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Why Did God Create Anything At All?
Why did God create anything at all? I think if nothing was created at the first place, that would have been the best case scenerio where there would be no suffering.
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34 Replies
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Why Did God Create Anything At All?
updated 3 years, 4 months ago
7 Members
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34
Replies
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No one can answer Why all this is created? No clear statement is given as far as my knowledge goes
The notion that nothingness is better than suffering is incorrect. Because at any given moment in time suffering is a lot less than Happiness!
Less people die than alive ones, less illness than health, less girls get raped / abused than loved, less children molested than cared for, etc. You can pick any particular suffering, people who are NOT suffering are far more than suffering ones
This also negates the ideas if there’s no God because there’s evil.
Abundance of happiness dictates an existence of God and presence of some evil dictates Him allowing humans to use free will. Natural calamities aren’t evil but reminders of a far great power’s (God) existence and His control over this world
Philosophically, happiness is far more prevalent in this world than suffering
Philosophers and religions that promote this idea of “there’s nothing but suffering in this world” have the world view that there should no evil in this world. So if there’s any evil than all happiness is an illusion and suffering is the reality
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The notion that nothingness is better than suffering is absolutely correct. The absence of suffering is good, the absence of pleasure is not bad. This is not the point whether happiness is more or less than suffering. Point is there is suffering regardless of more or less. Why would God create some suffering when there is nothing wrong with no-existence at all?
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In the name of God, the all-knowing.
As I see it!
One analogy used by Ghamidi Sahib is, “Can a goat say what a human should do or be?”
A goat sees a human as another being either a predator or not. It behaves in its own capacity which is greatly inferior to a human. A goat cannot judge a human.
Like wise a human sees God like another being a predator or not. Human behaves in its own capacity and that is infinitely inferior to God. A human cannot judge God.
HE says “there is nothing like HIM,” leaves us with no way of comparing HIM or HIS motives.
If I said, “it was better if I was not born,” does it change the fact that I am and I am born and I have to make the best of it.
It is shortsightedness that leads us to false assumptions. We were created to be awarded eternity and bliss not merely to live in this world and die. Everything makes sense when the afterlife is put in view and everything understood in its light.
3 things are vital, believe in God, in afterlife and doing good.
HE created everything because of HIS “rahmah” and HE wants to reward us with HIS mercy with never ending bliss and placed a test to attain it.
Denial of the test doesn’t make the test go away, it still remains. Forfeiting the test doesn’t make it go away, rather makes us losers.
🤲⚘
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This is right that with my limited knowledge I might not be able to comprehend God and His plans. But no matter how limited my knowledge is, I know for certain that if I was never created, there was nothing wrong or bad in it. Whereas, now (after being created) I have to go through some suffering. Obviously, I should make the best of it, but that does not undermine the fact that I will go through some suffering which I (before being created) was not in need of, nor did I ask for. Therefore, I can conclude that it would have been better for me if I was never created because I don’t want this little bit of suffering of life.
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Peace!
Ma’am, you agreed for all this “suffering,” That is why the Quran says انه كان ظلوما جهولا – verily he (man) has always been prone to the most wicked, the most foolish.
By the way, “Suffering” does not come out of existence itself, it comes out of the task we ourselves agreed to undertake (The Quran, 33:72). So, for example, you won’t know of any “suffering” angel.
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Well, we are only capable of suffering once we exist. It is not possible for someone, who does not exist, to suffer. Likewise, I can only undertake any task once I exist. My question remains: why would God create us who then have to undertake a task in which there is suffering etc., wouldn’t it have been better if we were not created (by not being created, by the way, we were not being deprived of anthing, there was no loss to us non-existent)?
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Peace!
Ma’am, God created us and gave us the choice whether we wanted to participate in this task or not. We could have chosen not to suffer. We didn’t have to. Commenting on our choice, Allah says, “verily, he has always been prone to the most wicked, the most foolish.” This is not to say that our choice was foolish, but that we probably did not really think it through and would come to complain later.
God could have created you and asked for whether you would like to participate in this task and you could have just said no. Then, you wouldn’t have to suffer, but you would have existed. Maybe, you would have been quite satisfied. God knows. So, the creation is not the cause of “suffering,” but, rather, the task which we ourselves came to accept.
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To me, the options are clear.
Not existing or existing forever in bliss.
A psychologist might say that if the starting principle is of rejection (a negativity) then the effort put in to succeed will be halfhearted and hence a bad outcome.
Acceptance comes first before any effort. Consider an athlete with high morale versus the one who is already demoralized. Doubt in the first principle cannot create excellence.
No doubt we are free to choose. I choose to accept whole heartedly so that I can excel and gain the “medal.” I choose to channel the positivity and morale boost gained from accepting the first principle. I choose to channel the endorphins released by positivity to live a hopeful and beneficial life.
Such is my little understanding in my small brain and I am content with it, Alhamdulillah.
🤲⚘
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I agree having positive attitude towards life makes your life even more better – this is psychological domain. From a philosophical point of view I think it cannot be denied that if we (you, I, all humans, animals) never existed, there is nothing bad in it.
You said, you are free to choose, I doubt that. Existence was imposed on us – we did not choose to exist.
And not-existing at all is never bad, whereas existing forever in bliss (which comes at a cost of this test in life in which there is possibility that one can fail is a gamble in itself).
Imagine, you never existed. This forever bliss means nothing to you (you who does not exist).
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As I see it!
We can never know by mere philosophical discourse if I agreed or not, to exist.
The Qur’ān says I did. It gives evidence of it in our innate desire to believe in A diety.
The Precursor question would be, Is Qur’an evidence? The Precursor to that question is, Is there a God?
If there is no God then there can’t be a divine book and hence no transcendent evidence or witness to our choosing to bear the burden of a test for greed of the reward.
The real question is what is it that I am implying, indirectly, in the question of non-existence. Again going back, with my limited knowledge how do I know what is better versus the being with infinite knowledge who certainly knows what is better?
A thought to ponder.
I am very pleased and impressed by answers and questions. Loved this discussion thoroughly.
Stay blessed, always 🤲
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It is not possible that a non-existent being can agree to exist. How can God ask me anything when I don’t exist?
And with my limited knowledge, I know for certain that in this life I will go through some pain and suffering; and I also know for certain that if I never existed at all, there is nothing bad in it – I (who does not exist) was not being deprived of anything (happiness or bliss of afterlife etc)/there was no loss to non-existent me. I know these two facts, no matter how limited my knowledge is. Therefore, it is pretty easy to conclude that not existing is always better.
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If we can clarify the main point of discussion and then evidence for it then may be we can arrive at some conclusion
1. Why do we exist? This question can not be answered because we don’t have the data. It’s similar to ask why water is wet? We can’t answer this question either because we can not explain why the experience of water touching our skin means wetness to us. These questions sound simple but impossible to answer. Similarly, we can not say non existence is better because we do not know what non existence is cuz the only thing we know is existence.
2. It’s mentioned nothingness is absolutely better than suffering. Complete statement would be nothingness is better than small amount of suffering and abundance of happiness. Suffering can not exist without happiness. Just like one cannot define female without defining male first or vice versa.
3. The above should be proven before we move forward. We cannot defy an argument before ascertaining that’s it’s true. If the argument is wrong then there’s no need to defy it
4. Is Quran/Islam is relevant or not? Meaning can we use it as evidence or not. If not then it’s a philosophical query which means eternal bliss or eternal hell don’t matter cuz philosophy can’t provide an answer
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1. We don’t know why we exist – thats right. But we know what non-existence is. We don’t have to experience it. I know that before my birth (creation), I was non-existent. In order to experience non-existence, you want to exist? really !!! By default, you are wrong. Non-existence is no experience.
2. Right. The value or essence of happiness means nothing to non-existent. Happiness is only the concern of already existent being. Meaning, first you have to exist in order to look for abundant happiness. Therefore, I did not mention happiness very much because I am talking from the perspective of non-existent being. Happiness loses its value for non-existent, because they are not being deprived of any happiness (because of the obvious reason that they don’t exist). Whereas, already existent beings are related to suffering in their life. Even if they have less suffering and more happiness, they still have to suffer.
3. I tried to give my view in above points. Let me know if I made any wrong statement.
4. To me it does not matter whether you want to include any argument of eternal bliss or eternal hell in the debate. But I think no matter how long we stretch the scope of our discussion, I would be precise around existence vs non-existence whose conclusion would be this: non-existence is always better than existence of (even a little bit of) suffering.
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Let’s do a thought experiment.
I have a problem that needs a solution. I have an equation that can help. The equation is
a+b(c)/4=n.
I want to prove that this “n” is a wrong answer.
To prove my self conceived idea, I will argue that the constant “c” is not valid and the variable of division is also not valid hence a+b is not equal to n.
What I am doing is self serving prophecy. I refuse to accept that the solution can be reached by using the formula with all its constants and variables. When we do this in a scientific research, we call it bias. An earnest quest is to find the truth, even if it is against my original idea.
The fallacy I fall into is giving a value of “absoluteness” to a faulty and incomplete knowledge. My vanity hinders me from accepting that the infinite Wisdom is right.
This is where my reasoning ends and a circular argument begins.
Continue to explore and learn and go where the truth takes you. ⚘🙂
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I know that there are many fallicies where we as humans fall into. I don’t just think that I am doing any of that. You are using argument of ignorance to reject what I am stating. Just because we dont know many things, does not mean we know nothing. We know some facts very concrete. Thank you!
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This what u said
The notion that nothingness is better than suffering is absolutely correct.
And I said
Similarly, we can not say non existence is better because we do not know what non existence is cuz the only thing we know is existence.
In other words, we r only conscious of this current state of being and since this all we can know, we can’t explain/experience any other state of being (existent or non existent alike) Since we can not know non-existence, so we can’t say it’s better. Before birth isn’t a good example. We all know we did exist just not in the current form
You have stated your opinion but no proof or argument. Plz give any philosophical/logical or scientific proof.
The point to prove is that nothingness/non-existence is better than small amount of suffering + abundance of happiness
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We know what non-existence is. We don’t have to experience it. I know that before my birth (creation), I was non-existent. In order to experience non-existence, you want to exist? really !!! By default, you are wrong. Non-existence is no experience.
Happiness (even a lot of it) means nothing to non-existent. Happiness is only the concern of already existent being. Meaning, first you have to exist in order to look for abundant happiness. Happiness loses its value for non-existent, because they are not being deprived of any happiness (because of the obvious reason that they don’t exist). Whereas, already existent beings are related to suffering (even very little of it) in their life. Even if they have less suffering and more happiness, they still have to suffer.
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Please refer to the following responses by Ghamidi Sahab:
Discussion 37854 • Reply 37855
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Thank you very much. But my question was not explicitly addressed. I think it is always better to never exist (be created) at all because as a non-existent being any happiness or blissfull afterlife in heaven does not matter (or is irrelevant) to non-existent me, which means there is nothing bad or wrong if by being non-existent I miss all that happiness or afterlife bliss etc. because of the obvious reason that I am not being deprived of any happiness or bliss. Whereas, by existing or being created I suffer to some extent in this life (even if I exclude the possibility of hellfire in afterlife). Therefore, I would not choose this life where there is suffering (in other words in a life which is capable of suffering).
In simple words, the absence of pain/suffering is good, the absence of pleasure/happiness is not bad.
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This notion of nothingness is not wrong. Yes, if we wouldn’t have existed it would have been better. So if GOD has created us and we all know HE is all knowing and HIS knowledge is not finite. I as a creation of GOD have firm belief that HIS decision of creating me can never be wrong because I don’t know what’s in life that will be started after this mortal life. Once i have experienced afterlife that has been called real life by GOD in HIS book then i might be able to say anything about GOD’s decision to create me. The fact that my perception now (this Life) and even then (afterlife) wouldn’t matter is still there.
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Yes, you are giving argument from ignorance. Thanks!
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You started the discussion with why we are created. We agreed that we can not know the answer
I’ve been trying to understand your idea of non existence. That’s why I tried to discuss “existence” with you. Because you r implying consciousness to non-existence by giving it identity (non-existence being) and morality(suffering / happiness). If you r truly non-existent (physical & metaphysical) then there is no reason to discuss what is good or bad for you because you do not exist at all!!
The idea of good or bad will only come under discussion if there’s an existence ( virus, bacteria, fungi, lower animals, higher animals, human, angels, jinn, a thought, an imaginary character etc etc) since you do not exist, there’s nothing good or bad for you
If this is your idea then go ahead, this idea is neither wrong or right cuz even right or wrong don’t matter for non-existent.
However, if a question is that it’s better not to be created as a conscious being to understand and go through good or bad times then that’s a separate discussion.
In conclusion, to discuss what might be good or bad for non-existent is pointless
Your last statement “In simple words, the absence of pain/suffering is good, the absence of pleasure/happiness is not bad.”
We, humans, behave completely opposite. We chose small suffering for greater happiness or to avoid more suffering. For e.g. people suffer through discipline of exercise & diet to enjoy a good body and longevity. Similarly people quit smoking to avoid greater pain of lung disease or cancer( I am purposely avoiding religious/ moral bliss or pain examples)
You have yet to give an explanation that why avoiding smaller suffering is worse than enduring small suffering and enjoying greater happiness. You’ve stated your opinion repeatedly without reasons.
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Multiple issues have been raised in your line of argumenst. I will concentrate on one for now. You said: “The idea of good or bad will only come under discussion if there’s an existence ( virus, bacteria, fungi, lower animals, higher animals, human, angels, jinn, a thought, an imaginary character etc etc) since you do not exist, there’s nothing good or bad for you.”
My question on this is (completely hypothetical – plz dont take it personally): If I kill you, do you think I have done something wrong with you?
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No, you have done something bad for you. All death is certain, vehicle of death is irrelevant
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Well, I did not ask whether I have done something bad for myself or not. My question was if you think I have done something bad with you?
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I answered it already,
No, you have done something bad for you. All death is certain, vehicle of death is irrelevant
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okay, according to you I did something bad for me. But did I do something bad with you as well?
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I am sorry, I was trying to answer quickly so may not have been clear.
No, you didn’t do anything bad to me. All death is certain so vehicle of death is irrelevant.
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If – acc to you – I haven’t done anything bad to you, why does Allah command to hang/kill the murderer?
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Brother that’s a separate topic and we can discuss it in a separate thread. Why don’t we focus on discussion at hand
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It’s a very valid question. If I haven’t done anything wrong with you, why am I being punished?
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Absolutely it’s valid but also irrelevant to the discussion at hand
If we begin discussing this then we’ll be sidelined
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No, it’s relevant. Because we both are not agreed on this point, it needs to be dealt, so that we can then continue further.
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The original question about why is there anything at all was answered by Ghamidi sahab in the references posted by Umer Qureshi sahab above.
This discussion has side tracked into other issues so it will be closed. Ask Ghamidi Code of Conduct allows one objective question per discussion. Should other issues need to be discussed, please create separate discussions by posting one objective question for each discussion.
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