-
Where Do We Get Sunnah From?
An issue being discussed on the understanding Ghamidi whatsapp group is how can we reconcile the ikhtilaf present in matters of sunnah. Because this is not an amali tawattur as certain things such as Rafa yadain are taken as fard by some and not others. Is Hadith required for this?
If ahadeeth are required then how can Ghamidi sahab’s view about them not being obligatory or needed be upheld?
Basically how can we know if a matter of sunnah is fard or not without Hadith as amali tawatur seems to not be united or reliable. Another major example can be tying the hands in salah or no accroding to shias. How can we know if domethimg is fard or not especially if the amali tawattur means that some people may always be doing the fard (ie another surah after faatiha is not seen to be fard with the use of hadith books but it is seen everywhere).
What all books do we consult (pls. list the names) for “ikhtilaafi” issues that already exist in the living tradition of Muslims? Obviously we are not living in the times of the Prophet (AS) to directly see what the Muslim community is practicing, how do we trace this knowledge back to the Prophet (AS) through what sources of the books? If it is the books by jurists (Fiqh), how do we resolve the conflict in various schools of thoughts to filter Sunnah to only established and never changing practices? What is then the criteria to say what all is established Sunnah and what all is optional?
-
40 Replies
-
Where Do We Get Sunnah From?
updated 4 years, 5 months ago
7 Members
·
40
Replies
-
Amali tawatur in everything mandatory has been unanimous from day 1, and has transmitted to us through such perpetual consensus of the entire ummah generation after generation. It has also been recorded in the books of fiqh. The fact that there’s a difference of opinion among major schools about rafa yadein is evidence within itself that it’s not a sunnah.
-
If I understood you correctly, the only Sunnah would be what is COMMON in EVERY generation and Every sect/group? Even according to that, we do see huge differences between the way of offering Salat between Sunni/Shia vs Ismaili shia?
Hence, I’d re-iterate the question #1: Where is the record of ALL the Islamic Teachings that were issued by Prophet Muhammad PBUH?
As Ghamidi shb would say “Hazoor ney yeh ta’aleemat jaari kar din thin”. That “jaari kar dena” or issuance of teachings must have been recorded somewhere? Ghamidi shb said that these can be found among books of Fiqh (as you also said, “recorded in the books of fiqh”) whereas even within books of Fiqh, there are significant differences in those records raising the concern on the authenticity, rather originality of the teachings.
Q#2: How and from where can one simply find the original Sunnah in its most basic and original form? As clearly, the books of fiqh and amli tawatur has always had differences.
Jazak Allahu Khairan!
-
I think Faisal Haroon means eg two sajdas were always fard as was ruku and tasleem and faatiha- always- no ikhtilaaf. Therefore the things we are certain about are the fard acts. Everything else, by virtue of there being a difference of opinion is then not obligatory. The sources of these can most likely be pinned down to over-reliance and infalted importance on hadith. There is no need for any record in any book as every muslim knows these things.
-
So, if there arises a difference of opinion then, the importance of that particular act would be no more as a Fard? If so, that is very questionable way of defining Sunnah, imo.
Moreover, the example of Ismaili fellow having totally different perspective of offering Salah would make it a perfect example that even rukoo/sujood/qayaam are not Fard.
Hence, there must be a record of clear cut instructions issued by Prophet PBUH if you call Sunnah a source of Islam.
Thanks
-
You say ‘if there arises a difference of opinion’. I think this is close to impossible. When we know in such certainty the defintion and obligatory nature of sajda and ruku- it doesn’t matter whether someone comes and says they are just actions in the mind or something to that effect. If an action has always been known as fard such as two sajdas and tasleem- then the person who claims it is not fard will have to produce evidence on his behalf that the Prophet SAWS did/didn’t do this- the burden of proof will not lie on the giant that is the amali tawattur in which it is clearly known that these actions are fard, rather on the claimant that struggles against it.
-
-
@faisalharoon ما شاء الله you have left me wordless for any objection!
-
In the living tradition (Amal) of Muslims we see ikhtilaaf on issues like.
a) Multiple Umrah at Hajj
b) Rafa Yaddain or not
c) Application of Zakaat rates (2.5, 5 and 10%) not consistent w/ Ghamidi sb’s understanding
d) Hijab or no-Hijab
e)
f)
g)
We then narrow-down this list of ikhtilafaats to the bare minimum and say only this is Sunnah becuase there is no ikhtilaaf on these issues and everything else (with multiple opinions) we exclude from the list.
Is this narrowing-down (academic exercise) done to fit our definition of Sunnah? Because in living tradition of Muslims we see Ikhtilaaf
So, then is Sunnah 100% unchanged or it is the definition we like to give to Sunnah (and everything else – the Sunnah list – is just a result of our made up definition of Sunnah – i.e. unchanged).
Also, living tradition has ikhtilaaf, so this necessarily then needs books by jurists or hadith to determine what all has been passed down (the subset) without any ikhtilaaf from generations to generations.
So, what is then the source of Sunnah today?
a) Living tradition w/ Ikhtilaaf
b) Books by Jurists and Hadith corpus w/ ikhtilaaf
We don’t have a visual historical record of what has not been changed.
-
The obligatory actions are common within all groups. EG two sajdas, tasleem and one ruku. This living traditionis known by all. Any person who adds or detracts or aters in any way to this must provide his evidence, otherwise it remains as it is.
-
@AhmadShoaib this is circular reasoning. Narrow down the living tradition until you get agreed upon practices to say only this is Sunnah
-
@Irfan76 sb. some expert opinion needed here. [I know the standard narrative]. Thank you
-
I think that we don’t need to narrow anything down. The sunnah is already here- we don’t need to go anywhere to find it or narrow anything down to pinpoint it.
-
@AhmadShoaib Easy for you to say “Sunnah is already here”….Where?
(Ghamidi sb had to revise his list also)….Pls. note I know the standard version, lets allow @Irfan76 sb. or @Farhan or @UmerQureshi to chime in [This is recently troubling me – need some good response to this].
-
@AhmadShoaib : “sunnah is already here” The question is Where and Where did it come from? Which record records this? Where did all the Sunnahs, that Ghamidi shb. in his book Meezan/Islam mentioned, get from? If you say amli tawatur, then it includes so many other things which are not sourced from Sunnah. So, again back to the same point. When you say Ijma’a then what/where is the record of that Ijma’a?
Sorry to say but that’s not helping in pinning the source and records. -
I’ll post this last post in reply to Muhammad Abdullah and after this I think as Sohail bhai suggested we can wait for the experts. What i meant by the sunnah was that the obligations that we are all aware of are obligatory parts of the sunnah. The rest of the ikhtilaaf are that part of the sunnah which are not obligatory. I will leave it to the experts now inshaAllah
-
-
A unanimous religious act transferred incessantly through generation is Sunnah and then there is variety within it at minor level while performing it. Variety is kefiyat. This is not obligatory. So Rafa yadain and tying up hands while standing in prayer are not obligatory things no one claimed them to be obligatory.
According to Ghamidi sahib, the whole prayer is Fard unless someting proven not obligatory within it. This is contrary to fuqaha who categorize every act to be obligatory or not.
The proof for Sunnah is the present religious unanimous acts of Muslims. Yes there comes some slight differences too but these are always minor doesn’t doubt a while act to be Sunnah or not.
-
Thanks Irfan sb, appreciate it.
-
-
Assalamualikum everyone!
The ongoing discussion is very intriguing & it grappled me with great interest & curiosity while reading it.
I would like to draw your attention towards the following points to mull over and respond accordingly.
It is true that amli-tawatur of Sunnah as initiated by the Prophet (sws) is present within ummah since it’s initiation; but that is not the primary mode of transmission of Sunnah. The primary mode of its transmission is Ijma of Sahaba (companions of Prophet) which is trickled down from generation-to-generation till this day. Many prominent scholars like Shafi, Ibn-Abdul Bar and others explicitly mention this category of Sunnah exactly in the same sense.
Let’s take Quran for example, we know that Quran’s original mode of transmission is the same Ijma with an addition of Qauli-tawatur. What this ijma means is that the exact words of Prophet (sws) given to Sahaba have been transmitted down to us in a ditto format, each and every word of it is the same as given by Prophet Muhammad (sws) as a word of GOD. We received the words in their purest form, now comes the task of interpreting those words, this is the stage where differences arise when different scholars try to interpret these words. So now if I ask a counter question that where is original Quran kept at? why are there differences in interpreting its different verses? To me, such questions would not hold any value as long as we are talking about authenticity of Quran, because we know that words of this Book have been transmitted to us in the most reliable way of transmission. It’s only people / scholars, when they start interpreting those words, its is perfectly natural that such differences will arise. People can simply listen to logic of every scholar behind their interpretation of any specific verse(s) and prefer the explanation more logical and rational to them as long as they are not influenced by any bias or prejudice (which also is an ibtila / test for us humans to seek the truth and uphold it without any bias to achieve tazkiya (purity) of ilm (knowledge)).
Now if we apply the same approach to Sunnah–transmitted through ijma with amli-tawatur in place since the time of Prophet–Just like words of Quran, the actions of amli-tawatur will be interpreted by scholars so as to differentiate farz ibadah (obligatory) from nafl (optional); for example we know that Ibadah of Aitafak (seclusion) & Qurbani (Animal Sacrifice) which are not obligatory but still initiated as part of Sunnah (although Qurbani is considered wajib (semi-obligatory) by ahnaf but it is still not the same category as farz (obligatory) in their fiqh). Considering the nature of Sunnah as opposed to Quran (i.e. actions vs. words), Sunnnah is more prone to adulteration because actions can be altered so subtly at times and the same alteration then builds on over many generations and gets solidified to a point where people naturally confuse it with Sunnah. Nevertheless, perseverance and hard work in tracing back those Sunnah to Prophet Muhammad (sws) can tell us the exact picture regarding actual status of that Sunnah. In order to do that, reference has to be made to all available sources including current ijma & amli-tawatur, tracing back that amli-tawatur to earliest of times as incorporated in books of fiqh, history and books of ahadith as well. One has to exhaust all possible options in tracing back of Sunnah just like all possible linguistic options were exhausted while interpreting meanings of different verses of Quran. Just like verses of Quran, this job needs to be done by scholars who then present their findings and we as regular muslims, see their reasoning and rationality behind their conclusion. In addition to these factors, another source for difference of opinion arises in deciding status of Ahadith. Since Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmed ibn-e-Hambal considered these as a second category of Sunnah, holding same value as the first category. This has led to another source of difference among jurists; but all this can be sorted out following the approach mentioned above.
In order to understand this whole explanation, I would like to point you all towards A perfect case-study in this regard i.e. the famous misnomer of Sunnah of reciting adhan (azan) in new born’s ears. It will show you how tracing back of Sunnah works and how we can reach at the right conclusion after persevering on the whole tracing back process. Please follow the link below to analyze that case-study:
I would also like to point that differences that exist in determination of Sunnah are very few just like differences in interpretation on verses of Quran. The majority of Ummah is continuously practicing all these Sunnah more or less in the same way. The major differences do not lie in determining Sunnah at a broader level, rather they lie more at a micro-level. If you excuse my paraphrasing of Imam-Malik’s words: ‘there lies diversity of ilm, ibadah and actions among people and it’s this diversity which gives life its beauty and its colours’. GOD didn’t intend for us to fit ourselves into a rigid structure of religion, rather GOD gave us a little room for freedom within all these ibadah so as to not feel confined within a circle of rituals only, but to actually understand the spirit of Ibadah, search for the truth to achieve Tazkiya of ilm and to act accordingly as per our attachment to Allah, and eventually achieve Tazkiya of amal (actions) and be eligible for that eternal life promised to the ones who achieve this Tazkiya.
I hope this will make some sense.
-
Sir when we see Ghamidi sahab’s philosophy it is that nothing from the outside of the ‘amali tawatur and the Qur’an is needed to make sense of Islam. Then why must we have to research so deeply into old books of history and fiqh to determine these matters? Thanks for the great response
-
Then why do we go outside of Quran to understand it’s language? doesn’t this go against Ghamidi sb.’s philosophy of “nothing from the outside of the ‘amali tawatur and the Qur’an is needed to make sense of Islam”.
All of this exercise is done in the same way Quran’s linguistics is understood from sources both inside & outside of Quran. The act (sunnah) and words (Quran) have been transmitted to us, but we have to make sense of them both. That’s why people have spent their lifetimes in understanding them and structurally prioritizing them.
-
From what I have been studying so far and I am stills studying is that the Quran itself from itself linguistics converys its meaning by itself
-
Ahmad Brother! It’s not like that. There have been many differences in interpretation of Quranic verses on the basis of linguistics. Ghamidi sb. has presented his principles of understanding the Quran, in which understanding of language from Quran itself is one source among many others.
-
Thanks @UmerQureshi – This case-study can be used against the notion that Sunnah is as authentic as Quran. There is no confusion on Surah’s of Quran (total) but Ghamidi sb. considered this Sunnah a while ago (adhan in new born’s ear) but now he believes it is not Sunnah.
Can there be something else on his list that is not Sunnah and yet to be discovered? If this is deen (required) shouldn’t this be common knowledge like Quran if people are supposed to follow it or not?
Jurists had this IJMA and Amli tawatur available to them like Shafi (and possibility of less innovation and corruption due to proximity) or lets take Malik who would consider living tradition of Madina as Sunnah – Why is this “deen” or Sunnah not finalized in 1400 some years specially if we are saying jurists have been documenting it also.
-
@Sohail bhai!
then there should be answer to my question as well: Why isn’t there consensus in interpreting verses of Quran between different jurists? Shouldn’t that also be crystal-clear since the time of Imam Malik and others?
Its a rhetorical question to convey the basic point that I am trying to purport.
-
Lets assume there is no Meezan (Ghamidi sb’s book), where would a common Muslim go to find out what exactly comes in Sunnah and its details? Sunnah which is required for him to follow, which he will be held accountable for.
Can you name some books (for a common man) or will he look at the living tradition of his community or he is supposed to research and trace back tawatur to the Prophet (AS)?
-
When I look at the the list of Sunnah in Meezan and then look back in my past, I actually have been practicing the whole of it without any requirement for any list.
Although one can consider something as Sunnah which according to Ghamidi sb. should not categorized as such, for example, the same recitation of adhan in newborn’s year, I used to consider that as Sunnah myself; but I see it the same way how I used to interpret the verses of Inheritance in Quran before listening to Ghamidi sb. arguments. What triggers accountability is my attitude after finding something logical and reasonable and sticking to old ways just for the sake of sticking.
As far as accountability is concerned, we both know this is not the complete criteria, a person’s attitude towards truth and then acting on that truth wholeheartedly is the actual criteria for redemption.
-
Meezan’s list is a subset of what is being practiced out there – This made it easy for you to argue
Ok, I am good on the Meezan list issue.For your other argument: Interpretation of text vs. Amli practice (either the list or details), I am not sure if its a fair comparision – Will have to think more on this.
For anyone who is not aware of Meezan (or lets say it does not exist) what would you tell them is the source of Sunnah? Any books for a common man?
-
Honestly, for me, a little realization was enough that what I was practicing all along was the mutawatir Sunnah (this is my personal experience). I use the same realization to make others realize about this fact and it has worked most of the times. The only major difference that arises is of Beard, other than that, no one has objected this rationale to me.
-
Thanks @UmerQureshi – I think I am good on this topic (once again). Appreciate your comments and time. Thanks to @Irfan76 sb also.
-
@Sohail bhai!
let’s see for how long this “once again” stays for
-
Next time, I will come to AG and read all the good comments to refresh my memory! This is a good thread and good exchange. Thanks again. Stay blessed.
-
-
How do we learn prayer fasting Hajj etc in the first place ? Do we consult some book or acquire it from out parents and community around us? This is where we get Sunnah.
Now comes the problem that if some bidat or innovation is passed as well from some point of time . Here a documented proof helps us .
Sunnah is being recorded too but these documented proofs comes secondary to prove anything Sunnah. They are rather used in our school to disprove something is not Sunnah.
-
Holy Prophet(pbuh) was the authority in deen and he gave islamic teachings to the community and not individuals. He gave deen in two forms : quran and sunnat(call it whatever you want. Quran calls it milaat e ibrahimi). Now community transfered this practical nature of deen generations after generations. This amli tawatur has to be from day 1. today you might see our community transferring some supposed deeni amal in this way but its origin might be from some hadith(which is akhbar ahad) ; this cant be considered as deen since holy prophet didnt teach islam to individuals. He conveyed every injunction of deen to the whole community and he had 23 years for that. Now rafa yaden is not transfered to us by ijma. That is why there is ikhtilaaf in it. But there is no disagreement in deen. Nobody disagrees in 5 prayers or their rakats. Bcz generations have transfered this to us. Nobody has learnt this from hadith. You wouldnt ask for hadith reference if someone tells you to pray 4 farz rakat for asar. Now if something is farz, it is transfered to us as farz. we all know what are farz and what are nafal.
-
So would you basically say that if EG we wanted to write all sunnah down, would we just look at the common actions donne by muslims around the world? I think the problem is that if the hadith have problems with chinese whispers type things then what about these actions? Unless God swore to protect them
-
That is ijma and that is traced back to holy prophet(Pbuh) for something to become a part of deen. As well as its authenticity is concerned that is the most secured way of transferring something. Established history is conveyed this way. noone would question you and ask for book reference if u claim that Pak was made by jinnah bcz generations are transfering this knowledge. And it is transfered by such a great amount that it would be unreasonable for all of them to agree on something that is wrong and cooked up. This amli tawatur is the most secured way in this world and it is not something that is related to deen. we see it everywhere. And quran is transferred through this ijma also. If authenticity of sunnat is questioned then quran becomes questionable too.
As far as hadith is concerned, it is khabre wahid( akhbar ahad). some people heard something from the prophet and in their individual capacity are narrating it to other individuals. It is not the community that is transferring it but only few people. thus it cant be compared in any capacity to something that is transferred through ijma.
-
Ok, I am good on the Meezan list issue.Sponsor Ask Ghamidi
