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Lahmul Khinzeer – Flesh Of Swine
The ayah about pork specifically mentions the flesh of pig. Does this include organs and bone marrow?
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34 Replies
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Lahmul Khinzeer – Flesh Of Swine
updated 3 years, 5 months ago
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34
Replies
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Avoid asking unnecessary question. Jews had the same habit which is mentioned in Qur’an in Surah Al-Baqara.
وحَدَّثَنِي زُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ، أَخْبَرَنَا الرَّبِيعُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ الْقُرَشِيُّ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ: خَطَبَنَا رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ، فَقَالَ: «أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ فَرَضَ اللهُ عَلَيْكُمُ الْحَجَّ، فَحُجُّوا»، فَقَالَ رَجُلٌ: أَكُلَّ عَامٍ يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ؟ فَسَكَتَ حَتَّى قَالَهَا ثَلَاثًا، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: لَوْ قُلْتُ: نَعَمْ لَوَجَبَتْ، وَلَمَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ ، ثُمَّ قَالَ: «ذَرُونِي مَا تَرَكْتُكُمْ، فَإِنَّمَا هَلَكَ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ بِكَثْرَةِ سُؤَالِهِمْ وَاخْتِلَافِهِمْ عَلَى أَنْبِيَائِهِمْ، فَإِذَا أَمَرْتُكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ فَأْتُوا مِنْهُ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ، وَإِذَا نَهَيْتُكُمْ عَنْ شَيْءٍ فَدَعُوهُ»
Sahih Muslim – 3257
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) addressed us and said: O people, Allah has made Hajj obligatory for you; so perform Hajj. Thereupon a person said: Messenger of Allah, (is it to be performed) every year? He (the Holy Prophet) kept quiet, and he repeated (these words) thrice, whereupon Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) said: If I were to say Yes, it would become obligatory (for you to perform it every year) and you would not be able to do it. Then he said: Leave me with what I have left to you, for those who were before you were desroyed because of excessive questioning, and their opposition to their apostles. So when I command you to do anything, do it as much as it lies in your power and when I forbid you to do anything, then abandon it.
حضرت ابو ہریرہ رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ سے روایت ہے، انھوں نے کہا: رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے ہمیں خطبہ دیا اور فر ما یا : لوگو!تم پر حج فرض کیا گیا ہے لہٰذا حج کرو ۔ ایک آدمی نے کہا : کیا ہر سال ؟ اے اللہ کے رسول ! آپ خاموش رہے حتیٰ کہ اس نے یہ کلمہ تین بار دہرا یا ۔ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم نے فر ما یا : اگر میں کہہ دیتا : ہاں تو واجب ہو جا تا اور تم ( اس کی ) استطاعت نہ رکھتے ۔ پھر آپ نے فر ما یا : تم مجھے اسی ( بات ) پر رہنے دیا کرو جس پر میں تمھیں چھوڑدوں تم سے پہلے لو گ کثرت سوال اور اپنے انبیاء سے زیادہ اختلا ف کی بنا پر ہلاک ہو ئے ۔ جب میں تمھیں کسی چیز کا حکم دوں تو بقدر استطاعت اسے کرو،اور جب کسی چیز سے منع کروں تو اسے چھوڑ دو ۔
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I ask because a lot of food has pork gelatine but not pork flesh
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Nothing from pork is Halal, including its fat, gelatin, eyes, hairs, ears, skin, foot, head, nails etc.
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Why would this conclusion be drawn when the Quran mentions specially lahmul khinzeer.
لماذا لم يقول الله أن
‘حرِّم لكم الخنزير’
ولكن قال لحم الخنزير
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Because Allah has bestowed us with brain to think and conclude.
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَشَّارٍ وَاللَّفْظُ لِابْنِ الْمُثَنَّى قَالَا حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ عَنْ سِمَاكِ بْنِ حَرْبٍ عَنْ عَلْقَمَةَ بْنِ وَائِلٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَائِلٍ الْحَضْرَمِيِّ أَنَّ طَارِقَ بْنَ سُوَيْدٍ الْجُعْفِيَّ سَأَلَ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَنْ الْخَمْرِ فَنَهَاهُ أَوْ كَرِهَ أَنْ يَصْنَعَهَا فَقَالَ إِنَّمَا أَصْنَعُهَا لِلدَّوَاءِ فَقَالَ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ بِدَوَاءٍ وَلَكِنَّهُ دَاءٌ
Sahih Muslim – 5141
Wa’il al-Hadrami reported that Tariq b. Suwaid a-Ju’fi asked Allah’s Apostle ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) about liquor. He forbade (its use) and he expressed hatred that it should be prepared. He (Tariq) said:
I prepare it as a medicine, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: It is no medicine, but an ailment.
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This hadith has nothing to do with pork.
I hope I am also using my brain to ask the question I asked above.
Why did God not say
‘Pig is made haraam for you’
Why did he use the phrase the flesh of pig?
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Jews also had brain and they were thinking that they were smart to use the fat which was forbidden. See what prophet Muhammad pbuh said about them:
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، وَزُهَيْرُ بْنُ حَرْبٍ، وَإِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَاللَّفْظُ لِأَبِي بَكْرٍ، قَالُوا: حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ بْنُ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنْ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ طَاوُسٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ: بَلَغَ عُمَرَ أَنَّ سَمُرَةَ بَاعَ خَمْرًا، فَقَالَ: قَاتَلَ اللهُ سَمُرَةَ، أَلَمْ يَعْلَمْ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ: «لَعَنَ اللهُ الْيَهُودَ، حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الشُّحُومُ، فَجَمَلُوهَا، فَبَاعُوهَا»،
Sahih Muslim – 4050
Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reported:
This news reached ‘Umar that Samura had sold wine, whereupon he said: May Allah destroy Samura; does he not know that Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) said: Let there be the curse of Allah upon the Jews that fat was declared forbidden for them, but they melted it and then sold it ?
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Please just answer my question and if you can’t let’s wait for someone else
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I am answering your question but you don’t seem to comprehend.😏
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Haha.
Please comment on the difference between the two Arabic phrases I provided and the implications of both.
You can’t just say ‘it’s haraam’ and expect me to be satisfied
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Read above Hadith Sahih Muslim – 4050 carefully. When Khumr (Alcohol) was prohibited, one person was thinking that he is smart and can sell wine instead because the word “Khumr” was used to prohibit alcohol. See what Prophet Muhammad said about him.
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Yes so that’s exactly what I’m saying. We can’t make haraam what Allah has made halal. So there’s no use in being smart and prohibiting the whole pig when Allah only says lahm.
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OMG
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Peace!
Ahmad, regarding gelatin, if I remember correctly, Ghamidi Sahb did say that if something undergoes a chemical change, the حرمت is no longer applied to it. Mufti Abu Layth uses the same principle (استحالة) to say that gelatin is permissible, in his Monday Nights Session 126. If you haven’t yet, you can check it out.
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The issue that Ghamidi sahab just says the principles but doesn’t apply them 😂😂
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Ghamidi sab did answer this question in one of his meezan lectures. I’ll try to find the clip but in summary, he said we should avoid it. A Muslim’s attitude should be to avoid such things and not find ways to consume them. He also asked how many Muslims are actually willing to eat from the bone marrow of pig lol.
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I remember his answer that ‘some pieces of meat are attached to bone so the whole pig is haraam’
The simple answer to that would be that then don’t eat those pieces of meat.
We are not wanting to eat the bone marrow of pig. In a Muslim society pigs probably wouldn’t be slaughtered. Though in the west the reason many foods usually deserts or sweets are considered haraam is because of gelatine that’s why it’s an issue
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That’s not what he said. He said a Muslim’s attitude should be to shop themselves from going near haram and not try to consume what they can out of an animal that’s impure. It’s against the spirit of Islam. He personally holds the view that in places of fiqh where Islam is silent, a Muslim should decide for himself and we should avoid giving fatwas of haram and halal.
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You’re right, the real prohibition is about the flesh of swine as per the Quran. However, if something is not suitable for consumption, you generally stay away from everything that’s attached to it as well. That said, the sensitivity in such matters can vary from person to person. We should abide by what we understand to be the correct behavior knowing that we will have to justify it in front of God one day soon enough, and also allow others to form their own opinion.
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All praise for Allah, the all-knowing, the rightfully guiding.
As I see it.
Everything that we discuss, that we believe in is based on principles. It is vital that we understand the principles. The principles for this current topic have already been, very eloquently explained and I applaud the writer for that.
The principle behind forbidden things is always nourishment and garnishing of the human soul and body. For example, alcohol and gambling are forbidden. In alcohol and gambling, it is said that, there is some benefit for mankind and yet they are forbidden. We can not say that if there is some benefit, in a little wine, then we should go ahead and drink it. Another example would be the current situation in the world where alcohol is allowed. They always say “drink responsibly” and yet we have loss of life, wealth, and relationships because of alcohol. When we allow something then we cannot control how much or how little it will be used. It all depends on the person using alcohol. Since we cannot control human behaviour by spying on them, then we put barriers and prohibitions on that product. Gambling has the similar situation.
Let’s move on to the consumption of pork. It is forbidden, we all know, and through Islamic tradition and hadith we come to know the reasons behind it. We also know that it is the flesh of pig that is forbidden, then what of the bone marrow and bone. I would argue that every part of the pig belongs to the pig; it grew, it fed, it was nourished and it is part of the pig, it will have the same genetic components. If it is the characteristic of the pig, that is the reason behind its prohibition, then that characteristic should be in every part of the pig. We cannot say that a part of pig is halal and another part of the pig is haram. To make it simple for humans, it is completely forbidden, that in my understanding, about the consumption of pork and its by products.
Wisdom is a very important thing.
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I respect your deep analysis however it seems that the use of ‘lahm’ to specify the prohibition should not be overlooked
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My question is, how can one read in 10 seconds and understand it and then reply. It only reflects that it was not understood and a pre-prepared answer is generated. It takes me hours to understand someone’s post, to absorb it, to see the argument with the writers perspective. I definitely am humbled by your ability. 🙂.
Stay blessed, always.
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The above links are to shed some light on “A” perspective and how deduction plays a great part in our understanding. 🙂
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I think upon further reflection one can have a personal opinion that he should not eat gelatine from pork and other internal organs etc. However I think we have to be careful on not making what Allah has made haraam haraam by ourselves. The word used is clearly lahm and to extend that, by our own logic to mean gelatine is simply not supported by the text I think
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My dear young friend.
Your mind is admirable, indeed a rare mind. If you remember, we had a discussion on drinking water from a sabeel dedicated to another God and I said it is permissible and provided my reason. You were a little resistant to that idea. There were no written words in the quran about it and yet you extrapolated it to be nonpermissible. I could be wrong to remember it that way but that is the feeling I have about that conversation. If extrapolation is not allowed now then it should also be not allowed then. The principle should remain the same, correct!
I admire the concept of following the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. If we take one out then something misses out.
If one is convinced of something then why the question?
Stay blessed, always.
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Yes I remember that discussion. It was so long ago 🙂. Thank you for your praise but none of this is my own work, it is all Allah’s.
I think the principle is still that if someone gives you water that was specially, let’s say, used in a polytheistic rite or blessed by some sort of religious leader then it comes under ‘wa maa uhilla bihi lighayr illah’.
I think the spirit of the law is of course that the pig is a beastly animal. But the bones of a pig are the same as the bones of a cow. The meat is different and that is the differing factors between meats. Beef is more chewy than chicken for example.
So the spirit of the law is more subjective. The spirit is that tayyibaat are halaal and khabaith are haraam. But here God chose to specifically name a few things and make them haraam. So it’s already a matter of application and a branch of law rather than from an usul. So when he specified khinzeer with lahm I think that it is very important.
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Peace!
Ahmad, I’m sorry, what I am about to ask may not be relevant to this discussion, but why do you use وما اهلّ لغير الله به in the case of water. The Quran was addressing meat when it used this phrase. It shouldn’t apply to anything else. I’m curious to know your reason for using this in the case of water.
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Because the principle seems to be that if something has shirk included in it, then it is forbidden
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Peace!
I’m going to nag a bit, just to understand where you are coming from.
If some act has shirk associated with it, I agree that it will be haram (7:33). Once again, an act. So, for example, if a Hindu blesses a glass of water using the name of one of his gods, that glass of water should still be permissible. I do not see how this applies to matters of food, except meat. Surah Maeda is addressing meat specifically (in my understanding, of course). Carrion is haram and when, instead of invoking the authority that God has given you when He allowed you to consume flesh, you invoke the name of some non-existent entity, you commit murder and the flesh of that animal becomes carrion and hence haram. The same does not happen to a glass of water. When someone chants something on it, his shirk does not travel to you. I know I am digressing from the main topic, but your approach sparked curiosity. Your thoughts?
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Shirk as a principle is haraam do I am simply doing qiyaas on that
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Your question was asked to dr. Shehzad Saleem alongwith others. You can hear his response in the following link
https://soundcloud.com/ahsan-jalal-451039147/shehzad-saleem-pig-meat-non-meat-food/s-t6ZkmhBkEsO
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.many thanks
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.many thanksSponsor Ask Ghamidi
