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Why Did Allah Allow People Of The Book To Corrupt Crucial Details?
Ghamidi Sahab states that People of the Book removed the connection of Ibrahim (AS) from the Holy Kaaba and also ended up corrupting the name of the last prophet in the Bible.
My question is why did Allah allow this? Wouldn’t it be a lot easier for Jews and Christians to accept Islam and us to give Dawah to them if Allah had preserved these crucial details?
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37 Replies
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Why Did Allah Allow People Of The Book To Corrupt Crucial Details?
updated 3 years, 3 months ago
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Those who believe in Signs (of God) and listens everyone are already Muslim(submitted).
وَمَآ أَنتَ بِهَـٰدِ ٱلْعُمْىِ عَن ضَلَـٰلَتِهِمْ ۖ إِن تُسْمِعُ إِلَّا مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا فَهُم مُّسْلِمُونَ
And you cannot guide the blind away from their error. You will only make hear those who believe in Our signs so they are Muslims(submitted)
-Quran 30:53
وَمَآ أَنتَ بِهَـٰدِى ٱلْعُمْىِ عَن ضَلَـٰلَتِهِمْ ۖ إِن تُسْمِعُ إِلَّا مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا فَهُم مُّسْلِمُونَ
And you cannot guide the blind away from their error. You will only make hear those who believe in Our signs so they are Muslims(submitted)
-Quran 27:81
And
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ سَوَآءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ ﴿٦﴾ خَتَمَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَىٰ سَمْعِهِمْ ۖ وَعَلَىٰٓ أَبْصَٰرِهِمْ غِشَٰوَةٌ ۖ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ ﴿٧﴾
Indeed, those who hide(kufr) – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they will not believe. (6) God has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. (7)
-Quran ; Surah Baqarah
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Edit :
ضَلَـٰلَتِ means Astray mostly, not error..
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What do u mean by crucial details?
No crucial details have been changed. Tauheed, Prophethood, judgement day is all preserved.
They decided to follow letters and interpretations of their saints and sages instead of word of Allah
What actually Jesus AS said make up less than 1/3 of bible.
That’s why Allah repeatedly asked them to ponder on their own scriptures or challenging them to find evidence for their beliefs in their book.
However if u have some particular examples then plz do share
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I did mention what I mean by crucial details in the original question:
Connection of Ibrahim (AS) with Holy Kaaba and name of the Prophet (PBUH) which was supposed to “Ahmad.”
Ghamidi Sahab states these details were changed/corrupted over time, leading to their removal from the Bible.
These are crucial details because Jews and Christians usually consider this a barrier to accepting Islam since they don’t think Ismail (AS) and his children has any share in prophethood nor find any pointed prophecies convincing in the Bible that can refer to Prophet (PBUH) since he is not mentioned by name (particularly “Ahmad” because Qur’an highlights this name instead of “Muhammad” [Qur’an 61:6]) anywhere.
Hence my question, why did Allah allow these types of changes/corruption in the Bible to occur? Would have been better to have preserved these details, yes?
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I apologize, i didn’t pay attention to the actual question
1. What reasons do you have to believe that just because Muhammad SAW’s name is mentioned, Jews and Christians would accept his prophethood? Didn’t Jews rejected Jesus AS even though he spoke as a baby, showed them the ultimate miracles of miracle (giving life) and Christians who accepted Paul as their religious leader who invented holy trinity (also a copied dogma) and let Paul run away with the religion, invented interpretations from saints and cancelled the Shariah of Moses AS and made haram halal?
Even if We had sent them the angels, made the dead speak to them, and assembled before their own eyes every sign ˹they demanded˺, they still would not have believed—unless Allah so willed. But most of them are ignorant ˹of this˺ 6:111
Even if you were to bring every proof to the People of the Book, they would not accept your direction ˹of prayer˺, nor would you accept theirs; nor would any of them accept the direction ˹of prayer˺ of another. And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, then you would certainly be one of the wrongdoers
Those We have given the Scripture recognize this ˹Prophet˺ as they recognize their own children. Yet a group of them hides the truth knowingly. 2:145-146
So, there was ample evidence for the jews and christians to believe in Quran and Muhammad SAW but they chose not to believe. They could’ve Muhammad SAW’s lineage, his height weight, photograph and even then they would’ve found the way to deny him.
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1. I am not suggesting that presenting Prophet’s (PBUH) name will convince them but it will definitely complete Itmam-e-Hujjat since right now, Jews and Christians have a lot of room to reject Islam simply because they have no proof that any prophecies in the Bible refers to Prophet (PBUH) due to lack of his name nor connection of Ismail (AS) having a share in the prophethood.
2. Secondly, Qur’an itself says that Prophet’s (PBUH) name was in the Scripture:
Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘Children of Israel, I am sent to you by God, confirming the Torah that came before me and bringing good news of a messenger to follow me whose name will be Ahmad.’ Yet when he came to them with clear signs, they said, ‘This is obviously sorcery.’ (Qur’an 61:6)
So it begs the original question. If Allah was going to give the People of the Book the name of the Prophet (PBUH), why did He decide to let it get corrupted? Was it not the right of all Christians and Jews to get this sign if Itmam-e-Hujjat is the goal?
3. The verses you are referring to, from my understanding, refer to people to whom the Qur’an was presented or seen the Prophet (PBUH) and they rejected it/him so Allah comments on their rejection. It cannot refer to Jews and Christians I’m talking about since they refuse to even look at the Qur’an (nor have they seen the Prophet (PBUH) with their own eyes) until they find verification from their own holy books. Notice the issue? By corruption of connection of Ismail (AS) and removal of Prophet’s (PBUH) name, the bridge between us and People of the Book has been severed. A significant amount of them are not rejecting Islam because they see it as the truth (because they think there is no evidence), they reject it because it doesn’t fulfill their criteria i.e no name of last prophet nor connection of Ismail (AS). If they were to reject Islam after this criteria is fulfilled then the verses you highlighted would apply to them since by then they would actually have taken the Qur’an seriously and still rejected but this is not the case for a good number of them.
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You said that the Jews don’t believe because they don’t know of any connection between Muhammad saw and Ismail alaihissalam. Brother. Don’t they know that Aap saw was an A Quraishi Arab and that they are the descendants of Ismail alihissalam?
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They do know that. But they believe that Ismail (AS) has no share with prophethood. Only Ishaq (AS) and his children will have prophets. Since the Bible does not say that promise of Allah extends to Ismail (AS).
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The ayahs r definitely talking about jewsand Christians of all times. All jews and Christians can identify Muhammad SAW. Most conversion to Islam is happening for the past few hundred yrs among people of the book. There’s ample evidence for any Jew or Christian to be convinced about Quran and Muhammad SAW.
They rejected gospel of Baranabs, they would’ve rejected the name of Muhammad SAW as well either calling it an addition by Muslims when they occupied Christian lands or something else.
There r prophecies in the Bible today about Muhammad SAW still in the Bible and yet they r ignored
Regarding Ismael AS lineage, Jesus AS lineage is defined in the Bible, did Jews believed him?
This is your assumption that Christian aren’t believing because they can’t find Muhammad SAW name or Ismael AS lineage is not established neither it is necessary for itmam e hujjat at all
Even, for the sake of argument, if we assume that the name was actually removed, isn’t it the case for Quran too? There a so many sects that change the translation acc to their beliefs and people read it and have false beliefs even shirk. Would u say that Allah shouldn’t allow people to translate Quran wrong ? Not every Muslim have the means or time to learn arabic so how do they get to the truth? By reading and contemplating the whole Quran
Just like it is upto muslims to seek out the truth same is true for Jews and Christians
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“The ayahs r definitely talking about jewsand Christians of all times. All jews and Christians can identify Muhammad SAW.”
I don’t think Ghamidi Sahab agrees with you on this. He always stated that the audience of the Qur’an are those present in front of it, that’s why Allah punished those Jews and Christians only and not their descendants.
“They rejected gospel of Baranabs, they would’ve rejected the name of Muhammad SAW as well either calling it an addition by Muslims when they occupied Christian lands or something else.”
Barnabas has many issues, foremost that it rejects Jesus being the Messiah (yet Qur’an calls him Messiah) and foretells the Prophet (PBUH) by the name of “Muhammad”, not “Ahmad.” Qur’an claims the name was supposed to be “Ahmad” according to verse 61:6.
“There r prophecies in the Bible today about Muhammad SAW still in the Bible and yet they r ignored”
They are sadly vague though, a lot of rooms for Jews and Christians to explain that they do not refer to Prophet (PBUH) henceforth an exact name like “Ahmad” could easily fix this.
Regarding Ismael AS lineage, Jesus AS lineage is defined in the Bible, did Jews believed him?
His lineage in the Bible is not good enough since the Messiah is supposed to be a descendant of David (AS) through Joseph (Mary’s (AS) Husband) but since we know Jesus (AS) was born from a virgin, he doesn’t have the right blood to be the Messiah, being a descendant of Aaron (AS) (as Qur’an refers to Mary (AS) as relative of Aaron (AS) in Qur’an 19:28) so modern Jews rejected him.
Also it is strange to assume that Jews at the time of Jesus (AS) would believe him due to this lineage, they weren’t exactly carrying a lineage of him at the time, the lineage we have defined in the Bible was written years after his death and still manage to not connect to David (AS) as Jews required for their Messiah.
This is your assumption that Christian aren’t believing because they can’t find Muhammad SAW name or Ismael AS lineage is not established neither it is necessary for itmam e hujjat at all
But why would Qur’an mention the name then? Would have been better to not mention “Ahmad” in the Qur’an either right?
Even, for the sake of argument, if we assume that the name was actually removed,
It is not just an assumption, Ghamidi Sahab claims it was changed. You can look up Al-Bayan on Qur’an 61:6 for details.
isn’t it the case for Quran too? There a so many sects that change the translation acc to their beliefs and people read it and have false beliefs even shirk. Would u say that Allah shouldn’t allow people to translate Quran wrong ? Not every Muslim have the means or time to learn arabic so how do they get to the truth?
If Qur’an contained an important prophecy for an upcoming prophet and that was our means to identifying that prophet then yes, I don’t think Allah should let us falsely translate the Qur’an nor let us corrupt it.
But thankfully, there is no burden of a future prophet upon us nor did Allah allow corruption of Qur’an. In fact the main prophecies and concept were not allowed to be corrupted by Allah that now we can refer back to the Qur’an and realize where we went astray should any sect goes astray. This is not as clear cut with the Bible though which is a mess upon mess, it was not preserved despite supposed to be a means to identifying Prophet (PBUH).
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No, ayahs relative directly to the people of that time and also relative to people of the book today. They were punished cuz they were direct addressees and not that ayahs r only and only relative to them
Current 4 angels have more errors and historical additions than barnabas. Despite these facts (read Bart Ehrman books on bible corruption) 4 bibles still taken as canonical. Messiah is used in the quran to identify Jesus AS as the same person as Messiah of christianity. Its not a title but an identification. When barnabas wrote his gospel, Jesus AS wasnt given this title. This is not our point of discussion so leave it at this for now. The point is that Christians didn’t believe a far more reliable gospel than their 4 books. They would’ve found another reason for explaining the name Ahmad
same thing can be said about presence of the name Ahmad, its vague and its another person. Ahmad was never the name but his name was Muhammad SAW. The reports of his name being Ahmad were fabricated etc etc
No, Aaron was also a descendant of David AS just like Moses AS was. None of jews of that time said Jesus AS wasn’t a jew. He was a jew and hence from DavidAS
I was referring to jews in the last 1000 yrs or so who have access to the bible, they can read multiple forms of lineage of Jesus AS but still they didn’t and they don’t believe. This argument doesn’t apply to jews of that time.
Quran contained more important things than prophethood, Tauheed and akhira. But both these concepts is been corrupted by translations and interpretations.
Allah has given all the proofs and signs everywhere in His books and around us. Its the free will of people to ponder over these signs or not
Dr Hamidullah RA also had the opinion that the bible contained the name Ahmad, removed by the scholars after the time of prophet Muhammad SAW. However, there’s no objective proof (an old manuscript or something) except Quran (which is proof only for muslims) likelihood is that christian scholars removed the name and added another arabic word that later further changed by subsequent translations (bible wasn’t in its original language but a translation, what arab chrisitians had was also an arabic translation of bible and not original cuz the original bible had been lost long time ago. The 4 canonical bibles were selected from more than 100 manuscripts available at that time)
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No, ayahs relative directly to the people of that time and also relative to people of the book today. They were punished cuz they were direct addressees and not that ayahs r only and only relative to them
So all Jews believe that Uzair is son of God?
Current 4 angels have more errors and historical additions than barnabas. Despite these facts (read Bart Ehrman books on bible corruption) 4 bibles still taken as canonical.
Barnabas is also dated to be 1500 A.D and even if you stretch, probably can go to 1000. The 4 Gospels are dated 70-100 A.D. That is the main point why Christians go for the 4 Gospels despite much corruption because that’s all they have close to Jesus (AS).
Messiah is used in the quran to identify Jesus AS as the same person as Messiah of christianity. Its not a title but an identification. When barnabas wrote his gospel, Jesus AS wasnt given this title. This is not our point of discussion so leave it at this for now.
Then who and what is the Messiah?
same thing can be said about presence of the name Ahmad, its vague and its another person. Ahmad was never the name but his name was Muhammad SAW. The reports of his name being Ahmad were fabricated etc etc
When it comes to that point, then we can agree that they are just making excuses but you are only assuming this, the reality is that it is not you and I that are talking about Prophet (PBUH) being mentioned by name, it is the Qur’an. And hence, I am keeping the Qur’an 61:6 in focus here. Why did Qur’an mention Ahmad at all?
Again if Qur’an didn’t mention Ahmad, you would have a point i.e why ask for a name when it’s not needed BUT the reality is, Qur’an did give a name, Allah did give a name so the need for a name was there. Henceforth the argument will remain.
No, Aaron was also a descendant of David AS just like Moses AS was. None of jews of that time said Jesus AS wasn’t a jew. He was a jew and hence from DavidAS
……ummm you do know that David (AS) came AFTER Moses (AS) and Aaron (AS)……right? Kings did not exist before Kingdom of Israel that was established AFTER Moses/Aaron.
I was referring to jews in the last 1000 yrs or so who have access to the bible, they can read multiple forms of lineage of Jesus AS but still they didn’t and they don’t believe. This argument doesn’t apply to jews of that time.
As explained above, David (AS) came after Moses (AS) and Aaron (AS), Aaron (AS) lineage is the Levite and David (AS) isn’t part of that. Henceforth, Jews had no reason to believe Jesus (AS) was the Messiah based on his lineage and even to this day, Jesus’ (AS) lineage is not good enough. But the truth is if Jesus (AS) is not the Messiah as you claim then why would his lineage even matter? Because Jews only kept focus of the Messiah’s lineage, not just any Israelite prophet if Jesus (AS) was only that, and not Messiah.
Quran contained more important things than prophethood, Tauheed and akhira. But both these concepts is been corrupted by translations and interpretations.
Such as? Because Ghamidi Sahab goes against the idea that Islam has been that corrupted and lost among the sects.
Dr Hamidullah RA also had the opinion that the bible contained the name Ahmad, removed by the scholars after the time of prophet Muhammad SAW. However, there’s no objective proof (an old manuscript or something) except Quran (which is proof only for muslims) likelihood is that christian scholars removed the name and added another arabic word that later further changed by subsequent translations (bible wasn’t in its original language but a translation, what arab chrisitians had was also an arabic translation of bible and not original cuz the original bible had been lost long time ago. The 4 canonical bibles were selected from more than 100 manuscripts available at that time)
Your point? The situation remains the same, Allah gave the People of the Book the name of the last prophet and and allowed it to be lost. Why do that?
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No they didn’t but it point out an important landmark in their history when they deviated to shirk despite know how severely Allah punished shirk when their ancestors took a calf as god. therefore it remains relative to jews of today. Just u and i weren’t around when india was divided but its relevant to us
Barnabas is mentioned by Paul himself in Epistles of Paul meaning it cant be 1500 AD
Messiah is Jesus AS, the anointed one, a title for identification and thats it
My mistake, I should’ve written Jacob AS. Point was that Jesus AS was a jew. The line of David AS is a fabrication cuz they themselves assumed that messiah will be a military leader. (not the focus here anyway) Only reason I mentioned is because what u said about Isaac AS lineage. It doesn’t matter in my opinion.
I did not explain myself completely
Allah allowed different people to add shirk and false beliefs about akhira in their translations and tafseers. Why did Allah allowed that to happen? I would guess more than 80-90% of muslims read translations and not original text. Even the arabs cuz quranic arabic is very different than different arabic dialects of today. Its the natural evolution of language.
so why did Allah allowed removal / twisting of His word in translations?
Allah allowed Nusairees to interpret Al-Ali (His name) to Ali RA or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahab to interpret Khatim as he did or interpret word noor in 5:15 as noor-e-Muhammad (Muhammad SA noor is also timeless) among countless examples throughout muslim history.
Ghamidi sahab is absolutely correct because Quran is preserved. anyone can find true islam by reading it with tafakkur
this might be helpful (from another article)
“Isaiah 42 is among the earliest and the most common prophecies referred to by Muslims. Since the time of Muhammad [ﷺ], Muslims believed that it was fulfilled by no one other than him.[39][40] The first verse begins with: “Behold my Servant, whom I uphold; mine Elect…”. The Hebrew word which was translated to “whom I uphold” is “אתמך”(Etmokh). This word never appears anywhere in the entire Bible except here.Muslim authors, pointing to the similarity between the writing of “אתמך”(etmokh) and the writing of “אחמד” which is the name Ahmad, suggested that an intended distortion might have been done by the scribes of Scripture in the first verse of this chapter in order to hide the name of the Chosen Servant of God which is “אחמד” (Ahmad). Muhammad is believed by Muslims to be the Chosen Servant of God (courtesy wikipedia)”
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No they didn’t but it point out an important landmark in their history when they deviated to shirk despite know how severely Allah punished shirk when their ancestors took a calf as god. therefore it remains relative to jews of today. Just u and i weren’t around when india was divided but its relevant to us
I don’t think you can still cast a judgment upon all Jews and Christians today that they are aware of who Prophet (PBUH) is. Ghamidi Sahab says that there will be Jews and Christians whom the message of Islam will not reach (even though it’s available across the internet). We can’t assume they are convinced of his prophethood of Prophet (PBUH) let alone even be aware of all the details of Islam.
Barnabas is mentioned by Paul himself in Epistles of Paul meaning it cant be 1500 AD
Barnabas was the disciple of Jesus (AS) yes, but that doesn’t necessary means the Gospel was written by him, just like none of the Gospels are actually written by the authors they are attributed to.
My mistake, I should’ve written Jacob AS. Point was that Jesus AS was a jew. The line of David AS is a fabrication cuz they themselves assumed that messiah will be a military leader. (not the focus here anyway) Only reason I mentioned is because what u said about Isaac AS lineage. It doesn’t matter in my opinion.
Yeah but you can’t hold Jews responsible for not believing in Jesus (AS) now if all the related claims they got are either him being the Messiah in their sense or incarnation of God. It is rare to present Jesus (AS) as a prophet and some Jewish scholars even accept the idea that Jesus (AS) was either a Rabbi or a prophet that was turned into what he is now but without any pure message of his to investigate from, Jews can’t risk to accept him or associate with what they believe to be a demigod or a blasphemer.
However the lineage is important for Prophet (PBUH) because Jesus (AS) being a prophet is a thing but an Ishamelite prophet? A Jew can’t accept that without Scripture support. This is why your argument for Jesus (AS) doesn’t work and is not the same for Prophet (PBUH), so lineage does matter in my opinion. It may not have mattered for people during the time of Prophet (PBUH) since special Itmam-e-Hujjat was happening for everyone but today, many Jews and Christians see nothing special in Prophet (PBUH).
so why did Allah allowed removal / twisting of His word in translations?
This twisting doesn’t do anything because as you agree with Ghamidi Sahab, anyone that is willing to approach Islam with a right mind set will find the truth anyway because in the heart of the Islamic text, the message is still preserved. The Bible case is that the connection of Ismail (AS) and Prophet’s (PBUH) name has been uprooted to the point where you can’t blame people for not thinking that Islam has no connection with the rest of the Abrahamic religions because the crucial details are completely gone. Jews see Jesus (AS) as a failed Messiah (from their standards) and both Jews and Christians see Muhammad (PBUH) as a failed prophet (again from their standards). And honestly I don’t think I can blame them considering both Torah and Gospel warn against false prophets and only tell you to trust prophecies which seems to be lacking for both Jesus (AS) and Prophet (PBUH).
this might be helpful (from another article)
I am aware of all the prophecies that are offered for Prophet (PBUH) but the issue remains. This is food for my iman but it means nothing for Jews and Christians. They are going to tell you to read the whole Book of Isaiah and realize that it is talking about the nation of Israel as the Servant and not a particular person. The prophecies are vague. Henceforth a name could help and I know Allah choose otherwise but my main question is to understand the wisdom behind the decision, not WHAT IF scenarios.
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brother your question is in itself WHAT IF scenario
we do not know of any disciples of Barnabas hence it is more likely he wrote his gospel. Point is not who wrote what, point is that christians have had a much authentic document but they chose to prefer others over it
the lineage arguments is a very weak one and i don’t even think any christian would care about it (I accept that this is my assumption only, share if you know otherwise)
Muslims have so many deviant sects even when Quran is preserved. Allah did not stop people from corrupting His last book. Because He gave people free will to do as they like and also Nafs -e-Lawama / fitrah / consciousness to see and seek the truth
just like mindful muslims can leave their deviant practices so could christians too. There are bible translation that are considered “too accurate” hence discouraged, (bible translation by James Moffatt). The majority (53%) of reverts to islam are from Christian faith!
Allah mentioned the name Ahmad and its still there. rather than asking them why don’t u read Isiah 42, its only 11 ayahs. I’ll quote the last ayah
42:11 Let the desert and its cities shout out, the towns where the nomads of Kedar live! Let the residents of Sela shout joyfully; let them shout loudly from the mountain- tops
the first ayah mentioned Muhammad SAW name and last ayah points out to his ancestor Kedar
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/kedar/
In conclusion, Allah mentioned the name Ahmad SAW very clearly. No report is available where Christian or jews came forward and said thats a lie we don’t find that name in our books. Later, they changed the ayahs and translation upon translation later it has become more ambiguous. Allah allowed that as He allowed corruption of Quranic meaning because of free will. It is upto people to question and seek answers.
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brother your question is in itself WHAT IF scenario
Is it though? It’s more of a WHY question. The possible benefits of Allah not choosing to do something is highlighted by me but that is not the main focus, it is to know the wisdom behind why Allah eliminated clarity in the scripture. Is it a test for us, is it a punishment for People of the Book? It is because the name would be too obvious of a sign and hence nullify the test? etc
we do not know of any disciples of Barnabas hence it is more likely he wrote his gospel. Point is not who wrote what, point is that christians have had a much authentic document but they chose to prefer others over it
It’s not considered authentic by many. I personally accept Barnabas but I don’t think even Ghamidi Sahab accept it, he prefers the ones that Christians accept.
the lineage arguments is a very weak one and i don’t even think any christian would care about it (I accept that this is my assumption only, share if you know otherwise)
It is not very important for Christian because they literally pulled a demigod out of their scripture. But Jews are really, I repeat, really aggressive about entertaining the idea of a prophet outside Israel, they need proof to accept Ishmaelite prophet and to give up the Torah which is very sacred to them.
Muslims have so many deviant sects even when Quran is preserved. Allah did not stop people from corrupting His last book. Because He gave people free will to do as they like and also Nafs -e-Lawama / fitrah / consciousness to see and seek the truth
I still don’t think it’s the same scenario as what I’m referring to. You need to put yourself in People of the Book’s shoes, Allah gives a name to you and then allows it to be lost before the moment you could use it to identify the prophet. I think it ruins the purpose of prophecy so they assume the prophecy never existed to begin with, at least that’s how Jews and Christians see it when we present our corrupt Bible arguments.
I think Allah letting us find the truth through fitrah works but considering He has included prophecy of prophets in the equation, it becomes an issue because some Jews and Christians won’t leave their religion until they get the “Okay” signal from Allah. Only technique we have is to debunk the authenticity of their scripture and build their mind from scratch with Qur’anic framework.
Comparing this to the deviant sects doesn’t work since you can literally find the clean translation of Qur’an online. So Allah can question a Muslim for following the wrong idea but the average Jew and Christian? They are hopelessly buried under a layer of translations/meaning and so and even if they go across the layer, they will find missing information.
just like mindful muslims can leave their deviant practices so could christians too. There are bible translation that are considered “too accurate” hence discouraged, (bible translation by James Moffatt). The majority (53%) of reverts to islam are from Christian faith!
Issue is that are people converting to Islam for the right reason? Jews and Christians see us “twisting” their scriptures to fit prophecy for Prophet (PBUH) and they would consider us to be doing something evil rather than good as they see us “deceiving” people with those prophecies. So huge convert rate doesn’t help, reason behind conversion is more important in my opinion.
Allah mentioned the name Ahmad and its still there. rather than asking them why don’t u read Isiah 42, its only 11 ayahs. I’ll quote the last ayah
42:11 Let the desert and its cities shout out, the towns where the nomads of Kedar live! Let the residents of Sela shout joyfully; let them shout loudly from the mountain- tops
I read this like an hour ago when I was going through all the prophecies that a Muslim listed. Christians had their own responses for all of them (Same that Isaiah 42 is about Israel as that is the theme of entire Isaiah) . And the cycle continues. I am convinced even without the prophecy but it is obvious that Christians find this a desperate attempt by us to justify Islam and hence they aren’t so much denying the truth but rather feel offended at this act of ours. It seems like Allah has given a lot of room for them to maneuver. But why I ask?
In conclusion, Allah mentioned the name Ahmad SAW very clearly.
So you are changing your stance then? You went from Allah not needing to mention Ahmad to Allah is now stating the name very clearly. However the problem is that, Ahmad was not mentioned in the Torah, Qur’an says in 61:6, that it was mentioned by Jesus (AS), it needs to come from Gospels, not Old Testament though.
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Brother I just think whoever is reverting to Islam is doing that for the right reasons. I don’t have any authority to judge their faith or anyway to find out if they r sincere or not
The deviant sect example fits the scenario very good. Just like muslim needs a clean translation of Quran and a clean mind, Christians need the same things! clean Bible translation and clean mind
And ˹remember˺ when Jesus, son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel! I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Aḥmad.”1 Yet when the Prophet came to them with clear proofs, they said, “This is pure magic.” 61:6
It appears Jesus AS is referring to torah
No I am not changing my stance
First I tried explaining that’s it’s not a crucial point at all.secondly I tried to show that name was actually mentioned.
Off course Christian and jews would’ve responses. What’s wrong with that? Each Christian Jew or muslim look at the responses in their respective quests and make a decision.
You have an opinion about Karbala based on few points, you don’t think there can be very good logical response to that? Most certainly but u made up ur opinion after thought process. Same exact things happens to Christians and Jews when they read/hear about Muhammad SAW and Quran.
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The deviant sect example fits the scenario very good. Just like muslim needs a clean translation of Quran and a clean mind, Christians need the same things! clean Bible translation and clean mind
Yeah but it seems Christians and Jews face the extra challenge of corrupted scripture that the deviant sect example lacks.
It appears Jesus AS is referring to torah
Fair enough, I will accept this interpretation.
First I tried explaining that’s it’s not a crucial point at all.secondly I tried to show that name was actually mentioned.
I doubt any Christians and Jews will consider it though since the name only occurs if you accept a text distortion theory. (And in opinion of scholars, ignoring the context of Isaiah, leading to injustice on our part according to those scholars.)
Off course Christian and jews would’ve responses. What’s wrong with that? Each Christian Jew or muslim look at the responses in their respective quests and make a decision.
Because it feels like Allah has given them room to argue and stand their ground. It makes me question what is the goal of Allah here. He could have easily made the scripture point towards Islam and fill it with clear prophecies of Prophet (PBUH) but choose not to. It leads to barrier to Itmam-e-Hujjat and creation of more than just excuses. Or perhaps Allah does not want majority to enter Hereafter as Muslims?
You have an opinion about Karbala based on few points, you don’t think there can be very good logical response to that? Most certainly but u made up ur opinion after thought process. Same exact things happens to Christians and Jews when they read/hear about Muhammad SAW and Quran.
Yeah but originally you did state that Christians and Jews know exactly who Prophet (PBUH) is but are denying the truth. Issue with Karbala is that, no one can be absolutely right so we all have different opinions and that’s okay, but I don’t think that is a case in a process of Itmam-e-Hujjat (regards to Prophet’s (PBUH) prophethood) since in the end, you are either left with truth or people making excuses to deny that truth, not simply different opinions as is the case with Karbala.
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Christian and Jews have corrupted translations and exegesis to keep them away from original message. It’s corrupted, yes, but basic tenets of faith r easily accessible. Same is true for Quran and Muslims
We aren’t discussing this for any Christie Jewish group but to remove any doubts in muslim mind
I am not referring Karbala as a similar event but an example of event that can be interpreted differently and truth is what any person would believe in by using intellectual reasoning. With right mindset, Allah will guide each and everyone, that’s His promise
Jews and Christians have to do the same and they r doing it hence the reversion is Islam is, Alhamdulillah, increasing daily
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Okay, the thing is what you saying works for the Muslim and I’ll agree as a Muslim. But from a general perspective, there is still issue of why Allah created the current situation (the original question) i.e the prophecies for both Jesus (AS) and Prophet (PBUH) in Bible are vague due to corruption.
Why is Allah choosing to keep things vague on the surface? If the prophecies were really obvious that no one could deny them, would that have created issue that I’m not considering? Why give Jews and Christians room to justify their beliefs? Why put us in an constant state of debating which prophecies applies to who? Is Allah trying to filter out the stubborn?
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وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَا لِكُلِّ نَبِىٍّ عَدُوًّا شَيَٰطِينَ ٱلْإِنسِ وَٱلْجِنِّ يُوحِى بَعْضُهُمْ إِلَىٰ بَعْضٍ زُخْرُفَ ٱلْقَوْلِ غُرُورًا ۚ وَلَوْ شَآءَ رَبُّكَ مَا فَعَلُوهُ ۖ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا يَفْتَرُونَ ﴿١١٢﴾ وَلِتَصْغَىٰٓ إِلَيْهِ أَفْـِٔدَةُ ٱلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱلْـَٔاخِرَةِ وَلِيَرْضَوْهُ وَلِيَقْتَرِفُوا۟ مَا هُم مُّقْتَرِفُونَ ﴿١١٣﴾
And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy – devilish human and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent. (١١٢) And so the hearts of those who disbelieve in the Hereafter will incline toward it and that they will be satisfied with it and that they will commit that which they are committing. (١١٣)
-Quran 6:112-113
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I see, so it is both a test for believers and Allah filtering out the disbelievers.
I just assumed Allah would do this AFTER giving some time for people to consider the truth. Like AFTER People of the Book had analyzed the Qur’an and rejected it.
People of the Book, believe in what We have sent down to confirm what you already have before We wipe out [your sense of ] direction, turning you back, or reject you, as We rejected those who broke the Sabbath: God’s will is always done. (4:47)
But I guess I am not in a position to know how Allah is judging people. Most Jews and Christians proves to be hostile and arrogant without any right even before reading the Qur’an so I guess they might get rejected at that very moment by Allah.
Allah knows best.
Thank you for @Sid @altmash for the responses. I think I am satisfied.
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إِنَّهُۥ لَقُرْءَانٌ كَرِيمٌ ﴿٧٧﴾ فِى كِتَٰبٍ مَّكْنُونٍ ﴿٧٨﴾ لَّا يَمَسُّهُۥٓ إِلَّا ٱلْمُطَهَّرُونَ ﴿٧٩﴾ تَنزِيلٌ مِّن رَّبِّ ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ ﴿٨٠﴾
Indeed, it is a noble Qur’an (77) In a Book well-protected; (78) None touch it except the purified. (79) a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. (80)
-Quran ; Surah waqiah
people of book are pure people.. & they are said to believe and if they don’t then let them know.
فَإِن زَلَلْتُم مِّنۢ بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْكُمُ ٱلْبَيِّنَٰتُ فَٱعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ ﴿٢٠٩﴾ هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّآ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ ٱللَّهُ فِى ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ ٱلْغَمَامِ وَٱلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةُ وَقُضِىَ ٱلْأَمْرُ ۚ وَإِلَى ٱللَّهِ تُرْجَعُ ٱلْأُمُورُ ﴿٢١٠﴾
But if you deviate after clear proofs have come to you, then know that God is Exalted in Might and Wise. (209) Do they await but that God should come to them in covers of clouds and the angels [as well] and the matter is [then] decided? And to God matters are returned. (210)
Quran 2:209-210
And none of unpurified can have book..
and who cannot be purified??
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ وَيَشْتَرُونَ بِهِۦ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۙ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ مَا يَأْكُلُونَ فِى بُطُونِهِمْ إِلَّا ٱلنَّارَ وَلَا يُكَلِّمُهُمُ ٱللَّهُ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَـٰمَةِ وَلَا يُزَكِّيهِمْ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
Indeed, they who conceal what God has sent down of the Book and exchange it for a small price – those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And God will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.
-Quran 2:174
A Question, then how can you think that any Particular community that made a set of rules and convention without the basis of truth & changed the words of book can be called as ‘People of Book’????
Salam..
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I think it works for anyone who wants to think and reflect impartially. Not limited to musims, jews or christians
this is your opinion that Allah kept things vague and this is because you are giving way too much importance to 1 thing in the bible and for any thinking Christian / jew it would be the “whole” bible and “whole” quran. They find the whole bible full of contradictions, letters and stories of saints that do not make sense, the school of sainthood and their practices, overwhelming reliance on greek philosophy. they can also see the clear source of the quran, God describing himself as a just and true God. There r no favorites and He will stand by the oppressed, character of a rasool that would appeal to anyone, balance in forgiveness and retribution.
Every sign is clear but one has to make effort and show perseverance. Guidance is not so cheap and neither it is something that can be taken for granted.
Every one can justify their beliefs of any kind using the Quran / sunnah or bible or torah or science. History is full of such examples.
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“Every one can justify their beliefs of any kind using the Quran / sunnah or bible or torah or science. History is full of such examples.”
This would not be possible if the situation was not vague, no?
Jews and Christians during the time of Prophet (PBUH) never questioned his prophethood nor the related prophecies. Why is that?
Because the situation during that time was clear.
Modern Jews and Christians are now questioning the prophethood and the related prophecies. Why is that? Is the situation not clear as always or has Allah allowed it go vague. If it is vague then why did Allah choose it to be vague? And if it is still clear then didn’t any Jews/Christians argued similarly during Prophet’s (PBUH) time? Why are Modern Jews and Christians arguing about the prophecies if the situation is clear like before?
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so the examples I earlier quoted, Khatim, Noor in 5:15 and Noor e Muhammadi SAW, Al-Ali and Ali RA
Would you call them vague? and thats why people twisted them?
Not at all, it was clear then and clear now. Just because they could read Ahmad in the scripture more clearly than today (this is also an assumption but lets not discuss that right now). easiest refutation would be that his name is not Ahmad but Muhammad SAW. They never said that, why? because there were lot of other signs proving his prophethood. Same is true today. Just this 1 vague thing (in your view) doesn’t make a difference unless someone is insistent on denying. Nothing will be enough to make them accept Iman. Again, this is true for musims, jews and christians alike.
please explain how would christian or jews become muslims or stop questioning all the related prophecies if Ahmad was mentioned as clearly as Jesus AS in the bible? Wouldn’t there be many many reasons to deny?
I think u r assuming their reasons for questioning and also giving too much importance to this 1 thing without much evidence (I haven’t read or heard any christian scholar to come forward with this argument. However, many sunday priests mention it out of context though. The mention of Kedar easily refutes that it could be someone else other than Muhammad SAW, but I not knowing isn’t an argument so please let me know if I am making a mistake)
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so the examples I earlier quoted, Khatim, Noor in 5:15 and Noor e Muhammadi SAW, Al-Ali and Ali RA
Would you call them vague? and thats why people twisted them?
One may argue them to be vague but the way Islam is practiced as a whole would show that they can’t be vague. Traditional Islamic view gets favor. Similarly is the issue with Judaism and Christianity, they will favor their interpretation of prophecies over ours. For Jews and Christians, we are the “Khatim, Noor-e-Muhammadi, Al-Ali” text-manipulators, they will prefer traditional view over our Prophetic (PBUH) prophecies view.
Not at all, it was clear then and clear now. Just because they could read Ahmad in the scripture more clearly than today (this is also an assumption but lets not discuss that right now). easiest refutation would be that his name is not Ahmad but Muhammad SAW. They never said that, why?
But his birthname was Ahmad. Maybe that’s why?
please explain how would christian or jews become muslims or stop questioning all the related prophecies if Ahmad was mentioned as clearly as Jesus AS in the bible? Wouldn’t there be many many reasons to deny?
It will not stop them from questioning, it will at least get to accept that a future prophet is possible and start a conversation. Right now, Jews only expect a Messiah and Christians expect no one.
I think u r assuming their reasons for questioning and also giving too much importance to this 1 thing without much evidence (I haven’t read or heard any christian scholar to come forward with this argument. However, many sunday priests mention it out of context though. The mention of Kedar easily refutes that it could be someone else other than Muhammad SAW, but I not knowing isn’t an argument so please let me know if I am making a mistake)
Here is a site countering the prophecy along with Kedar point:
https://steelmanapologetics.com/is-isaiah-42-a-prediction-of-muhammad/
Here is another:
https://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp?file=40474
I can list more responses but they are more informal and not pleasant to read. But the demand for Prophet’s (PBUH) prophecies is pretty strong online because by default he is considered a false prophet by both Jews/Christians.
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wow! brother it seems you would go to any length to prove your view point
why it is hard to accept that words are clear but people twisted them for their own gains?
but it easier to question Allah that why He didn’t make it more clear or why He did not stop them from making those changes?
another weakest argument. So jews and christian of medina would know Muhammad SAW’s birth name give to him by his mother who passed away when he a child and he spent rest of his life with his paternal grand father and his family. No reported contact with his maternal family as a child or as a grown man? if this seems reasonable to you then your can accept it
secondly, I would request you to stay away from blogger and christian ministry websites, they aren’t looking for serious knowledge, they have an agenda and they will work on their agenda no matter what. Stretching of Kedar to an area of land is no scholarship.
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wow! brother it seems you would go to any length to prove your view point
As far as the concern of the question goes, I think I am satisfied a few posts back but if your view point is more correct, you are gonna have to give more than what you are offering right now.
why it is hard to accept that words are clear but people twisted them for their own gains?
They do, just that I don’t see how every Jews and Christian that is twisting the prophecies is doing that. It seems to be a bold prejudice that I’m not comfortable in applying to every Jew and Christian. If you see the problem from their perspective, we are the one twisting the words.
but it easier to question Allah that why He didn’t make it more clear or why He did not stop them from making those changes?
It is not to question Allah, it is to understand His wisdom. That it might bring peace to the heart. Why create the current vague situation? But you may not begin to answer this because you disagree that there is a vague situation to begin with.
another weakest argument. So jews and christian of medina would know Muhammad SAW’s birth name give to him by his mother who passed away when he a child and he spent rest of his life with his paternal grand father and his family. No reported contact with his maternal family as a child or as a grown man? if this seems reasonable to you then your can accept it
From my knowledge, Prophet (PBUH) was known as Ahmad bin Abdullah whereas “Muhammad” was a secondary name bestowed upon him by his grandfather, right? So I don’t think Prophet (PBUH) being associated with “Ahmad” was a secret. In fact it should be well-known, otherwise the Qur’an mentioning a secret name like Ahmad only makes the argument stranger, why would Qur’an mention a secret name then?
they have an agenda and they will work on their agenda no matter what.
This is what they say about us.
Stretching of Kedar to an area of land is no scholarship.
And who’s going to stop them? By their standard, it is scholarship.
This what I mean by vagueness of the situation. You can refute the Noor-e-Muhammad etc manipulation of the Qur’an because the original text will bear witness against the manipulation but you can’t grab the hands of these Jews and Christians because the Bible is a mess.
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Alright brother, if you r satisfied that Allah left things vague then keep looking, i do not think you will find anything enriching for your faith. Please share if you do
I am surprise that you believe that bible is corrupted and also believe that they (jewish and christian scholars) aren’t twisting the words? They have a history of corrupting their own scriptures, every faction of both jewish and christians have revised their books so many times. There own research has proven that.
but your argument is that they are innocent as the word Ahmad SAW is not in the bible so they can not come to islam because Allah allowed them to remove it from the bible. Similarly Allah allowed the translations of quran to be corrupted but we have the original text so we r ok. But christians and jews can not learn the history of scripture alterations done over centuries and come to conclude that Ahmad must be there and it must be altered?
7 days after birth his grandfather named him Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim, later Abul Qasim was added as Kunniyah after birth of his son Qasim RA
the reports for Amina RA naming him Ahmad SAW r like she had dream… There’s significant christian scholarship surrounding how muslims invented these to make the quran correct. M. Watt goes to length that there’s no Ahmad till atlest 125-200 yrs after the death of Muhammad SAW. Abu Talib has, reportedly, said some poetry calling him Ahmad in Shia litreture
His name was Muhammad SAW, Allah called him directly by this name in the Quran 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29
Ahmad isn’t a name but a quality. Similar to Mehdi, its not a name but quality.
All religious scriptures are devoid of any name given by any prophet for the next prophet in line. They always gave descriptions of qualities and attributes and reason is simple, names can be stolen (how many Mehdis we have in our history!)
lastly, its not upto us to stop anything. They have the right to prove islam wrong. Our job is to make our message as clear as possible and that is it.
you might find works of Bart Ehrman, Jay R Crook on Christianity more meaningful than William Lane Craig or Anis Shorrosh
its innocent to think that one can open the quran and convince someone what is the meaning of Khatim, Noor or similar beliefs. You will be bombarded with evidence from every corner of the world, the root word analysis, sayings of so and so, dreams and Ilhams and what not
People will always twist and argue till death to stand on their beliefs. Only the courageous few will come forward and show the strength to say the right thing. All this struggle is for those few people we may find in our path of life
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Alright brother, if you r satisfied that Allah left things vague then keep looking, i do not think you will find anything enriching for your faith. Please share if you do
It is not that I am satisfied on the idea that Allah left things vague, I think it is a reality that things are left vague. I am satisfied by the explanation the other brother has offered on why He left things vague. And there are other things that I can point out that are vague (not just the two I listed in this thread, I only limited to two so getting any answer would be easy since the answer to these two would be the answer to everything on the list) so the rabbit hole is a lot deeper than you think.
I am surprise that you believe that bible is corrupted and also believe that they (jewish and christian scholars) aren’t twisting the words? They have a history of corrupting their own scriptures, every faction of both jewish and christians have revised their books so many times. There own research has proven that.
I think the Jews and Christians that corrupted their scriptures are not the ones defending the corrupted versions. The one we are dealing with I believe are ignorant and are doing the best they can what with they want, which is a poorly-structured holy book that they are compelled to defend because their faith depends on it. A clear-cut prophecy could free them from this accursed fate but they are left to wander in the darkness it seems. I was wondering why would Allah do that?
But christians and jews can not learn the history of scripture alterations done over centuries and come to conclude that Ahmad must be there and it must be altered?
By the time they reach that level of thinking, they will be disowning their religion. That’s the issue, asking someone to disown their religion is a pretty big requirement. This is why Allah gives prophecy of future prophets so people may put their guard down and listen to the new prophet but now it seems they need to do this leap and jump through hoops (that involves discarding their entire religion) to understand how Islam is right religion. Sometime luck is on our side and some of them are not that much indoctrinated by their religion that they embrace Islam. But thing is that I don’t think anyone that is well indoctrinated by Christianity and Judaism will look at their scriptures, in the context of their text and conclude that Ahmad is there. Because at the very least, they should be claiming that there is an upcoming prophet just like how Jews admit that they will be a future Messiah. But since no claim is made, I think they honestly don’t believe that there is another prophet. That they are not hiding the truth, I think they are genuine and innocent in this regard and they are like that because Allah left them there I assume, at least that is my conclusion from all my pondering.
His name was Muhammad SAW, Allah called him directly by this name in the Quran 3:144, 33:40, 47:2, 48:29
In Al-Bayan, in footnotes on verse 61:6. Ghamidi Sahab states that Ahmad is the name given to Prophet (PBUH) and that Muhammad was his title. So now what?
All religious scriptures are devoid of any name given by any prophet for the next prophet in line. They always gave descriptions of qualities and attributes and reason is simple, names can be stolen (how many Mehdis we have in our history!)
But doesn’t verse 61:6 say that Ahmad is a name?
lastly, its not upto us to stop anything. They have the right to prove islam wrong. Our job is to make our message as clear as possible and that is it.
From our perspective, you are right. Issue is that from general perspective it doesn’t add up. Arguing Christian see Islam as just another religion and Jews see both Christianity and Islam as false religion because it is normal for them for God to send false prophets to test their faith. There is definitely a group of them that will not let their guard down until their own scriptures will permit it and they are so indoctrinated by the idea that their scriptures are flawless that you may grow white hair before they will start looking at Ahmad the way we do. It seems to me that we are locked in a constant state of debating, which is a fact because you can see this constant state of debating happening right now, the question is why would Allah allow such a state? What is His plan?
you might find works of Bart Ehrman
He has been criticized a lot by Christians scholars and Christians do use these scholars as a shield but I don’t think you need Bart Ehrman to see that Bible is not the Word of God. But Christians and Jews will drop their standards so low and still accept it because the idea of God authoring His own book is foreign to them, they are used to man-authored books inspired by God. It is crazy to get them to understand our standard but then again what can you expect from people who are okay with god becoming a man and being crucified? They are ignorant but innocent though because they have no reason to accept our standards.
its innocent to think that one can open the quran and convince someone what is the meaning of Khatim, Noor or similar beliefs. You will be bombarded with evidence from every corner of the world, the root word analysis, sayings of so and so, dreams and Ilhams and what not
I need not to convince them, I just know that since correct version of Qur’an is available, people can find their way through or Allah may call them to account. The thing e.g every Muslims knows about Tawheed so they can be questioned about this concept. Problem with Jews and Christians is that they won’t even admit there is room for a new prophet, so you can’t question them. Khatim, Noor and similar beliefs are perversion of existing concepts, concepts that at least Muslims know exist from text and will admit so room for accountability exist, what will do you with Jews and Christians that won’t even admit there is a new prophet, on what account are we going to question them about? That they don’t accept Prophet (PBUH)? They will just say that we didn’t even thought there was gonna be another prophet because our scripture hardly made it so. If there was room for a new prophet, I believe Jews and Christians would be waiting for him today but would reject Prophet (PBUH) anyway and on that Allah would take account and that would work but that is not the scenario, scenario is that things are just vague and Jews/Christians wander on blindly.
People will always twist and argue till death to stand on their beliefs. Only the courageous few will come forward and show the strength to say the right thing. All this struggle is for those few people we may find in our path of life
Which seems to give the idea that Allah intends to bring out a few Muslims converts and rest are condemned to a lost path? Because people aren’t going to stop twisting and arguing on the account of a religion they believe to be false according to their scripture and since the corrupted scripture bars the doors to “false prophets”, they won’t accept the message of questioning their own scripture. They are stuck I think.
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You and I think differently
To me, there is no vagueness whatsoever in basic tenets of faith. I will not believe Allah is Just if I think He left any vagueness in finding His path or He is favoring muslims over people of the book.
Things are clear but one need an impartial and patient heart. As I said, guidance isn’t cheap
As for those who struggle in Our cause, We will surely guide them along Our Way. And Allah is certainly with the good-doers. 29:69
Yes, Imam Islahi and Ghamidi sahab’s opinion is the same. I understood it differently. I’ll stick to my understanding for now but if I have to chose, I will go with these great scholars
May Allah guide us all and make us ones to guide and not divide and be guided and not divided
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You and I think differently
This is the issue. Jews and Christians reach a common point with us that we and them simply “think differently” not that one side is blatantly hiding the truth which was a pretty strong initial claim on your part. It shows the existence of vagueness otherwise one clear dominant idea would be present and rest would be following it but it is not the case, Jews and Christians well-versed in the scripture are not that intimidated by Islam. Rather they are just being tortured by the problems of the scripture itself and they may die in the confusion then to come to a conclusion that Prophet (PBUH) is prophesied by their scripture since that they would require them to ignore the context of their passages. They see us as Noor-e-Muhammad text manipulators, who ignore what scripture is really saying and insert their own stuff into the Qur’an. Just like we reject them, Jews and Christians reject our insertion. Allah should not have put us in such situation if there was no vagueness, if our “ignoring the context” approach is more righteous.
To me, there is no vagueness whatsoever in basic tenets of faith.
I never claimed vagueness in basis tenets of faith. There is vagueness outside Islam, there is vagueness for Non-Muslims, their path has been riddled with it, mostly because of the sins of their forefathers that choose to corrupt scripture rather than being honest Muslims. And in both Qur’an and Bible, it seems not uncommon to Allah to put a hard test on all Israelite on the account of bad decisions of the leaders.
I will not believe Allah is Just if I think He left any vagueness in finding His path
Let me list everything that is vague:
1. There is no historical evidence for Noah (AS), Ibrahim (AS) [nor his connection with Holy Kaaba] or Moses (AS). All we have is a stone tablet mentioning the House of David (AS) (and some records of later kings) that’s all Allah left us with. Only record of these people is the Bible and we admit that it’s not reliable.
2. There is no evidence that Exodus of Moses (AS) happened, we have no idea who the Pharoah was or how was the nation of Egypt punished since the Egyptians existed even in Prophet Muhammad’s time (PBUH).3. There is no historical evidence of Jesus (AS) and reality of the crucifixion has been made “dubious” according to Qur’an itself! (Talk about no vagueness?)
4. Then there are the prophecies of Jesus (AS) and Prophet (PBUH), both are so vague that Jewish scholars have been debunking them since forever, Christians claiming Christhood for Jesus (AS) makes sense since Jews admit there is a Messiah but no one admits there will be a last prophet so a group of Jews will always take Prophet (PBUH) less seriously than a Messiah claimant.Now you can claim that People of the Book are twisting, dishonest and what not, but you can’t seriously tell me that majority of them are dishonest, that’s just a harsh judgment. It’s no different than Christians claiming that all non-believers know Christ but knowingly deny him, you and I can bear witness that’s not true since we genuinely think Jesus (AS) is not god, there is no facade of innocence and it is strange to assume the same of non-Muslims.
Such a strong judgment is not even shared by Ghamdi Sahab except in cases of Shirk where he claims there is no argument for Shirk so Allah will hold people for account on that but there will be many Jews and Christians that come on Judgment Day not knowing about the prophethood of Prophet (PBUH), this is what Ghamidi Sahab highlights. You seems to be going against that view.
Anyway, I listed the vagueness above, you can’t really look at me and tell me that there is no vagueness there. If you can understand why there is vagueness, it would not seems that Allah is unjust but you will not see it since you aren’t admitting there is a problem. Do not close your mind to other point of views, entertain the idea, put yourself in other people’s shoes (which is something you haven’t done for Jews and Christians this entire discussion) and then maybe come to a conclusion that Allah is unjust for being vague.
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2)
He is favoring muslims over people of the book.
The idea is not that He is favoring them, is as you quoted, Allah can guide anyway He want, He can take a man lost in the north pole and guide him all the way to Islam so everyone has virtually equal chance of being guided however it is a reality that a large number of people will not die as Muslims. A big reason behind that is the vagueness. It seems with Qur’an 2:62, Allah is okay with the idea of saving Christians and Jews as well, and that’s the thing, it’s not about favoring, it’s that it seems Allah does not require a certain group of people accept Islam to find guidance and that makes me curious, why is it? Wouldn’t a world with a widespread of Islam not be better? Apparently not, and hence to know the Lord’s wisdom I must seek the answer.
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I am happy that you feel so strongly about the fact that Allah’s message should reach as many people as possible in the most clear way and their hearts are also open to it and not clouded by the clutter of historical errors, false claims etc
I never said (at-least consciously) that Christian and jews are hiding the truth. Always meant their scholars. Most common folk do not know whats written in the bible. Bible is used on 3 occasions, birth, marriage and death (parallel with how we treat quran). most christian convert to islam because they find confusion, corruption in the bible. Even if the all the prophecies about Muhammad SAW are unchanged, the over all corruption of the bible would’ve been enough to render it untrustworthy. Then the argument would be that muslims rule christian lands for hundreds of yrs and changed the scripture and burnt the original bible or something similar.
Plz allow me to share my perspective regarding the vagueness you mentioned, may be there’s some good in it
This is the problem of science and religion. Science can not confirm what religion is talking about, both, physically or metaphysically. Human knowledge grows very slowly because it is a rigorous process of experience, understanding, falsification analysis, theories, confirmation and deriving principles. Newton explained gravity and it took roughly 250-300 yrs for einstein to propose theory of relativity. Quantum mechanics discovered almost 70-80 yrs ago and still we don’t have a working theory or an equation to describe QM.
Allah sent religions to let humans know about Himself because it would’ve take human consciousness billions of yrs to come to the conclusion of a creator. Imagine early man standing outside his cave, he has too many worries to think than to ponder how sun is shining or rain is falling etc. Allah used physical miracles to prove His point because thats all humans know, the world we inhabit and nothing else. If He had opened up another dimension, how on earth we could’ve understood it?
Think if you we 500 yr ago and reading And He is the One Who created the day and the night, the sun and the moon—each travelling in an orbit 21:33. At that time u were schooled the Ptolemy’s model of planets where earth is center and probably flat. It must’ve been puzzling isn’t it? It was considered wrong or a mistake in the quran (this is only 1 e.g.) With the advent of human knowledge, we learned quran was never wrong.
Archeology was invented to prove historical narrative of the bible and it has done the most damage to it. Archeology is less than 100 yrs old, we still lack the tools to map the earth or oceans, most accurate method to estimate age is carbon dating, not perfect and destroys the specimen so can’t be used. If Quran proven correct about orbits, water cycle, water as basis of life, zygote then it will be correct about seven heavens, multiple earths, creation of life, Noah’s Ark, exodus and historical Moses AS and Jesus AS and relics about existence of Muhammad SAW will be discovered too, insha Allah. This is a process by which Allah provides guidance to all generations. Each generation will have evidence relative to their time proving Allah’s existence and Muhammad SAW’s truth. In the same way, it is the test for muslims of every generation too, who have to decide if they want to believe in the book thats proven correct over the centuries but in their time appears to be false. As I said, guidance is not cheap, neither eternal bliss is free
We are clear that crucification never happened. I believe that ayah (4:157) is referring to people who tried killing Jesus AS and not the chrisitians. The crucification and the original sin were invented quite a long time after the event had happened.
I agree with prophetic prophecies have been rejected and made fun of. Our job is to keep presenting Quran and the personality of Muhammad SAW. How can a book like Quran can be written by an unlettered shepherd? how can a man give ideas so not relative to his time (referring to concepts of morality in Muhammad SAW life and hadiths) how can a man act so strangely and completely opposite to his environment and upbringing? This will be more than enough to guide whoever wants to be guided
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Always meant their scholars.
Are all of their scholars working in the exact way? No single scholar break away and said, “I think based on scripture, there is room for a last prophet?” Are all of them are twisting the words? You need to reconsider your stance and try to consider Ghamidi Sahab’s view. Because it is against common sense, that every scholars is the same.
Then the argument would be that muslims rule christian lands for hundreds of yrs and changed the scripture and burnt the original bible or something similar.
This is a What-If scenario though. But even so, such a scenario would be better in my opinion. So it doesn’t help your case. You can however, address the original question and highlight why Allah never went for this scenario, one obvious benefit of it would be that I won’t be asking this question today.
Plz allow me to share my perspective regarding the vagueness you mentioned, may be there’s some good in it
I am afraid your perspective is……well not exactly strange but rather I’m not sure how this answers what I have put forth.
Why are you talking about science and religion? If I was reading Qur’an 21:33 in a flat-earth era, I would read the verse in context of it being a religious book, not a fact book, this is exactly how Ghamidi Sahab insists that you read the book and not look for number/science miracles out of it. So your example feels flat for me.
Then you talk about human knowledge being limited which is a strange argument to offer since I am not asking Allah to explain rocket science to me not sure why you are highlighting that Allah of opening another dimension example.
Then you talk about archeology not working out for the Bible and then focus on how Qur’an being proven reliable through scientific truth shows that it will be correct and that we can hope the missing historical information will be correct as well which again seems to make me question how it connects with anything I said.
Now allow me explain why all of this doesn’t even address my vagueness argument at all.
I am not asking Allah to explain rocket science to me in Qur’an. I am asking is that if Allah refers to figures such as Moses (AS), Ibrahim (AS) and Jesus (AS) then surely these historical figures would leave behind evidences because nations like Egypt, Romans and Greek left behind evidences. But Allah did not allow evidence of Moses (AS), Ibrahim (AS) or Jesus (AS) survive. Why is that, why the vagueness? If Allah so wanted, He could have made such figures well-known in history but choose not to? Why?
Qur’an is the truth FOR ME, as a Muslim, what it says is true. But my question was how everything has been made vague FOR THE NON MUSLIM because guess what, they don’t believe in the Qur’an. People have become atheists when they find out that Exodus of Moses (AS) didn’t happen, this is a foundation of both Judaism and Christianity! And once they go down this path, they will not care to look for Islam which they believe is an offshoot of these “false religions” henceforth the vagueness of the situation causes this. How is it a test for them when they will never even consider the Qur’an or its “scientific miracles” or anything since the vagueness have already turned them away? This is why what you said doesn’t seems to do anything for me.
We are clear that crucification never happened.
Tell that to the non-Muslims. (The atheists will go one step ahead and tell you that Jesus (AS) probably never existed either).
I believe that ayah (4:157) is referring to people who tried killing Jesus AS and not the chrisitians.
Let me quote what it says so you understand what I mean by the vagueness in it.
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (4:157)
“It was made to appear to them” So Allah made the situation dubious! The situation has been made vague to the non-Muslims. Why?
The crucification and the original sin were invented quite a long time after the event had happened.
Because Allah did not allow Jesus’ (AS) message to last. Again why?
I agree with prophetic prophecies have been rejected and made fun of.
Acceptance of prophecies is no longer an issue, the issue is that you need to bring out an example of a Jew or Christian that even admits there is a possible future prophet. Until then, we are the “Noor-e-Muhammad inserters” for them.
How can a book like Quran can be written by an unlettered shepherd?
I am afraid when you present the Qur’an as a collection of scientific truths, people start to view it entirely as a book like that. Soon they will start talking about how Qur’an talks about the sun “setting in murky water” before you need to explain to them Qur’an is just book of guidance, not a science book. Ghamidi Sahab is strictly against this approach of presenting Qur’an in what way you are presenting. Nor was Prophet Muhammad PBUH an unlettered person according to Ghamidi Sahab, unlettered according to him refers to gentile i.e Prophet (PBUH) was not an Israelite prophet according to Ghamidi Sahab, that’s why he is referred to as “unlettered” and that is what Isaiah 42 refers to as well, a prophet for the gentiles.
Conclusion, some people do not see Qur’an as anything special in the way you are arguing. I can talk about how Ghamidi Sahab suggests how to handle such a situation but right now, I am here to respond to your points.
how can a man give ideas so not relative to his time (referring to concepts of morality in Muhammad SAW life and hadiths) how can a man act so strangely and completely opposite to his environment and upbringing?
Before you could even present this character of Prophet (PBUH), you are going to have sit through all the misconceptions that Jews and Christians have about his morality and character to the point that his true personality will be lost upon them. This is so because guess what, things are vague. Especially when you go and try to explain the entire science of Hadith to them but they will drop and leave midway because they will see us trying to put forth a way to cherry-pick Hadiths so that can I present a flawless character of my prophet and appear deceptive to them.
This will be more than enough to guide whoever wants to be guided
I don’t think you are aware of what Muslims have to go through in most debates.
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scholars do not mean all the scholars in every age but the scholars who would do such things, I thought the context would would’ve made that clear but i guess it didn’t
its not what if scenario but to show you that even if that promise is fulfilled acc to your satisfaction (Ahmad SAW written as clearly as possible) even then jew/chrisitans found other ways to stay on their religion and you would be debating about why another thing is not mentioned and if it hadn’t been vague….
people who become athiest because exodus is not proven or there’s no evidence there was Moses AS or no evidence that Noah AS ark ever existed or his flood ever happened. What r they saying? that there’s no scientific proof and thats your argument too that Allah made all this disappear with time rather than preserving it.
the above scenario makes it religion vs science argument (all evidence of greek, romans were archeological discoveries and archeology is part of science)
I tried to show you that what u r saying isn’t new at all. In every time and generation there were scientific facts (relevant to the time ) that contradicted quran and it will remain so till end of time. Human understanding grows slowly and the quran proves its divine origin repeatedly in every age.
I mentioned examples from our past showing how quran was seemed fallible but it proven correct with time. The vagueness you r talking about will be proven, insha Allah, with continued development in human understanding.
I never said that quran is book of science, not at all. It does, however, points towards the universe around us and encourage us to find proofs of a divine being.
There are numerous examples how Allah attributed human doings to Himself. 4:157 is similar
I am purposefully not discussing the point u mentioned about Ghamidi sahab because it will take discussion somewhere else, just FYI
No one should present quran as “scientific facts” revealed to an unlettered person. It depends upon who r u talking to, talk science if the person can understand science, arrangement of ayahs and surah if the person had art background, so on and so forth. Allah says invite with Hikmah, that doesn’t mean one vomit out facts every chance he gets.
If someone does’t think quran is special then its the fault of the presenter rather than the presented
I do not know your background, but it does seem you r passionate about proving islam to people of the book. It is truly a marvelous goal but it is also very difficult. Debates seldom changes people, it is the slow reflection inside the heart that sows the seed of change in the heart.
there are many things that are vague in you mind, may be its a good idea to step back and rethink your line of argument and how u approach islam as truth and how do you present it to people of the book. After all, majority of reverts are christians so there must be things in islam that aren’t vague!
I also know that my arguments aren’t good for you and you aren’t convinced but thats ok. There’s food for thought in many unconvincing arguments too. Lastly, i would like to suggest to end this thread and u can start a new one and post 1 thing that vague. (I can continue but I don’t think i am helping u resolve anything) Hopefully some one more learned can answer in a much better way than I can
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scholars do not mean all the scholars in every age but the scholars who would do such things, I thought the context would would’ve made that clear but i guess it didn’t
Which means even the honest scholars do not admit there is a prophecy about Prophet (PBUH). Vagueness?
its not what if scenario but to show you that even if that promise is fulfilled acc to your satisfaction (Ahmad SAW written as clearly as possible) even then jew/chrisitans found other ways to stay on their religion and you would be debating about why another thing is not mentioned and if it hadn’t been vague….
It does not show anything because it is not happening. But it would be a good scenario to be in as the sound of Christians and Jews making excuses would be music to my ears.
people who become athiest because exodus is not proven or there’s no evidence there was Moses AS or no evidence that Noah AS ark ever existed or his flood ever happened. What r they saying? that there’s no scientific proof
I think you are overlapping generic atheistic arguments over what I am referring to. All that is needed is just supporting evidence. The ruins of Lot’s (AS) nation exists, no reason why Allah wouldn’t preserve other historical elements especially major ones such as the Exodus of Moses (AS) but He decided not to. Scientific proof isn’t needed, we don’t need anyone to demonstrate anything, just that as all major parts of history leaves major clues, it is not a big challenge to simply ask for historical evidence of Biblical accounts. But Allah choose not to. Why so, is an important question.
thats your argument too that Allah made all this disappear with time rather than preserving it.
This is not just an argument, it is a fact. Moses’ (AS) incident led to drowning of large army of Pharoah, Egyptians being careful record-keepers, did not mention this at all in their history nor the plagues that Allah sent upon an entire nation. It shows that Allah decided some things to be die out from history. The current situation is obviously developed by Allah, you cannot deny this.
the above scenario makes it religion vs science argument (all evidence of greek, romans were archeological discoveries and archeology is part of science)
But you mentioned the religion vs science argument BEFORE I mentioned the Greek, Romans and Egyptians.
I tried to show you that what u r saying isn’t new at all. In every time and generation there were scientific facts (relevant to the time ) that contradicted quran and it will remain so till end of time. Human understanding grows slowly and the quran proves its divine origin repeatedly in every age.
What does that for me, a Muslim, that already knows that Qur’an is infallible? How does that fix the issue of vagueness for Non-Muslims or explain its existence which has been the entire point of this thread?
I mentioned examples from our past showing how quran was seemed fallible but it proven correct with time. The vagueness you r talking about will be proven, insha Allah, with continued development in human understanding.
Do you have any idea how many people would have died not accepting Islam by the time this vagueness dies out?
I never said that quran is book of science, not at all. It does, however, points towards the universe around us and encourage us to find proofs of a divine being.
You didn’t say it but you are implying for any non-Muslims that it is, that it can looked at as purely scientific book and it will demonstrate knowledge beyond its time in every corner but it does not do that, by default it speaks to a people at a certain time with knowledge they can recognize and verify so the message can fit the nation properly, sometime it shows something that can be amazing for a Muslim but a lot of time non-Muslims will find it a book that it was a product of its time (as it should be because it was for a specific audience). It’s not scientifically amazing all the time, that’s why non-Muslims will never find it special. It needs to be presented in the same way as Prophet (PBUH) presented to his people and he did it without the science stuff.
human doings to Himself. 4:157 is similar
I don’t think 4:157 explicitly says that though.
I am purposefully not discussing the point u mentioned about Ghamidi sahab because it will take discussion somewhere else, just FYI
Funny because you derailed the discussion since your second post in this thread.
that doesn’t mean one vomit out facts every chance he gets.
I feel like you did do that. I talked about the vagueness in history and you threw scientific facts of the Qur’an.
If someone does’t think quran is special then its the fault of the presenter rather than the presented
I pity the presenter for the burden you have placed upon him.
I do not know your background, but it does seem you r passionate about proving islam to people of the book. It is truly a marvelous goal but it is also very difficult. Debates seldom changes people, it is the slow reflection inside the heart that sows the seed of change in the heart.
Brother……all I came to ask was an explanation for the vagueness. You seems to speculating my motives but not considering what I have been asking for the past 20 posts. I don’t really care what People of the Book do.
there are many things that are vague in you mind
There is nothing vague in my mind, the vagueness that I refer to is such a reality that I am baffled that I have argue to about it.
may be its a good idea to step back and rethink your line of argument and how u approach islam as truth and how do you present it to people of the book.
I have seen enough People of the Book being backed in a corner and forced to offer excuses for their fragile beliefs that I am really not interested to see anymore. However there are some that are in a fortress, with arguments that seems to be blessed by Allah, and I wonder why He supports them. Why allow the vagueness?
Lastly, i would like to suggest to end this thread and u can start a new one and post 1 thing that vague. (I can continue but I don’t think i am helping u resolve anything) Hopefully some one more learned can answer in a much better way than I can
No thanks. Consider this thread ended and I will not be responding anymore. My goal was never to resolve the vagueness but to understand its existence and it’s part in Allah’s plan (which you did a good job in derailing us from). I actually added two vague things in original question and hoped that a learned person would easily tackle the issue. Much to my surprise, the guy who argued with me on Iblees being insane showed up, I knew it wasn’t going to end well.
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