-
Why God Will Never Forgive Shirk?
Just pondering on why Allah say, he will never forgive Shirk. According to Ghamidi Sahib, it is because someone is lying about Allah. That means the person has to know the truth about Allah before a person could lie about it. In that sense all illiterate people and idolaters who have not known Allah well are not lying and thus not committing Shirk.
Does that mean it would be mostly Muslims who after knowing Allah would likely be comitting real Shirk?
-
17 Replies
-
Why God Will Never Forgive Shirk?
updated 3 years, 4 months ago
4 Members
·
17
Replies
-
This entire discussion will be helpful in answering your question:
-
Thank you for the link. It mostly discusses why there cannot be multiple gods.
The conclusion has been..
1. Our nature tells us that there is only one god
2. If there were multiple gods they would have conflict between them
3. Harmony in the universe proves there is one god
4. No other god has claimed to be a god. Or at leat there is no other authentic book claiming this.
5. Allah didn’t tell us that he has taken partners
6. If there were multiple gods then there must be another creator of those gods as the ultimate god has to be uncreated as that is the definition of real god.
———————–
Response to the above conclusions..
1. Our nature tells us that that someone must have created this universe, but our nature does tell us that there must be one god. This argument doesn’t have much weight. It is not convincing.
2. Multiple gods having conflict doesn’t carry weight either. Not workimg harmoniously and having conflict seems to be human trait. Gods can’t be like humans.
3. Harmoney in the universe is not everyone’s perspective. Some think there Chaos and randomness in the universe. Even on Earth there are quakes, floods, storms and lot of Chaos….not harmony.
4. This is where convincing argument starts. I do not see another convincing claim from any other god.
5. Since only our Allah has convincing claim on being a god, he has not told us that there are any other gods.
6. This is the most convincing argument for one God.
————-
All above is good but it doesn’t answer my question. An illiterate person not familiar with Quran or detais of Islam cannot tell just by his nature or internal voice that there is only one god and not to commit Shirk. To commit shirk he need to know Islam in detail and then deliberately make partners with god to be avtially lying about god. So still I think only someone very well familiar with Quran can lie and commit Shirk; otherwise the person is just following blindly to a religious scholar or just guessing how many gods are out there.
-
These are your conclusions, and they don’t exactly reflect what I have stated in that discussion.
-
-
Also I think the title of this conversation is incorrect. The title should be “Does commiting Shirk requires knowingly lying about god”
-
There’s no question of “knowingly” as far as shirk is concerned. This is because we can’t “know” anything other than monotheism, as I have stated in the discussion referenced above.
-
-
The concept of One Creator is a-priori, i.e. innate in our nature and it is verified through various means as I discussed in the above discussion. Even for someone who has no knowledge of Islam, the concept of shirk has no objective basis.
-
Thanks Faisal. I and many other feel that the concept of one God is not innate. I never felt that there is one god; instead I learned it. There is no objective study proving that.
If the concept of one god and the concept of right and wrong was built into human nature, then there was no need for Allah’s guidance, holy books or prophets. Allah could have judged people based on compliance to their innate knowkege and guidance.
-
Please refer to:
Also Ghamidi sahab has explained fitrah in a lot of detail. Please see:
-
-
“If the concept of one god and the concept of right and wrong was built into human nature, then there was no need for Allah’s guidance, holy books or prophets.”
when does Qur’an said that this book is for your guidance, because you were without guidance and were bad without it!! and here is our messenger to teach you to how to become civilised!
Everyone know what they hide and what they follow!
But what if someone say, ‘i feel it ok to kill..’ and then he say it’s what i feel truth for myself? you may take example of Hitler
you may punish him, but can you warn him to fear to not to do this? since his conclusion is subjective and your conclusions are subjective too.
and this is the point where u need a common Judge to make difference. and here u refer to God to tell people to have fear of God he prohibited this…
so Why Quran is here with us?
وَهَٰذَا كِتَابٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّسَانًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّيُنذِرَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَبُشْرَىٰ لِلْمُحْسِنِينَ
“this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.”
-Quran 46:12
That’s it..
this is Quran’s primary aim.
now, I am going to answer your question.
a person who kill people is wrongdoer for u, and why? because you think killing someone is bad.. and the killer would say, no it is not bad, it’s good.
so here is a tie, none of you have upper hand, and this is the point where God sends Messenger towards People, when they were unable to make a clear decision. you may consider this condition as majority of people consider killing people is good and minority thinks it’s bad,, so nor democratically or by any means, you can’t stop killing
Let me refer this condition is Quran..
كَانَ النَّاسُ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيِّينَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ فِيمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ ۚ وَمَا اخْتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ بَغْيًا بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لِمَا اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ مِنَ الْحَقِّ بِإِذْنِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ
people was one community. Then Allah raised prophets as deliverers of good news and as warners, and revealed to them the Scriptures in truth to judge among people regarding their disputes. And no one disputed the Scriptures except the very people who received them after clear proofs had come to them—out of jealousy. Then Allah, by His grace, has guided the believers to the truth regarding those disputes. And Allah guides whoever He wills to the Straight Path.
-Quran 2:213
&
وَمَا تَفَرَّقَ ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوا۟ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ إِلَّا مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْهُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَةُ
Nor did those ˹people˺ who were given the Scripture become divided until after there had come to them clear evidence.
-98:4
NOW I WANT YOU TO FOCUS ON WORD “OUT OF JEALOUSY.”
Wrongdoers or killers were jealous of what??
they were jealous that now the people who consider ‘killing people for no reason’ bad, Have the upper hand that they received Book of God that challange us to refute it, and a messenger that have Noor with it, and clear evidences.
And now we can’t have with them endless Debate that whether killing is good or bad and that we both are talking subjectively.
Now, do u want to know what is the new TOPIC of Debate now?
قُلْ فَأْتُوا بِكِتَابٍ مِّنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ هُوَ أَهْدَىٰ مِنْهُمَا أَتَّبِعْهُ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
Say, “Then bring a scripture from God which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful.”
-Quran 28:49
since those who think killing is bad Refer God with them with Ayats(signs)
Here is your answer, the people who think that ‘killing people for no reason’ is ok, they Created their God to refer their speech to it, and to make a statement that ‘we have Divine Speech too’,,.. or they made their Some xyz relation to God and talked on Behalf of God.
And with their Talkings that ‘kiling is good’ because their saying is from God too, hence now we again have a tie, and now again we can debate.
But you know After this argument nothing remain anything as common between People,, God is only possibility which can unite all of the people.. and if they divided God too.. then there would not be any solution. And since those who Created false God claim that thier Gods will protect them eternally then go away with your God,, the Creator of universe would never pardon them for their Lie.
Associating People with God is similar too, if someone say our government is cirtified by God, by only their mere saying then it is clearly association(shirk).
and those who associate with God their speech is easily refutable, because their speech would contradict, and God cannot contradict.
عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِذَا خَطَبَ احْمَرَّتْ عَيْنَاهُ وَعَلاَ صَوْتُهُ وَاشْتَدَّ غَضَبُهُ حَتَّى كَأَنَّهُ مُنْذِرُ جَيْشٍ يَقُولُ ” صَبَّحَكُمْ وَمَسَّاكُمْ ” . وَيَقُولُ ” بُعِثْتُ أَنَا وَالسَّاعَةَ كَهَاتَيْنِ ” . وَيَقْرُنُ بَيْنَ إِصْبَعَيْهِ السَّبَّابَةِ وَالْوُسْطَى وَيَقُولُ ” أَمَّا بَعْدُ فَإِنَّ خَيْرَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَخَيْرُ الْهُدَى هُدَى مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرُّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلُّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ ” . ثُمَّ يَقُولُ ” أَنَا أَوْلَى بِكُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ مِنْ نَفْسِهِ مَنْ تَرَكَ مَالاً فَلأَهْلِهِ وَمَنْ تَرَكَ دَيْنًا أَوْ ضَيَاعًا فَإِلَىَّ وَعَلَىَّ ” .
Jabir b. Abdullah said:
When Allah’s Messenger (may peace he upon him) delivered the sermon, his eyes became red, his voice rose, and his anger increased so that he was like one giving a warning against the enemy and saying: “The enemy has made a morning attack on you and in the evening too.” He would also say: “The Last Hour and I have been sent like these two.” And he would join his forefinger and middle finger; and would further say: “The best of the speech is embodied in the Book of Allah, and the best of the guidance is the guidance given by Muhammad. And the most evil affairs are their innovations; and every innovation is error.” He would further say:, I am more dear to a Mumin (Believer) even than his self; and he who left behind property that is for his family; and he who dies under debt or leaves children (in helplessness), the responsibility (of paying his debt and bringing up his children) lies on me.”
-Sahih Muslim : 867a
so did u understood Associating with God comes into play when u literally associate your xyz creation or words with God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
btw some words more,, if u can understand from below Words of Quran then it’s ok..
الَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِهِ هُم بِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ ﴿٥٢﴾ وَإِذَا يُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ قَالُوا آمَنَّا بِهِ إِنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا مِن قَبْلِهِ مُسْلِمِينَ
Those to whom We gave the Scripture before it – they are believers in it. And when it is recited to them, they say, “We have believed in it; indeed, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed we were, [even] before it, Muslims [submitting to Allah].”
-Quran 28:52
إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ
Indeed, God does not guide the wrongdoing people.
-Quran 28:50
وَنُنَزِّلُ مِنَ ٱلْقُرْءَانِ مَا هُوَ شِفَآءٌ وَرَحْمَةٌ لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۙ وَلَا يَزِيدُ ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ إِلَّا خَسَارًا
We send down the Quran as a healing and mercy for the believers, but it only increases the wrongdoers in loss.
-Quran 17:82
So no Killers become believer, but what God wills.
So After the Scripture People became divided,, there then Became two kind of people who is Muslim(submitted to God, and following truth), and Who is Kafir(those who were hiding truth).
And God knows best who is kafir and who is Muslim all Account is with him. we don’t know
Sir you should read Surah Bayyinah to Clearly understand
And if the person thinks that he is truthful that what he believes is truth and doesn’t hide anything, then..
قَالَ اللَّهُ هَٰذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ ۚ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
Allah will say, “This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness.” For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
-Quran 5:119
Salam..
-
@altmash Thank you brother Altamash, great information and I would like to discuss more, but it may have side tracked a little. I will address your post separately.
The question started from “In order to commit Shirk a person has to lie about Allah”, > then > “To lie about Allah, a person has to know the truth about ONE Allah”, > then > “No, the person doesn’t have to know about Allah to commit Shirk as knowledge of ONE Allah is built into every human beings”
Now we are trying to ascertain… if the knowledge of ONE Allah is built into every human being and thus if someone commits Shirk, the person is deliberately lying about Allah.
-
وَلَا تَقْفُ مَا لَيْسَ لَكَ بِهِۦ عِلْمٌ ۚ إِنَّ ٱلسَّمْعَ وَٱلْبَصَرَ وَٱلْفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ كَانَ عَنْهُ مَسْـُٔولًا
And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed, the hearing, the sight and the heart – about all those [one] will be questioned.
-Quran 17:36
Do we have God’s knowledge inbuilt of us??
God taught all the names to Adam(pbuh) so if we have any word in our mind then we have knowledge of it.
a sign(ayat) is that we feel peace in God’s rememberance.
What God means, an eternal, intelligent and uncaused agency or being.!
Don’t try to Associate any number with God, numbers are also somehow our understanding and a try to simplify nature. instilled in ourselves by God .. and a fact is this Numbers doesn’t exist. its merely a philosophical thing. you can never say that there are ‘2 banana’, because 2 doesn’t exist, every banana is unique in itself, there cannot be two equal banana at same time.. there can be ‘x banana’ and ‘y banana’ but not 2x or 2y banana.
the best example to not associate any number with God is shown beautifully in Surah Ikhlas. you only have to keep the eye on word ‘Ahad’ which means ‘One’. in 1st and 4th ayat.
قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ﴿١﴾ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ﴿٢﴾ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ ﴿٣﴾ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ ﴿٤﴾
“Say, “He (is) Allah, the One. || Allah, the Eternal, the Absolute. || Not He begets and not He is begotten. || And not is for Him equivalent any one.” ||
So, God is one but there no one equivalent to him and nothing can give example of him
لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ ۖ
There is nothing like unto Him
-Quran 42:11
so and why would any person would associate his speech to God who is eternal and uncaused, but only to make himself & his theology superior over people and to do some mischief?
btw if you would find some person saying that, this apple is from God, then he isn’t wrong.
‘if some person say, a Human become old and his teeths become useless it is God’s system’ then he isn’t wrong
and if some person thinks to look at sky because he think sky belongs to God and do some zikr in his own way, he isn’t doing any shirk.. and prophet used to look toward sky too. and he used to remember god. and sky is a creation too -Sahih Bukhari : 6215
like wise if some person do feel attachement with any body or idol or stone or river, that it actually belong to God, and from it i get many benefits.. then there also no blame on him nor people were prohibited to face toward it and to do some zikr…
People do remember god in their own way, and to God belongs best of names(asma ul husna)..
you should know the meaning of Word ‘Ayat’, it means sign, evidence,, and only wrongdoers hide the signs
and ,, commonly religious people hide the signs(ayat) of God in nature.
and Scientists hide the Signs(Ayat) of God in Self, in depth of spirit
سَنُرِيهِمْ ءَايَـٰتِنَا فِى ٱلْـَٔافَاقِ وَفِىٓ أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ ٱلْحَقُّ ۗ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُۥ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ شَهِيدٌ
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
-Quran 41:53
Just keep the keypoint , donot follow anything which u have no knowledge of!! & Quran is not special, God says to take This Quran as Hadees(report), and if you find it truthful then submit to it,, and be Submitted(muslim) till death.
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
So what report will they believe in after ˹denying˺ Allah and His revelations?
-Quran 45:6
(Some more words,) Ayat means signs and anything become sign when u find truthfulness in it.
Quran reaches to people as Hadees(report) and when they believe in it, it becomes Ayat(sign) for them, if you really don’t find truthfulness in Quran, then be honest with yourself and don’t hide what your self says. because on the day of judgement only truthfulness will benefit. , reports, talkings , debate will not.
قَالَ اللَّهُ هَٰذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ الصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ ۚ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۚ رَّضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ
Allah will say, “This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness.” For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
-Quran 5:119
and listen.. God will hear testimony of people’s reproaching(disappointed) soul. so if your soul is not disappointed with you right now then there is actually no blame over you!!
لَا أُقْسِمُ بِيَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ﴿١﴾ وَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالنَّفْسِ اللَّوَّامَةِ ﴿٢﴾
By no means!I present as witness the Day of Judgement.
And by no means!I present as witness this reproaching soul [within you].
-Quran, Surah Qayamat.
-
Associating anything with God, needs a lot of courage,, that your statement would not be refutable, and statement would be eternal, and statement is from alll knowing,,
and if you statement proven wrong by Other Signs(ayats) of God, then that will be shirk..
e.g. what we see is sun and it rises everyday..
now an association statement : sun will not rise on wednesday because God told me
and Sun rose on wednesday.. ,, so this means Lord of Sun did According to his rule, and the person who associated with God was more likely a liar..
-
@altmash Brother Altamash, please summarize your point. I read your entire post carefully, but I got lost in the details and I am unable to pinpoint the central point.
Although you first statement puzzled me. You stated “when does Qur’an said that this book is for your guidance, because you were without guidance and were bad without it!! and here is our messenger to teach you to how to become civilised!”
After the statement you referred many verses and many are about guidance.
Yes, the Quran or prophets were sent to give good news and warn people, but also to guide people and resolve disputes.
-
-
Assalam u Alaikum
I have a feeling that Ghamidi Sb shares your thoughts. I will refer to some of his relevant responses later in this post.
To begin with, my personal understanding is as follows:
Such major crimes or sins cannot merely be determined by observing the event(s) at arm’s length (whether on Earth or on the Day of Judgement). There has to be a causal link between one’s act or omission and the actual event. Additionally, our common sense or collective human wisdom guides us that a person’s knowledge and intent ought to play a key role in determining his/her guilt of the crime thereof. For example, a person who went hunting may have accidentally killed a human being without knowledge of the latter’s presence. The aforementioned cannot be convicted of murder due to the lack of his knowledge and intention. Therefore, the remaining two choices are that the accused will either be acquitted on genuine grounds or he may be convicted of negligent or reckless manslaughter depending on the circumstances of the particular case (I hope that I am on track so far).
Interestingly, I have noted Ghamidi Sb using similar elements in some of his discussions & interviews where the issue was about determining the guilt of an individual’s serious crimes. For example, in answering a question relating to some of the disappointing behaviours of young Muslims, Ghamidi Sb’s counter-argument was along the lines of “how can we blame them if we have not raised them according to the ideals that we seek?”. If memory serves me right, I also recall him using a similar argument in reference to the present day non-Muslims who may not have received the Divine Message in an appropriate manner (I’ll try finding specific links if you need them).
In conclusion, my understanding of Ghamidi Sb’s view on determining an individual’s guilt of certain serious crimes/sins is that only Allah and his Divine Authorities (i.e. the Messengers and Prophets etc.) ought to know the actual (level of) knowledge and intent of a person. However, the last Messenger is no longer among us. Moreover, the circumstances experienced or perceived by every individual on Earth vary on a wide grey spectrum that displays a mix of similarities and uniqueness. We also know that there is no compulsion in religion. Accordingly, it is befitting that judgements relevant to such serious crimes be reserved till the Day of Judgement where Allah, the Just and the All-knowing, will reveal the truth. In reference to the Day of Judgement, I recall Ghamidi Sb making comments along the lines of “Ho sakta hai keh un (Non-Muslims) ko sahi tarah se Allah ka peghaam mila hi na ho aur Allah un ka uzer qabool kar lain…”.
I will perhaps add to the above that present-day individuals, Muslims or Non-Muslims, may struggle in their test of Earthly Shirk or other similar serious crimes if their attitude is that of arrogance, and outright refusal to sincerely consider different points of view, and if they repeatedly commit serious crimes despite given many opportunities for reversion.
-
Thank you all for great information and lots of help 🙂
The remaining inconclusive question was if the sense of one Allah is innate?
First I thought the concept of one god is not innate, but when I really looked deeper down, I found that when I was an atheist an I wondered about my creation and the universe, and if I considered a god I naturally never imagined multiple gods. It was always one god in my mind. But, I was born a Muslim, perhaps my thoughts were biased. Someone must have conducted a study asking born atheists if they ever consider a god and then if they imagine one or multiple gods. If someone know of such study, please let me know.
So if such a study reveals that the sense of one god is innate, then anyone commiting shirk will be commiting it deliberately and thus lying about god. This god may never forgive this lie if the person doesn’t ask for forgiveness before death.
-
I have personally not enjoyed objective Atheistic views on whether the sense of one God is an innate feature. In fairness, some of the popular Atheistic arguments do hold merit against the viewpoint that the sense of one God is innate. For example, one of the common arguments is expressed as, “which religion or which God should we begin with or follow? There are so many of them; all are claiming to be the rightful ones etc.”. However, I often find these arguments poor in taste due to the lack of genuine effort in the original query. These arguments are often deployed as counterattacks against the “primitive God-believing individuals”. Since “God” is a no-zone, one hardly observes a genuine effort made by hard-core Atheists of the modern world in this regard. However, we may be able to observe or collect data regarding individuals who may be Agnostic or similar etc.
Regardless, I do not reach the conclusion that the sense of one God being innate implies that individuals deliberately attempt to commit shirk. This is because an individual’s intuition of something being right or wrong is likely to be influenced by external factors such as their upbringing, the environment, and the circumstances in which they are brought up, their subjective perception of the delights or sufferings of this world etc. Additionally, the merits of justice require that mere intuition of an individual ought neither to guarantee paradise nor hell. Instead, the actual effort of the individual, coupled with other factors such as his level of knowledge, ought to count. As I understand it, Islam also stresses upon the sincere effort of individuals in seeking the truth and fulfilling their rights in relation to others during this short-lived life.
-
I agree with you brother Abbas.
I think more objective study will be for native Amazonians, or native Aboriginis or other remote tribes that are not exposed to any religion or outside influence to see if the sense of one god is innate.
I think there might be some such study as Dr. Zakir Naik refers to in one of his video.
But logically thinking there can only be one creator, because if there were more than one gods, then there must be a creator of them. God by definition is uncreated, otherwise there would be another god who created the god.
-
Sponsor Ask Ghamidi
