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Halal Food Specifics
Some food may have different sources for the same ingredient. What should we do when one ingredient could be haraam? What is the principle that a product changes chemically and it’s not haraam anymore? Eg if animal tissue is used in the production of some butter is the butter haraam?
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20 Replies
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Halal Food Specifics
updated 3 years, 8 months ago
5 Members
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20
Replies
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I have heard Ghamidi Sahab a couple of times that when a product changes its chemical form, it no longer remains in Haram category. But I am unable to find that clip.
Sohail Sahab(@Sohail ) do you have that clip?
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I think @faisalharoon mentioned somewhere that if you burn something for long enough inly carbon will remain. But if we burn a piece of pork the carbon will still be from pork.
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Interesting perspective. I thought that carbon being a fundamental element makes the pig (and other life forms), the pig doesn’t make carbon.
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You can not make a Halal product from Haram ingredients. Following Hadith shows that Prophet Muhammad forbade converting Alcohol to vinegar although the chemical reaction changes the composition of final product:
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَحْيَى أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ ح و حَدَّثَنَا زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ السُّدِّيِّ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ عَبَّادٍ عَنْ أَنَسٍ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ سُئِلَ عَنْ الْخَمْرِ تُتَّخَذُ خَلًّا فَقَالَ لَا
Sahih Muslim – 5140
Anas reported that Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) was asked about the use of Khamr from which vinegar is prepared. He said:
No (it is prohibited).
حضرت انس رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ سے روایت ہے کہ نبی کریم صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم سے شراب کو سرکہ بنانے کے متعلق سوال کیا گیا تو آپ نے فرمایا : نہیں ۔
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I am asking whether any part of the pig except the flesh is haraam anyway. So this is irrelevant.
Also it is well known that vinegar is halal. And vinegar is from alcohol
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You can not use Alcohol to make Vinegar as per above mentioned Sahih Muslim 5140. You can make vinegar from Halal ingredients like grapes, wheat, rice and dates etc.
Read above Hadith carefully.
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I see no reason for this. Ahadith do not act as an independent source to religion. Unless the vinegar intoxicates what’s the issue?
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When Prophet Mihammad prohibit you to do something just refrain from that without asking questions.
So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment. (Qur’an 59:7)
اور جو کچھ تمہیں رسول دے اسے لے لو اور جس سے منع کرے اس سے باز رہو اور الله سے ڈرو بیشک الله سخت عذاب دینے والا ہے
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We do not know the context of the Hadith or if the vinegar created still intoxicated. All we have are the qatai usul of the Quran. We must also check the isnaad of this hadith
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I remember hearing from Ghamidi Sahab that he would avoid to eat the things containing the ingredients from prohibited sources. Even if they are chemically changed.
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I think it is unnecessary to seek Ghamidi Sahib’s opinion when we have very clear evidence from Authentic Hadith prohibiting making Halal product from Haram ingredients.
You can not use Alcohol to make Vinegar as per following authentic Hadith of Sahih Muslim 5140:
“Anas reported that Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) was asked about the use of Khamr (Alcohol) from which vinegar is prepared. He (pbuh) said: No (it is prohibited).
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There can definitely be differences of opinion in such matters of ijtihad and one is obligated to follow what they find correct according to their understanding of the matter.
Quran verse 16:66 tells us that milk that we get from livestock comes from between excretion and blood in their bellies, so it’s not correct to assume that something halal can’t be obtained from something haram. On the basis of this verse and some narrations, the Hanafi, Maliki and Ibn Hazm schools of jurisprudence hold that once a substance changes it’s form it’s not considered haram anymore.
In principle, it should be understood that narrations by themselves never provide any basis of law. Narrations only apply or explain the laws present in the fundamental sources of Islam: the Quran and the Sunnah. To understand this point further, please refer to Umer Qureshi sahab’s response in an unrelated discussion:
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Faisal, you presented Quran verse 16:66 which tells us that “milk that we get from livestock comes from between excretion and blood in their bellies”. This is a natural process and is different from when somebody want to make milk from blood using technology (just an assumption). The milk made in such a way from haram ingredients would be Haram. Specially when we have an authentic Hadith of Sahih Muslim 5140:
“Anas reported that Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) was asked about the use of Khamr (Alcohol) from which vinegar is prepared. He (pbuh) said: No (it is prohibited).
several processes have been employed to make vinegar. In the natural, process, vats of fruit are allowed to sit open at room temperature. During a period of several months, the fruit juices ferment into alcohol and then oxidize into acetic acid (Vinegar). Note that in above natural process of making vinegar the fruit juices are transformed first into ethyl alcohol and than oxidized into acetic acid (vinegar).
Hanafi, Maliki Fiqh were written without the availability of Authentic Books of Hadiths like Sahih Muslim
and Sahih Bukhari and hence were possibly unaware of this Hadith which made space in Hadith Books long after Hanafi, Shafai and Humbli Fiqh were written.
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Fair enough, but narrations do not provide any basis of law.
I provided the verse in reference to argument used by a’ima. What is your basis of argument that technology can’t be used to replace a natural process?
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My argument is authentic Hadith of Sahih Muslim 5140 where Prophet Muhammad pbuh prohibited to make vinegar from Alcohol. Whereas you are presenting the opinions of later Imams in front of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
The saying of Prophet Muhammad pbuh is basis of Law unless you prove this narration to be unauthentic.
Question for you: If somebody ask you whether he can make vinegar using alcohol? What would be your response?
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I started off by stating that there can be differences of opinion in such matters of ijtihad. So no I’m not presenting the opinions of anyone in front of Prophet Muhammad SAW. I did, however, want you to understand that there are other opinions in this regard as well.
One could respond to you by saying that you’re presenting the opinions of narrators in front of the Quran. No matter how authentic a hadith, it’s still a reporting of a narrator, and as such, Prophet SAW has no liability of what a he might have reported.
Hadith doesn’t give us basis for legislation – in fact it’s dependent upon the Quran and the sunnah to be understood. That however is a separate discussion. You can search this forum for related discussions or start a new one if you would like to discuss it further. I’ll leave you with these two videos, hopefully they will help:
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Faisal, you wrote that there is difference of opinion on this issue. In other words, According to you there must be some prominent Muslim Scholars or Imams who allowed making Vinegar using Alcohol. Can you please mention any quote or Fatwa from any prominent Muslim Imam or scholar during last 1400 years who allowed making Vinegar using Alcohol?
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There are a lot of them. As I mentioned above Hanafi, Maliki and Ibn Hazm schools of jurisprudence hold that once a substance changes it’s form it’s not considered haram anymore. There are other scholars of the past that hold this view as well.
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Thanks for your response but I am looking for specific response regarding making making of vinegar from Alcohol with references. Can you please mention any quote or Fatwa from any prominent Muslim Imam or scholar during last 1400 years who allowed making Vinegar using Alcohol?
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While it’s not necessary to get any fatwas when something is clear in principle, I am attaching one that explains this issue from all major schools of jurisprudence. If you want further information, please look up the relevant books of fiqh as they specifically discuss the issue of turning wine into vinegar.
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