farahi understanding in the videos below. Those who utter such absurdity about mothers generally deny the empirical evidence of a-priori knowledge/fitrah.
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The question still remains. How is the Quran’s claim of multiple creators necessarily leading to anarchy substantiated. Sure when greedy humans rule in parallel there is anarchy. But sometimes that’s not the case.
And also- we cannot arrive to any conclusive answer which indicates monotheism unless we have divine guidance due to the analysis of the universe being a conjecture based practice (we cannot test or see God).
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I think we’re also disregarding the Element of Knowledge. When you look at the realities inside and outside of you and conclude that there is a God/s. (Using fitrah only, ignoring the premise of religion).
Knowledge of the Past, Present and Future is what makes God – God. Since only an ever living and an ever subsisting entity could encompass All of the Knowledge of Everything to Ever Exist. (these are facts I don’t need religion to tell me).
So how do we negotiate this with more than one being having the same amount of knowledge?
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Why does a creator have to be all knowledgeable?
Why does a creator have to be God?
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Why shouldn’t the creator be all knowledgeable?
Shouldnt the all knowledgeable be the creator hence God?
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Why does this universe’s creator have to be God? Why couldn’t the creator of the universe have a God?
Eg the universe was made by person x and person x was made by God.
Unless we have scripture as Mr Faisal said we are bound to fall into the conjectures
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So then i would urge the one who thinks like this to push their thinking further to question who gave this person x the knowledge, power, wisdom etc to create the universe? Because this person x traces back to the creator so it doesn’t make sense for this creator to be less knowledgeable, less powerful, less wise than this person x, right?
Cause like this technically, my mom is also my creator. We all are greater and lesser gods in some or the other like this. But then again, intellect could still take us the farthest, to One Creator, who created as many creators one could imagine.
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@AhmadShoaib
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Final try! I hope that this helps.
https://soundcloud.com/ask-ghamidi/ask-ghamidi-discussion-30396/s-Ln2wOioCnSm
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You’ve said what I’ve said. That we have two proofs. One- a usual pattern of anarchy from a pantheon of entities. Two- God never telling us about any partners.
Both are needed to conclusively prove polytheism.
If we don’t have scripture (argument two)- we can’t reach any conclusive answers.
Do you agree?
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That is correct, without communication from God back to earth there’s only empirical evidence, but nothing conclusive.
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And your argument about egos and teams. This would only be true if you concede that God is egoistic
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This argument only kicks in if one makes a claim that they have evidence from experience that humans can assemble themselves in teams with each member having complete autonomy, and still create and sustain greatness. If the basis of the argument is human behavior then the claim should be in accordance as well.
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Two things:
Why does each member need autonomy?
Because just because we find this universe to be created it doesn’t mean that the creator/s have to be divine or have complete autonomy. Even if there was a team why does the head of that team have to be an uncreated omnipotent omniscient God?
Unless of course we dive into kalaam
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Please listen to the audio again, you’ll find your answer there.
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I think the answer is simply because God says so- otherwise all these conjectures are equally valid as imagination
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But isn’t this then changing things? Such as the ‘need’ of divine revelation to affirm tauheed. We can’t reach it simply by using our fitrah
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That’s what I’m trying to induce and it seems to be the case
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I hope you’re still asking Ghamidi sb, InshaAllah. And I’ll be waiting now more anxiously!
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My question will be along the lines of:
You say that kalaam is not needed so how can we affirm:
God does not lie.
Since we’re only allowed one question that’s what is important to me right now. Otherwise for the one creator thing without scripture perhaps you could ask!
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My original idea was asking about ‘Sharr’ evil. And how it could exist in the presence of God. I don’t buy the example of darkness being the absence of light. Are we saying evil is the absence of good? And God is all Good/Khayr and also present everywhere/encompasses all. So How could anything exist in the ‘absence’ of God?
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If you still have questions, listen to the audio yet again 😂
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But then ultimately that chain of creators/ chain of causes/chain of movers would trace back to A Single Creator, A Single Cause, A Single Mover (The Unmoved Mover).
Is this so hard to grasp or am i not getting something technical? 😂
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