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Disney Land
I have a question about different prizeses(Chocolate, toys) which we can try to win in a park like disney land against the money we pay sometimes we chose a number/do a succesful task, will it be halal?
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23 Replies
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Disney Land
updated 4 years, 5 months ago
5 Members
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23
Replies
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I don’t see any reason for calling such activities Haram. Bur still, I haven’t been to any such theme park myself, so I can’t comment on the actual nature of such activities. Let me direct this to more appropriate personnel.
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There is no element of immorality in these activities so they are perfectly okay.
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Does not it looks unfaiir you pay 3 dollar and get reward like 50 dollar(if u win biggest prize) or losses 3 doller.
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The determining factor of fairness is not the dollar amount, but whether or not the involved parties intend to take undue advantage of each other, or to cheat each other.
Would it be fair if you had to pay $3 and could win the biggest prize of let’s say only $5? How about if they didn’t charge you any money at all, and you could still win the $50 prize? I actually won a pricey tablet computer at a conference once just because I was there – without having to spend a dime. Was it unfair to the conference organizers? How about a woodworker who creates a picture frame for $2 and sells it for $40? Or how about Macy’s selling you something below cost on a closeout sale?
All these things are baked into their business models. I think as Muslims we have always been incorrectly taught that any business transaction where probability is involved are unfair and haram. In my understanding it is unfortunate, because most things in this world are only probable. Many businesses fail just because they miss this little point.
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I have moved this discussion to the appropriate forum.
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Hmmm…
You are right we often don’t see the big picture of selling cheeper products then buying price…
I am not objecting business model, they are surely earning well, my point is that will it be some kind of gambling/betting that you are putting 1 with the risk of losing it or getting back 10. Specifically whin you are just guessing a Number (1-50) on spin wheel to win a 2kg Chocolate box.
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So which part of your scenario do you think is objectionable in Islam? Is it putting in 1 with the risk of losing it all or making 10 back? Or is it guessing the number between 1 and 50?
Let me pose a different scenario to you. A farmer decides to buy a particular kind of seed for $10 and plants it in hopes that he will be able to sell the crop for $100. Of course he can neither control the rain nor the market demand for that particular crop that year. Can this be considered betting/gambling?
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Is gambling prohibited in Quran?
How do we define gambling? Some examples might help.
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I don’t agree with the farmer analogy. Planting a seed is not equivalent to paying $1, selling a crop further through farming activities for $100 is not equivalent to getting $50 by spinning a wheel. One has a profit element while other is clearly not a profitable transaction but rather a game only.
I have to research but what I understand is that you are highlighting that “probability “ element is not haram in itself as it can exist in all business transactions. However, here the elements under scrutiny should be what defines gambling such as effort/research/knowledge/calculated risk analysis which is what differentiates gambling from other transactions (I think).
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I just laid out some scenarios so that the issue could be thought through.
In the farmer scenario it’s the choosing of which seed to plant that has the element of randomness, not planting it. Planting the seed and other farming activities are “effort” which equate to spinning the wheel.
There’s clearly an activity of choosing something in each case without any guarantees of the outcome, some level of effort involved, an element of risk of losing the entire initial capital, and a chance of making a significant amount more if everything goes as planned.
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Then how would you define gambling? Even farming seems like a gamble & prize bonds seem like a game after reading this thread
I think it would be unfair to equate labour of farmer with that of a person who spins wheel just for entertainment. (One is spinning wheel of economy while other one is spinning wheel of fortune).
In gambling, according to my understanding, one party is bound to lose money on mere chance and the level of uncertainty is so high that it can’t be countered with labour, skill, risk analysis and any other mean for that matter. I also think that economic value underlying those bets should also be considered. for example, amount gambled in a horse race Vs. a box of chocolate earned in a spin wheel.
I am not giving any conclusive remarks. Just a food for thought.
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reconstruction of gambling thought – farming narrative
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“Jawabi-Bayania” in the making, under supervision of Faisal Bhai
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Intressting debate …
Waiting for outcome 😃
Because it is very normal and happing in almost every park in Europe that’s why very imortant to know what is right thing to do.
Me and kids have been to a park last week, it is really fun for whole family 😄, but if it is right/wrong should be aware of it.
Jazakallah khair for intressting arrguments, waiting for more 😁
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Gambling gambling hoti hay – bacchay disney main karain ya baray casino main.
This is my stance!
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@UmerQureshi “I think it would be unfair to equate labour of farmer with that of a person who spins wheel just for entertainment.”
So is it the amount of labor that sets apart business from gambling, or is it the fact that one is done for entertainment, while the other for business? If it’s the former, where should the line be drawn?
“In gambling, according to my understanding, one party is bound to lose money on mere chance and the level of uncertainty is so high that it can’t be countered with labour, skill, risk analysis and any other mean for that matter.”
There are several people who have used their “skill” to successfully tilt the odds in their own favor. If one can do that, then is it not gambling?
Edward Thorp
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp
MIT Blackjack Team
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention @faisalharoon sahab.
Since you gave that farmer’s example in comparison to spinning of the wheel, that’s why I mentioned that both of these labours do not equate logically. I didn’t mention it as a rule of thumb.
You mentioned people who’ve skillfully tilted odds in their favour, that’s true! no one’s denying that.
But in discussion of principles in general, we never bring exceptions defying those principles.
My primary point when defining gambling remains the same, ‘One party is bound to lose money and other party is bound to win at the expense of that first party; all of this is done under umbrella of high uncertainty with no immediate mitigating tools at hand, like skills, labour (in that skill), risk analyses techniques and others’. The labour put into gambling business has no bearing in making such decisions. Exceptions will always be there, but exceptions don’t make general principles.
Now if we are to bring our discussion to full circle. Principally, these activities do have a gambling factor in them, but I think it is not the same kind of loss where one party is winning exclusively at the expense of other, since this has already been factored into their business model (just like free awards or free miles given to customers).
And as secondary factors, the financial magnitude of such transactions in theme parks (as far as I know because of lack of my personal experience) is very trivial without any fear of promoting any evil in the society in terms of financial inequity or by usurping other’s wealth through unfair means. Also, It is not the primary activity of a theme park to engage in such activities, they form a small part of a whole big entertainment operation which, principally has no reason to be objected to.
So in conclusion, we both agree, that there is nothing wrong a person participating in such activities in a theme park.
(Just my opinion, not a scholarly one.)
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@UmerQureshi I’m not taking any sides (yet) – I’m only laying out scenarios so that this problem can be thought through. Notice that I have refrained from providing any definition of gambling.
So in your mind, what are the objective factors that can label a transaction as a gamble? Uncertainty, magnitude of financial transaction, amount of effort, potion of proceeds to the business from such transactions – I saw multiple points in your last post, but it’s not clear where one should draw the line.
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@faisalharoon bhai! I thought you already expressed your opinion in your first reply. i.e.
“There is no element of immorality in these activities so they are perfectly okay.”
No backies now, that’s cheating
But on a serious note, If you could comment on the primary point that I mentioned, that would be great. i.e.
“My primary point when defining gambling remains the same, ‘One party is bound to lose money and other party is bound to win at the expense of that first party; all of this is done under umbrella of high uncertainty with no immediate mitigating tools at hand, like skills, labour (in that skill), risk analyses techniques and others’. The labour put into gambling business has no bearing in making such decisions. Exceptions will always be there, but exceptions don’t make general principles.”
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@UmerQureshi agree, I did say that in regards to the Disneyland type activities, but in my mind the discussion has moved away from that and entered into defining gambling.
I need to understand your definition in more simpler terms so that we have a clear litmus test that we can apply to any transaction and figure out whether or not it’s gambling. What I have gathered is as follows.
Gambling is a transaction where:
a) one party is bound to loose money at the the other party’s expense
b) transaction takes place where uncertainty is very high
c) Skill and the amount of effort do no not play any part
Please feel free to expand upon this.
And don’t get me wrong – I am not trying to win a debate here, but I think that the definition of gambling that we have been taught is not correct. All I am doing is trying to facilitate a discussion where hopefully we can come to some objective conclusion.
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@faisalharoon sahab!
a) and b) affirmative
but c) should be ‘no risk mitigation tools or in other words, absolutely no way of knowing/controlling the outcome’. Based on pure chance.
(Please feel free to critique this and educate me on your understanding of gambling)
* We can defer ‘skill and the amount of effort do no not play any part’ for now
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I don’t understand what’s meant by no risk mitigation tools. Absolutely no way of knowing/controlling the outcome is redundant with b. So far I have this then:
a) one party is bound to loose money at the the other party’s expense
b) transaction takes place where uncertainty is very high
Please feel free to add/modify it.
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Sorry for the confusion, my poor writing skills are to blame. What I wanted to say was something along these lines: ‘There is uncertainty and then there are tools equally available to all the parties to lower that uncertainty to a point where it no longer remains a matter of pure chance only’.
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