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  • The Right To Punish A Wife

    Posted by Umer on June 24, 2020 at 10:40 pm

    In recent ‘Q&A session with Ghamidi Sahab from questions selected from AskGhamidi platform’

    Question:

    (Part-1) In the context of ‘Right to punish a wife’, is it compulsory for a Muslim to adopt this strategy in case of rebellion/nushuz from wife in all circumstances and is it compulsory to follow all steps in the same sequence?

    For answer, please refer to the video below from 1:11:04 to 1:13:14

    (Part-2) Can the word وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ which is used in the verse (4:34) be used in a symbolic or metaphorical sense as per Arabic linguistics?

    For answer, please refer to the video below from 1:13:15 to 1:17:39

    https://youtu.be/SsqKGldSqgM?t=4264

    Faisal Haroon replied 4 years, 3 months ago 5 Members · 52 Replies
  • 52 Replies
  • The Right To Punish A Wife

    Faisal Haroon updated 4 years, 3 months ago 5 Members · 52 Replies
  • Umer

    Moderator June 24, 2020 at 10:41 pm

    (Article written by Javed Ahmed Ghamidi on the contemporary issues related to the said matter)

    Marriage is a contract in which it is the responsibility of the husband to generously provide for the expenses of his wife and children. He is required to deal with them in a way which is in accordance with the norms of decency and those of sense and reason, and which is based on graciousness and courtesy, and in which the requisites of justice and fairness are fulfilled. Similarly, it is required of a wife that she should adopt an attitude of harmony and obedience towards the husband and protect his secrets as well as his honour and integrity.

    Like other contracts, the nature of the contract also requires that if any of the parties violates it and in spite of counsel and advice, rebuke and reproach is not prepared to mend its ways, then it should be punished. This punishment can be meted out by a court and by the elders of the family. The Qur’an has given this right to the husband also. It says that if a wife becomes rebellious by defying his authority, then he can resort to three options to save the family from dismembering:

    First, he should urge his wife to mend her ways. The word used by the Qur’an is وَعَظ which means that she can be admonished and also scolded to some extent in this regard.

    Second, intimate marital relations with her should be suspended in order to communicate to her that if she does not mend her ways, she might have to face severe repercussions.

    Third, she can be punished physically.

    A question arises about this last option: with a change in society and civilization, if exercising the first two options does not bear results and a husband is left with no alternative but to adopt the third option, can a state bind him to not take this step himself and consign this matter to a court of law?

    The opinion of this writer is in the affirmative. This is because this alternative is merely another way of following the directive of God and does not annul the directive. It does not make a difference if to reform the wife the punishment is meted out by the husband, the elders of the family or a court of law. It is the will of God that if to save a family, a wife needs to be punished, then she should be punished. It is only a reformatory measure and nothing more.

    (Javed Ahmed Ghamidi)

    (Translated by Dr Shehzad Saleem)

  • Umer

    Moderator June 25, 2020 at 9:38 pm

    The Understanding of the Verse 4:34 of Quran:

    The right given by the Quran to the husbands to physically punish their wives in certain circumstances is an issue which has become a subject of hot debate. The issue needs to be understood in its true perspective. The Quran says:

    وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا(34:4)

    And as for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them [first] and [next] refuse to share their beds and [even then if they do not listen] punish them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted and Mighty. (4:34)

    The following implications of this verse need to be understood in their proper perspective:

    1. This measure can only be resorted to when a wife starts to challenge the authority of the husband and threatens to disrupt the family set-up. It is in fact a last resort to protect the institution of family from breaking up. It must not be resorted to in anything less in severity than a rebellious attitude from the wife. This rebellious attitude is termed as نُشُوز(nushūz) by the Qur’ān. It has not used the word “disobedience”. Any difference of opinion or altercation is not to be resolved by this procedure. Disagreements and disputes must be settled mutually. It is only when the wife stands up against the authority of her husband that this procedure be employed.

    2. Before resorting to physical chastisement, the two previous stages mentioned by the Quran (4:34) must elapse. The husband should first of all admonish his wife and convince her to give up her defiant behaviour. He should exercise all the patience he can muster to urge and beseech her to change her stance. If after repeated pleas and continuous admonition over a considerable span of time, the wife continues to persist in her rebellious attitude, he has the authority to go on to the second stage by avoiding marital contact with her. This detachment, it is clear, is a form of reproof, and a very strong appeal to the wife to correct herself. Again, this attitude should continue for a substantial period of time so that the point is driven home. It is highly unlikely that most wives would persist in their arrogance after these two initial stages. In all probability, patience, forbearance, and restraint would have conquered their hearts. However, even after this stage, if a wife refuses to accept the authority of her husband, the husband has the right to finally resort to gentle physical affliction.

    3. If the husband is left with no alternative but to physically punish his wife, he must be very careful in this regard and must not wound or injure her. He should remember that this physical chastisement is similar to the one a mother gives to a rebellious son or the one a teacher gives to an unruly student. He must be aware that in case he misuses this authority in any way, he would be held responsible before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behaviour to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard.

    4. It finally needs to be considered that all rights must be exercised with prudence keeping in view the circumstances. Exercising one’s right is never obligatory. There can be circumstances in which a person chooses not to exercise this right.

    (Dr. Shehzad Saleem)

  • Seemi Shafiq

    Member July 16, 2020 at 9:08 pm

    When a woman is challenging the husbands authority the Quran has established a regimen what happens when it is reversed? When a Husband transgresses his Duties?

    Pls quote the nass of the Quran

    Thnx

    • Umer

      Moderator July 18, 2020 at 4:32 am

      If a husband is not fulfilling his duties and fails in discharging rights of a wife properly, then of course state being the ultimate head of the society can snub him, punish him or take any appropriate measures to bring him to his senses.

  • Seemi Shafiq

    Member July 18, 2020 at 4:43 am

    Pls cite the nass of the Quran

    Where is this inferred from?

    • Umer

      Moderator July 18, 2020 at 5:11 am

      قُلْ إِنَّـمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّيَ الْفَوَاحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَالإِثْمَ وَالْبَغْيَ بِغَيْرِ الْـحَقِّ وَأَن تُشْرِكُوْا بِاللّهِ مَا لَـمْ يُنَزِّلْ بِهِ سُلْطَانًا وَأَن تَقُولُوْا عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُوْنَ.

      Tell [them]: “My Lord has only forbidden all lewd acts, whether overt or hidden and usurping the rights of others and wrongful oppression [1] and that you worship with Him what He did not sanction and that you fabricate something about God what you know not.” (7:33)


      إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَنْ تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَى أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُمْ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَنْ تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُمْ بِهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا (٥٨:٤)

      God commands you to hand over the trusts to their rightful owners and to always pass judgement upon men with fairness. Verily this is from God an excellent admonition. For God is He who hears and sees all things. (4:58)

      These verses make it clear that usurping anyone’s rights / oppression is haram and a sinful act; in the latter verse, the state has been ordered to provide justice to the aggrieved parties with utmost fairness. This is the real responsibility of a state as per Quran. So if a wife is deprived of her rights and husband transgresses his position, then it is responsibility of state to interfere and make sure that wife is given her due rights and husband’s transgressions being dealt with properly.

      ________________________

      [1] Qualifying the word “oppression” with “wrongful” is meant to portray its heinous nature. It does not mean that there are some types of oppression which are not wrongful. Every type of oppression is wrongful per se. Thus this word is also used to qualify the crime of killing prophets of God.


  • Seemi Shafiq

    Member July 18, 2020 at 9:02 am

    Thnx

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 20, 2020 at 7:39 am

    Hi,

    I am a non-Muslim and I obviously, don’t agree with this verse’s ruling . I have a few questions to ask on it.

    1. Is there a limitation of light beating in this verse ? Many Muslims say it is only symbolic beating which is permitted here, and not physical beating, i.e. just a siwak/handkerchief can be used to beat your disobedient wife. How true is that ?

    2. What is the exact meaning of the word “Nushuz” ? When do we say that a woman is committing Nushuz which forces the husband to take these 3 steps ? Does a simple disobedience from the wife to her husband warrant these 3 steps ?

    3. What is the punishment for a wife who denies her husband the right to have sexual intimacy when he wants ? Can the above verse be applied in such a case ?

    The answers to the above questions will be helpful. Thank you.

  • Seemi Shafiq

    Member July 20, 2020 at 9:12 am

    I think Umer or some other will answer

    To me this means that the man has the unfettered right over what is rebellion

    Whilst the woman has to prove her point of view and then get a decision

    Have kept this in abeyance till I get a better explanation

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 20, 2020 at 12:01 pm

    what is your point ?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:21 pm

    This should help understanding the entire issue and this ayah in proper context.

    https://youtu.be/TBYa8F8cCUw

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:21 pm
  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:23 pm
  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 20, 2020 at 12:26 pm

    Can a master beat his female slave if she challenges the authority of her master ?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:28 pm

      This question is irrelevant because slavery has been abolished by the last prophet SAW of Islam.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 12:30 pm

      Prophet himself and his companions also owned female slaves.. he never said owning slave is haraam.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:34 pm

    Please see this discussion on slavery in Islam.

    Discussion 1324

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 12:36 pm

      Can you please provide a clear Qur’an verse or Hadith where owning slaves is considered haraam. Not freeing slaves, but disallowing owning slaves altogether.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:44 pm

      One has to understand the whole point that’s being made in the discussion I shared above. Things of this nature, especially slavery which is in engrained in the entire system can’t be abolished with one ayah one fine day. Where do you think those slaves would go the next day having no means to survive? Please watch the videos I just posted to the bottom of the slavery discussion.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 12:47 pm

      I am not asking for a verse of immediate prohibition.. but a gradual prohibition will be fine too.. Did Allah say that in future slavery is going to be haraam ?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 20, 2020 at 12:52 pm

      If Quran was a list of halal and haram, I’m sure slavery would be in the list of haram. Unfortunately, that’s not the nature of the book. If you have any other questions regarding slavery please post them under the slavery discussion.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 21, 2020 at 2:50 am

      I brought slavery into it, because as far as I know, a master in Prophet’s time also didn’t have right to force his female slave to sexual relationship.. now here a wife is forced to obey her husband’s demand of sex, and according to some scholars, husband has the right to punish the wife if she refuses (also, angels will curse the wife if she does it ).

      Doesn’t it mean that a wife has lower status than a slave in the regard of consent and physical beating?

      PS: Yes, slavery is a different topic and should be discussed in appropriate thread, however I don’t think it was declared haraam by God.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 20, 2020 at 12:58 pm

    Please tell me if the husband is immoral rebellious misbehaves all the time what is the wife suppose to, just bear everything patiently and suffer ?

    Surely Allah has made justice for both husband and wife

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 10:52 pm

      I personally don’t agree that beating the wife will help the marital relationship at all .. she is not a child, but an adult. I don’t know of any self respecting woman who would agree to love and honor her husband when he beats her on disobedience. I think this verse is wrong to be applied on all wives.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 1:02 pm
    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 21, 2020 at 2:39 am

      Sorry to say, but here Ghamidi saab is giving his own relationship advice, and not giving Qur’an/Hadeeth references for the same.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 1:03 pm
  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 20, 2020 at 9:00 pm

    Thank you so much for this clip. My problem is in reality how much that Ustaz Ghamidi has said is being practiced. Wife bashing goes on daily. In these time of pandemic domestic violence is at another level. I can never forget the story which appeared in the New York Times a few years back of a Pakistani taxi driver who hit his wife so hard because he didn’t like the meal she had cooked that she died. Is this Islam?

    Yes domestic violence is all over the world, but aren’t we suppose to practice what our Prophet sws has taught us?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 20, 2020 at 10:15 pm

    Absolutely, we’re supposed to practice what prophet SAW taught us. I think this problem can only be countered through educating people about their religion.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 20, 2020 at 10:29 pm

    The problem is in our madressas boys are beaten and abused. They grow up becoming abusers of their wives. You may change the educated class but who will teach the uneducated mullahs and others illiterate who consider wife bashing their right. Allah has made them superior ?

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 11:15 pm

      I am not sure if we can blame “uneducated” Mullahs for it, when Allah clearly mentioned it in the verse that beating disobedient wives is permitted.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 20, 2020 at 11:40 pm

      Blaming others would only result in reactionary psychology and would do more harm than good. We should instead expend more of our time and energy in educating all the classes of the society, to the best of our ability, to understand the true essence of religion and also helping them easily understand the religion itself; and to clear any misconceptions they must’ve had about the religion.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 20, 2020 at 11:44 pm

      👍👍👍

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 20, 2020 at 11:50 pm

      That’s right.. however just to make it clear, I am not a Muslim. So, obviously, I don’t believe Qur’an is the word of God. However, I agree the true interpretation of the religion is a must. It seems, different scholars have different interpretation of the verse 4:34.

      Anyway, my point remains (after watching the explanation of Ghamidi saab) that this verse is inherently anti-feminist and I don’t imagine any self respecting woman to accept the prohibition of challenging the authority of her husband, and then being beaten if failing to do so.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 21, 2020 at 1:08 am

      There will always be disagreements between people regarding different ideologies and differing interpretations of those ideologies. But attempts should be made that those disagreements are not based on misunderstandings of a certain concept. In my humble opinion, the misunderstanding in this case arises when we see the relationship of husband and wife in the context of current concept of equality and current relationships prevalent in the societies. Islam purports equality, but the foundation of that equality is based on innate qualities a gender possesses in general, this article [1] might help you in right understanding of our point of view. As long as you understand the concepts portrayed in their true spirit, you have every right to disagree with them.

      ________________________________

      [1] “Men and women are the two building blocks of the smallest unit of the society: the family. The Almighty has made them such that they complement one another. In other words, they are not duplicates of one another; they are different from each other. By complement is meant that they complete certain voids present in each other. This also is precisely why they need one another to form a family. The Quran says that for a healthy society, both sexes should acknowledge each other’s inborn qualities and characteristics and not become jealous:

      And in no way covet those things in which Allah has bestowed you His gifts more freely on some of you than on others: Men shall be given a share from what they earn and women shall be given a share from what they earn, and ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah has full knowledge of all things. (4:32)

      In other words, what the Quran is implying here is that the real sphere of competition is not natural abilities for they have been bestowed by the Almighty; it is the sphere in which one uses these abilities to earn for one’s self some reward in the Hereafter in which men and women should strive and compete with each other.

      After spelling out the correct attitude in this regard, the Qur’ān, goes on to say:

      Men are the guardians of women because Allah has given one superiority over the other and because they [— men —] support them from their means. (4:34)

      According to this verse, men are more suited to head a family because of the fact that they are physically and temperamentally more suited. This suitability has been ingrained in their nature by the Almighty. Their physical strength and mental disposition make them more appropriate of the two to carry out this responsibility. The word qawwām (guardian) combines in it the concepts of physical protection and moral responsibility.

      The second reason pointed out by this verse for this choice is that on a man lies the responsibility of earning for his wife and children. It is but natural for one who financially maintains and looks after the individuals entrusted to him to be at the helm of their affairs. In this regard, however, it must remain clear that Islam does not forbid women to earn a living. It has only freed them from the responsibility of earning, which lies upon men. It also needs to be understood that the verse does not say that the one among the husband or wife who supports the family should become the head;. husbands, whether their wives earn or not, are liable for this responsibility. A women may earn if she likes or if some need arises, but since she has not been entrusted with this duty she has not been given the governing position in the family.

      The verse, it should remain in consideration, very clearly states that men’s superiority to women is not absolute; it is only relative and confined to certain spheres. Consequently, there are certain spheres in which women by nature — physical, physiological as well as psychological — are far superior to men and much more suitable to do certain tasks.”

      (Dr. Shehzad Saleem)

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 21, 2020 at 2:45 am

      I understand men and women are different.. but how does it justify men to be given right to be the head of the household in a marital relationship ? A marriage is not exactly a boss-employee relation, and even a boss doesn’t have the right to beat his employee.

      I see many problems with allowing one to beat the other partner.. and I don’t see how any self respecting woman will be fine with it.

      I respect Ghamidi saab as a good human being, and it is sad to see him defending wrong things just because of his belief in Qur’an. I am almost sure, if he hadn’t known this verse is part of Qur’an, he would have opposed it, as is apparent from his other lectures on women’s rights.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 21, 2020 at 4:42 am

      I think state-citizen analogy helps better understand Ghamidi Sahab’s point. A single breaking of a law doesn’t make a citizen rebellious. It is a continuous flouting of law and an attitude of anarchy and openly challenging the state which renders a citizen rebel. Similarly, following all the wishes and whims of Husband is not what is required of a wife, there comes a point where it is clear that beyond that point, the family will break apart (A very crude but practical example would be when a wife starts openly cheating on her husband). In normal circumstances, a person after assessing the circumstances, would choose to part his way from his wife. But since the relationship of marriage has been institutionalized because of the reasons that appeal to common intellect [1] , therefore, in case when there are children and because of some rebellious attitude, their upbringing and future comes at stake, only in such dire circumstances is physical admonishment allowed and not as a first step but only after following a series of protocol. If you look more deeply into this, the actual spirit and context of the verse has been completely ignored. The verse in question sought to address a widespread practice that has remained, and continues to remain, common in all societies, including the West. Cases of domestic abuse are rampant in places like the United States and Europe. Hence, the Quranic language sought to discourage men from partaking in this type of behavior, premised on anger, by requiring them to take certain steps before resorting to physical contact. The central idea being that in a moment of anger a man may suddenly strike his wife, but if he is instructed to pursue other measures first he attains sufficient time to cool his temper and come to his senses. The husband is instructed to reason with his wife, speak to her gently, then if this does not work to leave her bed or separate from her for a time and, finally, if all else fails, to resort to some physical contact to signify his displeasure. With each step, the husband is required to exhaust all possible avenues before moving to the next step.This physical chastisement is similar to the one a mother gives to a rebellious son or the one a teacher gives to an unruly student. A person must be aware that in case he misuses this authority in any way, he would be held responsible before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behavior to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard. It also needs to be considered that all rights must be exercised with prudence keeping in view the circumstances. Exercising one’s right is never obligatory. There can be circumstances in which a person chooses not to exercise this right.

      Ghamidi Sahab is also of the view that state has every right to reserve the right of admonishing rebellious wife to itself just like state has right to punish a husband for any misconduct on his behalf.

      ____________________________________

      [1] It is a common observation that every human individual born on this earth has to remain dependent on a number of relationships throughout his lifetime and without these he cannot embark on the tempestuous voyage of his life. In the prime of his youth, he might consider himself to be the king of the world but during his childhood and old age he needs the love and affection of the near ones which must not cease with time. In both these periods of life, he must be looked after by those who have warmth and compassion for him. In other words, his life demands relationships which should be permanent in nature so that his parents, children, brothers and sisters — all can play their role in his life. Keeping in view this all important aspect, Islam lays its social structure on the basis of a permanent relationship between a man and a woman. This relationship comes into existence in the form of an everlasting marriage bond and the two constitute the basic ingredients of a family. On the permanence and well being of the institution of the family stands the whole fabric of a society. In other words, if this institution looses its stability, the whole society is shaken from its roots and reduced to a state of communal anarchy. Islam wants to preserve this set-up as much as possible. For this very reason, the Prophet (sws) has regarded the severing of marital ties in the form of divorce as a most unpleasant happening. The right granted to a husband to physically admonish his wife in a certain situation is a last resort to preserve this set-up. It needs to be appreciated that this right has been given to the husband as the head of the family. As such, it is a requisite of authority. In other words, it is not ‘gender specific’ it is ‘authority specific’, that is whoever has the authority to head a family must be given this right. In other words, had a wife been made the head of the family, she would have had this right.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 20, 2020 at 11:47 pm

    Where do we start and who will educate our masses. ? Total misuse of a Quran Ayat.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 20, 2020 at 11:54 pm

    I agree with you

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 21, 2020 at 12:19 am

    Umer please let me know where you plan to start?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 21, 2020 at 12:24 am

    Please keep the discussions on topic. If educating masses is a worthwhile topic please start a discussion with that topic.

    That said, I think Umer has already started educating people through this platform and doing a great job at it!

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member July 21, 2020 at 7:06 am

    True

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 21, 2020 at 9:07 am

    The fact that 4:34 is problematic, is the reason many different Muslim translations have tried to come up with some other meaning for the phrase . Instead of “beat her” they prefer to use the translation as “separate from her” .

    Here a discussion of Majid Nawaz with a Muslim lady, and see that the lady is not comfortable condemning the 3rd step, but she considers it wrong to beat the wife. Something which is wrong in her view, she can’t condemn only because it is in Qur’an.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b9pMNBJpI8

    • Umer

      Moderator July 21, 2020 at 9:29 am

      That lady is responsible for her own response, I am trying to convey how Ghamidi Sahab understood these verses along with the reasons behind His understanding and how I find those reasons logical.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 21, 2020 at 9:39 pm

      Yes, the lady is responsible for her own views. I am only pointing out that though she considers beating the wife wrong, she can’t condemn the passage 4:34 which suggests it. This mentality is what I am trying to highlight.

      Something which Muslim ladies otherwise consider wrong and immoral, they will still not condemn Qur’an verse which says the same thing. I am sure the same lady would have condemned it if it hadn’t been in Qur’an.

      I am not sure what is “logical” in giving the right to one partner to beat the other partner in marriage. I think Ghamidi saab found it in Qur’an and then adjusted his thinking to it, by this method we will always justify everything , even the most immoral and illogical things, because it is said by God.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 21, 2020 at 9:55 pm

    Sameer sahab when a person believes in the Quran as the word of God, not just because he was born on that faith, but because he has found evidence as strong as that of any scientific facts or even his own existence, then he is not left with any choice other than to understand the rationale behind such verses in the light of everything else in the Quran. I think if one really wants to find the truth and understand God, then he should first figure out if God really exists, if He does then did He really send down Quran as His final word, and if He did then what’s the big picture message of the Quran. Without establishing these things first, discussion on this kind of verses will most probably not be very fruitful.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 21, 2020 at 10:02 pm

      I agree with you. So, we can conclude that Ghamidi saab and other Muslims who are generally having good morality, and are in favour of women’s rights, are convinced about 4:34 and the wife beating permitted in it, ONLY because they believe that Qur’an is the word of God and God can’t say anything wrong or immoral.

      If they earlier believed (without reading Qur’an) that wife beating is an immoral practice (even under the conditions and context specified in 4:34 of exercising other options first etc.) and then they read 4:34 and it creates a conflict in their view. They adjust their moral compass and then start accepting wife beating is a moral thing OR like some other translators, start reinterpreting Allah’s word to mean “separate from her” instead of “beat her” as the following scholar is doing.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=833pm2pOhgw

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 21, 2020 at 10:16 pm

      I can’t speak for other scholars, however, in the Farahi school, the words of Quran are the final authority. If the words say something then it has to be accepted, regardless of if one likes it or not. Again, this is because Quran has been proven to be the word of God in this school of thought.

      That said, Ghamidi sahab is not suggesting wife beating, as you put it. One can choose to ignore the context, what is being said, why is it being said, and insist on just the negative aspect – and they’re absolutely free to do so. However, as I have stated before, a better approach is to understand the big picture before trying to understand the difficult issues.

  • Umer

    Moderator July 21, 2020 at 6:05 am

    As per Islamic law, wife reserves an unconditional right to ask for divorce & if husband tries to misuse that right, state will make that divorce happen forcefully.

    Unfortunately no such state is following injunctions of Islam in its true letter and spirit. Just because they are not following it and women are being exploited, this shouldn’t bar us from raising our voice, raising awareness about religion and paving way for the change to come, which by nature is a slow and gradual process.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 21, 2020 at 8:36 am

    If husband is cheating, wife has right to ask for divorce. If wife is cheating, husband has right to beat her .. this is where unfair and unjust system is being highlighted. Husband should have the right to divorce on a cheating wife (if consultation doesn’t work out).. beating her is simply wrong and clearly hypocritical.

  • Umer

    Moderator July 21, 2020 at 9:26 am

    “In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behavior to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard”.

    This sentence is repeated in the thread at two places and somehow it got ignored every time.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 21, 2020 at 9:44 pm

    I am not sure how can authorities punish him for beating his wife. He is well within his rights to beat his wife, when she “challenges his authority”, as per the holy book. What argument or law, the authority will use to punish him ?

    Combine it to the fact, that a husband doesn’t have to “cheat” either, he can always marry other woman if he wants to have another woman, a wife can’t do that either. It is another unfair treatment, allowing polygamy for the man (apart from right to having sex with slaves), but denying the wife any such right, however it is a different topic.

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