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God – An Idea Of Burning People With Fire
I am a Hafiz e Quran and believer (not by chance but with logical standpoint) but there is just one thing I can’t pin my head around. There is this personality who is just and lovable and creator etc etc etc all the good things about him but there is just one thing avout him that he burns people. I am a medical doctor and I have seen people with burns injury that is horrible way of punishing anyone no matter how much sinful that person is you just cannot to that to a human being. Look at west there is debate about even death penalty and there are rights of criminals 3ven. No one can fathom about burning any human man or woman for any kind of offence, the maximum penalty is death but in that you still can’t kill anyone by burning that person it’s just unimaginable, so how come a God, a loving God and a just God is ready to put people in fire and mentions their screams and their drink as blood and pus. In this world of we can hear about a person who has all the good traits but he burns people out of justice nobody would love him. I want a logical explanation for this thank u
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25 Replies
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God – An Idea Of Burning People With Fire
updated 2 years ago
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25
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Refer to Discussion 59718 • Reply 59764
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Just like degrees of Jannah, there will be different degress of punishment as well. And the punishment of fire is only for one cadre of criminals who will be guilty of arrogance and denied the message of Allah knowingly out of their sheer arrogance.
Please see: Discussion 38044 • Reply 38056 AND Discussion 67386
Justice as an ethical value has had always been an absolute value but providence of complete justice in this world has had always remained debatable because of the limitations we face in this world. On the day of judgement, all these limitations will be removed and no one will be punished unless there is ‘completion of proof’ (‘itmam-e-hujjat‘) done on them. Therefore, after a criminal has been proven to be as such beyond any doubt and if the crime is of a nature resulting from mere arrogance of a person, then principally God has every right to punish such individuals in the manner he deems fit, because an extreme crime has been committed against God and it is only God who can decide punishment for such extreme crime.
Please see: Discussion 37854 • Reply 37855, AND Discussion 37854 • Reply 37856
And despite warning of eternal Hell for such criminals, a room has been left open by God for their punishment to not be eternal and there lies a chance that their punsihment might come to an end:
Please see: Discussion 71595 • Reply 71622
Another thing which should be kept in mind is that matters of heaven and hell belong to the unseen world which is yet to be created, and we have been given very limited knowledge about its content and its mechanism based on our limited view of this world, that is why they are known as ‘amoor-e-mutashabihaat‘. Therefore, it cannot be said with absolute certainty about the nature of such punsihments. So the punishment of fire and how it would actually manifest there, is something that cannot be answered with absolute certainty.
Regarding the debate on eliminating death penalty altogether in the west even for criminals like murderers and rapists, there lies ethical issues which go against the basic foundation of justice, both at an individual level and at a societal level.
Please see: Discussion 985 • Reply 4538
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‘because an extreme crime has been committed against God and it is only God who can decide punishment for such extreme crime.’
If someone commits an extreme crime against another person like mutilation for example- can that person decide any punishment they see fit? Can they choose to have that person burnt and then cooled for a bit then burnt again?
Or do we think that there should be an equal response and a punishment that fits the crime? Eye for an eye?
If someone is arrogant to an authority, in our fitra we would think it good that the authority let such a person go and do nothing- as it shows that the authority is ‘beniyaaz’ or ‘ghaniy’ and does not require the punishment of a mere peasant that is running their tongue.
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“in our fitra we would think it good that the authority let such a person go and do nothing- as it shows that the authority is ‘beniyaaz’ or ‘ghaniy’ and does not require the punishment of a mere peasant that is running their tongue.”
Speak for yourself, my fitra wants the Being that is also “Al Muntaqim” to teach the one who’s running their tongue a lesson as well. Rebellion in the Kingdom of a Perfect Lord is unacceptable, no matter how “beniyaaz” and “ghaniy” He may be. Anything less doesn’t do justice to His Greatness.
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By teaching them a lesson do you mean burning them alive?
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Whatever the Wise, Just and All-Knowing Lord decides.
But the basic demand of justice is that, they must be answerable i.e they can’t be ignored for their rebellion. After they are made to stand in the court, it’s up to the Judge to decide based on principle. He may forgive them or punish them appropriately, but calling them to account is not wrong for Him in any way.
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‘Whatever the Wise, Just and All-Knowing Lord decides.’
This is a circular argument. If the ‘wise, just and all-knowing’ says 2+2=5 then you will say it is because he is ‘wise…’
What we must do is judge the statements and punishments according to wisdom justice and knowledge
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It wasn’t an argument to begin with though but alright.
“What we must do is judge the statements and punishments according to wisdom justice and knowledge”
Agreed but I’m afraid a general statement like this means nothing much. Clearly you have something more interesting to say, so say it.
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(This image is clearer in my mind with the idea of a parent thank a ruler to be honest- because a parent does kind of ‘own’ their child).
So if a child starts to love another man as though he is his father instead of his real father- we would expect the father to punish the child I agree that seems fitri.
But burn the child? This is not just at all. The punishment of words should be equivalent words or equivalent physical force.
It’s a very clear difference in my mind- punishment of burning for a couple of days for a rapist murderer mutilator seems perfectly fine. Punishment for a rebellious child giving the rights of his father to another man should be nowhere near that.
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Interesting point but there is a few things I must highlight:
1. Father-child example doesn’t work because while another man can do what your father can do, no one else can do for you what Allah has done. Choosing a god besides Allah and saying that so and so is keeping me alive is falsehood. It’s worse than just loving someone else. It is straight up replacing credit.
2. Violation of father’s right or any creation’s right is not at the same level as violating God’s right. Burning a child for not giving his father his due right might be harsh but now the question is that a Being far far far more valuable (may as well be infinitely more) than a father had His right denied. Now what?
3. You have no knowledge, wisdom or concept of justice that can tell you what should be the response to when a God’s right is violated. You may determine what to do as you did when a human right is violated but how do you do that for Allah? Especially since man has proven to struggle to determine proper justice for humanity in general, how can we even hope to determine a concept for Allah?
4. Now Allah isn’t gonna wait for you to evolve to the point to find the answer to this. He gave you the answer. Now it is the question of how much you trust this Being.
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1. Yes the analogy is not perfect that is true.
2. This is an interesting argument, if you violate a random woman’s right on the street that would be lesser than your own mother’s given that she is more ‘valuable’ to you. However, the issue is that can someone be so valuable- leading to any violation of their rights meaning eternal burning?
3. We have a very general idea of levels of justice for human beings. We certainly don’t burn anyone for anything. We don’t mutilate someone if they swear for example. So this is just using that same principle with analogy to God.
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2. Well I don’t mean “valuable” as literally. I meant that, Allah should be not imagined on same level of a father or creation. Like cursing a stranger, cursing my father and cursing my God are completely different scenarios and I hope you agree with that.
“However, the issue is that can someone be so valuable- leading to any violation of their rights meaning eternal burning?”
Allah isn’t just “someone”, He is the One that deserve such sacredness.
“We certainly don’t burn anyone for anything. We don’t mutilate someone if they swear for example.”
You mean nowadays right? But human history….well….isn’t very pretty when it comes to punishments and justice systems. Human concepts are just not reliable. Only thing you can determine is this, sin against the Lord of the Universe is far far far more greater than sin against creation. That is the limit of your concept of justice.
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‘However, the issue is that can someone be so valuable- leading to any violation of their rights meaning eternal burning?’
I will repeat this as I don’t understand how your reasoning links but not thinking about God as a ‘someone’. Also how does ‘sacredness’ justify someone being punished by burning?
As for history I don’t think swearing at someone ever held the punishment if mutilation thought I’d be interested in the actual evidence for this
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“‘However, the issue is that can someone be so valuable- leading to any violation of their rights meaning eternal burning?’
I will repeat this as I don’t understand how your reasoning links but not thinking about God as a ‘someone’. Also how does ‘sacredness’ justify someone being punished by burning?”
I do not know about your thinking process but I will say this, if I tell most people that a torturer of innocent should burn in Hell for a long time, most would agree that Allah’s judgment is correct. There is definitely some violation of human rights that deserve Hellfire, people are willing to agree with this (I don’t know if you will as well) i.e they are okay with Hellfire for major crimes, just as long as Allah doesn’t punish people in same for smaller crimes. Usually when you clarify that Allah isn’t burning every single sinner in same way, people are okay with Allah’s warning.
In that case if burning in Hell is justifed for violation of rights of lowly creation like us in some scenarios and now keeping in mind that Allah is Lord of the Universe, the One who has greater status than any of His creation, then violating any of His rights should logically result in a greater punishment than just burning in Hellfire. The priniciple is: Violating right of creation deserves harsh punishment and violating right of Allah, who is greater than creation, deserves harsher punishment.
“As for history I don’t think swearing at someone ever held the punishment if mutilation thought I’d be interested in the actual evidence for this”
Not exactly for swearing but brutal punishment (like boiling people alive) exists, whether it was treason (including speaking ill of authority) or even for just being a thief.
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‘The priniciple is: Violating right of creation deserves harsh punishment and violating right of Allah, who is greater than creation, deserves harsher punishment.’
Because the torturer causes pain and suffering. We cannot cause God pain and suffering so thats where this parallel you are drawing or rather not drawing fails
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1. First of all, it’s not a parallel. It’s a simple principle that any one who believes in Qur’an has to accept. Like it’s not my conjecture, it’s a major point in Qur’an that Allah is Greater than anyone. Violating creation’s right deserve punishment and violating the right of Lord of Creation deserves greater punishment. Hurting isn’t part of the equation, doing injustice as in, not fufilling a right is the point here. And violating Allah’s right is a pretty big deal because concept of justice and all rights originates from Allah Himself. That’s just how sacred of a Being He is, you can’t just rebel against Him and not get a serious punishment for it.
2. Secondly I made similar question on this forum a while back so lol, we finally got here as I predicted. Truth is, you don’t need to hurt Allah to become worthy of punishment. I can plan to rebel and try to assassinate a king but if I failed to kill the king, then that doesn’t mean I haven’t violated any right, I would be branded as a criminal and punished for treason. So you can choose to rebel against Allah, you will fail obviously but just because Allah is unharmed doesn’t mean that you aren’t a criminal. You had the intention, you violated His right and insisted upon it all the way to death (as is the case for those guilty for eternal Hell). You will face conseqeuences of rebellion. You will face consequences of violating a right, whether it is creation’s or Allah’s. Whether someone was hurt or not, doesn’t matter. The intention was there, the attempt was there, so consequences must be faced.
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We punish attempted murder and actual murder differently as far as I am aware.
We punsh those who harm others because of the pain it causes, not because of some abstract violation of rights.
Let me ask you what I think is the crux of this issue: what does it mean to ‘rebel’ against Allah? Why is it bad?
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“We punish attempted murder and actual murder differently as far as I am aware.”
Irrelevant point because I can just argue that Allah is only punishing attempted rebellion because that is only variant of rebellion He can face. The alternative would be that He got overthrown which is never gonna happen.
“We punsh those who harm others because of the pain it causes, not because of some abstract violation of rights.”
This is the secular view yes but Allah’s view is that violation of rights is injustice itself. Man’s own self becomes impure as the example of Ghamidi Sahab that a mother might not need her son but if the son is cursing her everyday then the result of immorality does affect him. Immoral people will not enter Paradise. Only place where people who have ruined their souls will go, is place of punishment.
Furthermore the above example of difference between atttempt murder and actual murder also causes an issue. Suppose if we stop someone from bombing a place, the potential victims never notice but you have caught the bomber beforehand and the evidence of plan and equipment with him. Now are you really just gonna let the terrorist go, just because no pain was caused? No! Intention to do harm is enough to be guilty. We aren’t good at catching intentions but Allah is but the concept that attempt and intentions are enough to brand someone guilty and worthy of some punishment is there.
Let me ask you what I think is the crux of this issue: what does it mean to ‘rebel’ against Allah? Why is it bad?
Quite frankly I would say Allah knows better. But some points you can make are:1. Act of rebellion is bad in itself. Sensibly this is where the argument should end but I know you want more so.
2. It is injustice that Allah who gave us everything and you choose to just rebel against Him instead.
3. If there is injustice and Allah has made it upon Himself to be Just then He will answer this injustice no matter what.
4. As I explained above rebellion is less about consequences and more about intention. If someone wants to challenge Allah, the Merciful Lord of the Universe then that is not tiny thing. The idea was to go overthrow an authority. So just like attempted rebellion against a king deserve some punishment, punishment for rebelling against King of Kings must exist. Whether the rebellion was successful is not important, just that the attempt deserve appropiate retribution.
5. Rebellion is to break your bond with Allah, your Sustainer. If you made this decision then Allah will consider your wish and withdraw His Rahmat from you. Withdrawing His Rahmat means…….Well you know what it means. No forgiveness, no Paradise, no place to live, nothing. Only place for such people is destruction or Hell.
6. Because Allah said so. I mean if this life is a test, and there is really two paths, either to be Obedient or Rebellious then Allah simply declared that choosing path of Rebellion will result in failing of test and consequences will follow. -
‘Now are you really just gonna let the terrorist go, just because no pain was caused?’
We would punsh him in a lesser way. We don’t know if he might’ve at the last second changed his mind. You could say Allah knows exactly what we’d do. But he has chosen to test us on our actions, not his knowledge.
You have given some reasons as to which rebellion may be bad- but what IS rebellion? We can’t overthrow his authority so what actually is rebellion against God? The quran says kufr in contrast to shukr not rebellion
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“We would punsh him in a lesser way. We don’t know if he might’ve at the last second changed his mind. You could say Allah knows exactly what we’d do. But he has chosen to test us on our actions, not his knowledge.”
Don’t wave back and forth here. Are you going to punish the bomber or not if they have accepted that their intention was to kill innocents but since no pain was caused, would you punish them or not? Because if you are, then Allah can punish you for attempt at rebellion.
We can’t overthrow his authority so what actually is rebellion against God? The quran says kufr in contrast to shukr not rebellion
Kufr is rebellion. Rebellion is as small as insisting upon a major sin until we die despite warning/advice and never repenting to as major as killing Allah’s prophets and waging war against them. If one is sinning against Allah, never repents until they die then it is considered rebellion against Allah. People who do this seek to remove Allah’s influence on the land and replace it with their desires. So when you betray Allah for your desires and live your life like that then that is rebellion, that is kufr. You made it clear that you will not fufill Allah’s rights while living on His very own earth when it is clear that anyone who lives on Allah’s earth must be obedient to Him.
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And why is sinning bad? Getting into meta-ethics here but I think its relevant
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Yea it is getting meta-ethics here, we may need a Zavia series of own soon lol.
Considering sin are referred to as “zulm” and I think in that way, it is considered as simply “injustice.”
Like being good is to be fair and do justice. To do sin is to be unfair and do injustice.
Allah gave me everything so I am obedient to Him. So I am good and I am doing justice to Allah.
If I choose to be disobedient and live my life like that while enjoying His blessings despite knowing how wrong I am, I am doing injustice to Him.Harm isn’t the factor. It’s that my very nature demands that in order to be pure, I must be good. I must be just to everyone as much as I can. And if I do sin, I am doing injustice, I am corrupting my nature.
Corruption is bad, corruption is bad because it closes the door to Paradise and it leads me to Hell.
What purifies me and what corrupts me seems to be determined by Allah as part of His test. I think that is the bottom line.
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Ya so divine command theory ashari perspective
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I get the justice argument clearly and I know that the criminals of worst sorts cannot be left unaccounted for sure i have nothing against the justice and I know very well that these matters of hell and heavens are “mutashabihat” too. But Burning human being? Mentioning of their burned skin and their drink of being blood and pus is just unthinkable. I mean we as a society are growing day by day and humanity is finding more humane approaches towards everything and I have nothing soft for rapists, mass murderers etc but deciding to burn a human is just horrible and no way of treating any human being of worst kind, we cannot burn any living creature let alone a human being, so The God who has alot of attributes which we know through Quran and I know “Al qahhar” is one of them but people we are talking about burning men and women with fire and they are having drinks of pus and blood, what kind of personality has arranged such jail cell, no matter how good attributes that personality has but this act alone is just I am unable to comprehend
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Just throwing this out there- if you take a different approach to the Quran you can just say this was leading onto the ideas already present from ahlul kitaab beforehand and God just used them to scare the Arabs further. The reality may be something completely different of what hell actually is.
Though you would have to really depart from farahi principles for that and go more khalafullah style
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