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Authenticity Of Hadith About Hazrat Fatima (R.A) And Parda
Assalamualaikum.
I across this hadith. Is it authentic?
And if it is authentic, doesn’t it mean that head covering was mandatory in front of unrelated men( except slaves)?
The Prophet (ﷺ) brought Fatimah a slave which he donated to her. Fatimah wore a garment which, when she covered her head, did not reach her feet, and when she covered her feet by it, that garment did not reach her head. When the Prophet (ﷺ) saw her struggle, he said: There is no harm to you: Here is only your father and slave.
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Authenticity Of Hadith About Hazrat Fatima (R.A) And Parda
updated 2 years, 4 months ago
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if you could provide Arabic text of this narration.
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Irfan Sahab, Following is the Arabic Text:
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عِيسَى، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو جُمَيْعٍ، سَالِمُ بْنُ دِينَارٍ عَنْ ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَتَى فَاطِمَةَ بِعَبْدٍ قَدْ وَهَبَهُ لَهَا قَالَ وَعَلَى فَاطِمَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا ثَوْبٌ إِذَا قَنَّعَتْ بِهِ رَأْسَهَا لَمْ يَبْلُغْ رِجْلَيْهَا وَإِذَا غَطَّتْ بِهِ رِجْلَيْهَا لَمْ يَبْلُغْ رَأْسَهَا فَلَمَّا رَأَى النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم مَا تَلْقَى قَالَ “ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ عَلَيْكِ بَأْسٌ إِنَّمَا هُوَ أَبُوكِ وَغُلاَمُكِ ” .
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Salam Alaikum
Any update???
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The principle is that when there occurs a hardship in following the commands and injunctions of Deen, God made it easy. This is stated as:
يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ
Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship (2: 185)
we find that servants are exempted from seeking permission every time they visit their masters, except for the time of privacy, in the following verse:
“O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you – some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. (24:58)
Hazrat Fatima has great sense of chastity and modesty. what she was wearing was enough, but still she felt uncomfortable. she wanted to cover her feet too, which was not necessary. So the prophet comforted her by saying that she needed not to be that particular in front of her father and slave, as slaves too have some exemptions and relaxation in such matters. they are not like strangers.
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But why was she struggling so much to cover from head to toe if covering these parts are not mandatory? Shouldn’t she have reacted completely normally, since the area between her neck to knee was already covered?
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Thank you for your reply sir.
But I’ve come across some websites that use this very hadith to prove that the feet are included in awrah.
How can we be sure that this is just an advice and not a religious ruling?
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السلام علیکم
دیکھیے مؤمن بھائی، عورة کوئی عربی زبان میں نادر لفظ نہیں ہے۔ اس کا مطلب کسی بھی معجم سے دیکھا جا سکتا ہے۔ میں ساتھ الصحاح کے مطابق اس کا مطلب لگا دیتا ہوں، آپ وہاں سے پڑھ لیجیے گا۔ یہ یا تو شرم گاہ کے لیے استعمال ہوتا ہے اور یا کسی ایسے عضو کے لیے جسے دوسروں کے سامنے کھولنے سے انسان شرماتا اور کتراتا ہے۔ کیا آپ کو لگتا ہے کہ پاؤں کو ایسا عضو قرار کیا جا سکتا ہے؟ مطلب مجھے تو نہیں لگتا کہ اس کا سوال بھی پیدا ہوتا ہے۔ 😅
رہی بات کہ یہ کیسے معلوم کیا جائے کہ یہ احکامات نہیں بلکہ نصیحتیں ہیں، تو میرے بھائی روایات سے دین نہیں لیا جاتا۔ آپ کے پاس خدا کی کتاب آگئی ہے۔ آپ دیکھیں کیا اس کے فریم ورک میں یہ باتیں اترتی ہیں۔ اترتی ہیں، تو لے لیں (آپ پہلے سے ہی ایسی باتیں لیے ہوئے ہوں گے ان شاء اللہ)، اور اگر نہیں اترتیں تو لوگوں کی افواہوں اور کلامِ خداوندی میں سے ایک کا انتخاب کر لیں۔
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السلام علیکم!
Sorry, I forgot to attach the entry from الصحاح. The first line clearly defines عورة.
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It is a wrong approach to extract principles from incidents, rather incidents are to be understood in the light of principles prescribed in the Deen. What she does is her choice, while the Quran says that when men and women face each other they should Lowe their gaze guard their private parts and if women have adorned themselves they should cover their adornment except for what is usually left bare. This exception includes face hand feet etc as they stay bare. Mind, that these bare body parts are adorned and allowed to be exposed to men.
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And what about these ahadith?
Abu Dawud reported from Umm Salamah that she asked the Prophet about a woman who prayed wearing a dir’ (chemise or upper garment) and a khimaar (head cover), but no izaar (lower garment). He said: “The woman is ‘awrah.”
Abu Dawud reported from Umm Salamah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that she was asked about a woman who prayed in a khimaar and qamees (dress or gown). She said, “There is nothing wrong with it if the dir’ (chemise) covers her feet.”
Seems like all the ahadith point in the same direction. I’m really confused.
Aren’t ahadith supposed to explain the details of the Quranic verses? Do we have any ahadith contradicting these.
Or are the ahadith weak?
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السلام علیکم!
پہلی بات کہ یہ اخبار اختلاط مرد و زن کے بارے میں نہیں۔ یہ نماز کے بارے میں ہیں۔ سنت رسول سے آپ تک نماز کا طریقہ پہنچ گیا ہے۔ کیا یہ احادیث ان پر پورا اترتی ہیں؟ کیا آپ دیکھتے ہیں کہ جب خواتین نماز پڑھنے لگتی ہیں تو اپنے پاؤں ڈھانک لیتی ہیں؟ لیکن یہاں صرف ترجمہ مذکور ہے۔ اگر اول متن فراہم کر سکیں تو شاید مزید مدد بات معلوم ہو سکے۔
رہی دوسری بات تو اس کا جواب تو صاف نہ ہے۔ احادیث لوگوں کی پھیلائی خبروں کو کہتے ہیں جو وہ لوگ دعویٰ کرتے ہیں کہ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم کے کسی قول، فعل، یا تصویب کو بیان کرتی ہیں۔ یہ ہر گز قرآن و سنت کی وضاحت نہیں کر سکتیں بلکہ خود قرآن و سنت سے وضاحت کی محتاج ہوتی ہیں۔ لوگ یہ بات اس لیے نہیں سمجھ پاتے کیونکہ ان اخبار کو ایک ایسا نام دے دیا گیا ہے جس سے ہمیں لگتا ہے کہ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم سے یہ سب باتیں ثابت ہیں ایسے کہ گویا آپ ہمارے سامنے کھڑے ان کی تعلیم دے رہے ہوں۔
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Also these ahadith:
The Prophet [صلى الله عليه وسلم] said,
“لَا يَقْبَلُ اللَّهُ صَلَاةَ حَائِضٍ إلَّا بِخِمَارٍ”
“Allah will not accept the prayers of a woman unless she is wearing a khimār [hijab].”
When Um Salamah was apprised of the aforementioned hadith, she went to the Prophet [sa] and said:
أتصلي المرأة في درع وخمار وليس عليها إزار؟ فقال: ”إذا كان الدرع سابغاً يغطي ظهور قدميها”
“Should a women prayer with a shirt, and khimār, with out an izār?” [a skirt that covers her from the waist down] The Prophet responded, “If her shirt is long covering the tops of her feet.”
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السلام علیکم!
Once again these reports are not about gender interaction but prayer. Secondly, I highly suspect these to be either complete fables or completely misunderstood. Also, I have no idea why the translation says Allah will not accept a woman’s prayer when the Arabic only mentions a menstruating woman. The second report may have something to do with the fact that the woman in question is not wearing any trousers, just a shirt. So, as a precaution, the shirt should be long.
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Yes, I checked it and it was about menstruating women. But are menstruating women allowed to pray Namaz?
And thank you for your replies bro
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السلام علیکم!
No, menstruating women cannot pray because prayer requires ritual purity. This is the opinion of Ghamidi Sahab, I believe, and the opinion of most scholars for that matter. Thank you for pointing that out. So, the report is against the Sunnah.
یہ تو میرا فرض تھا بھائی ☺️
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Salam Alaikum
I checked the hadith on this website and it translates حائض as a woman who has reached puberty, not a menstruating woman and it has been deemed Sahih
https://sunnah.com/abudawud:641
So if a woman’s prayer WON’T BE ACCEPTED without khimaar, how can we say that it’s juts aadab?
Please enlighten me
Thank you
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السلام علیکم!
Look, I’m a student of the Arabic language and I’ve just begun my journey, so I’m not going to be talking with full confidence here. @Irfan76 can confirm this but I think the word حائض has been translated as “girls who have attained to puberty” only to make sense of this report. It doesn’t actually mean that. It does mean a menstruating woman. Otherwise, the word used would have just been إمرأة or maybe نساء if it was in the plural. Why would the word used be حائض? And because some scholars believe that covering the head is mandatory for prayer for little girls as well, they have tried to make the word mean “female” even though it doesn’t mean that. Again, @Irfan76 can confirm this. I’m not saying this with certainty.
Coming to the fact that some scholars have deemed it to be Sahih, that is correct, of course. But these scholars, with all due respect, only take into account the chain of narrators of a report because they extract religion from these reports. They can’t take into account the actual text. Because then, how would you say that you can extract religion from these reports when you are the one judging whether what they are saying is correct according to the Quran or Sunnah or not?
Coming to your point about آداب. You are right. According to this report, if it is taken to mean what you are taking it to mean, it is not just etiquettes for a woman to cover her head in prayer. But ONLY for prayer. THIS IS NOT ABOUT GENDER INTERACTION. The report itself is still vague for me. Questions arise like: خمار on the head or خمار on the bosom? Why use the word “حائض”? Why not إمرأة or جارية if it pertains to little girls as well?
However, I would like to reiterate that one shouldn’t make these reports the basis of his religious beliefs. Rather, these reports are to be understood and judged by the basis of your religious beliefs. Namely, the Quran and Sunnah.
Also, I have attached an entry from Lane’s Lexicon (which is an excellent Arabic to English lexicon). Observe how he has to take up the issue of the word used in this report separately.
Please feel free to inquire further. We are all learning here.
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‘Adaab‘ are determined depending upon the nature of Ijma and Tawatur of Sunnah, whether that particular Sunnah is Farz, Optional or relates to Adaab category. Please refer to the following response (especially the response by Ghamidi Sahab):
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The other hadith is daeef
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Mumin Ahmad Sahab, it is very important to understand the approach in studying sources of Islam and how to approach them and which one takes precedence over other. As mentioned by Irfan Sahab above, It is a wrong approach to extract principles from incidents, rather incidents are to be understood in the light of principles prescribed in the Deen i.e. Quran and Sunnah.
It is important that we keep reminding ourselves of the following points as guiding principles while interpreting the meaning of any Hadith:
1) Unless one understands the principles on how to understand Hadith and what is its place within whole framework of religion, one will forever be faced with these predicaments where a point mentioned in a hadith would feel an isolated but complete directive of Islam, and sometimes in total contradiction to principles mentioned in Quran which form basis of religion.
To understand principles of understanding Hadith in detail, please see:
In this regard, following sub-points might be helpful:
a) The gradings that we find are mostly based on the chain of narration, there is no extensive work being done on the content (matn) of narration. Since it requires a lot of effort to study the content within whole framework of the religion, to see the context and to see all the available variants before reaching any conclusion along with arguments for why one is accepting one narration and why one is rejecting one; therefore, these gradings mostly don’t take the content of a narration into account. And even when they do, the lies a great degree of subjectivity in those gradings at the end.
b) No hadith ever adds or removes anything from the religion established from Quran and Sunnah, at most it is an explanation of some already laid out principle of Quran and Sunnah or Prophet’s (sws) seerah of how He (sws) followed the same principle of Quran and Sunnah. But the understanding of religious directives mentioned in Quran and Sunnah does not depend on Hadith, instead, the directives are understood first from Quran and Sunnah, and Hadith is to be seen in the light of that understanding and not the other way round.
c) After study of the whole religion and its sources, only things that can be religion belong to the following category:
– They must relate to ibadah
– Must relate to purity/tazkiya of body
– Must relate to purity/tazkiya of food
– Must relate to purity/tazkiya of soul (ikhlaqi tazkiya/ethics)
2) Ahadith are mostly lacking their complete context, which means for the most of the Hadith corpus, we have no way of knowing in what context a particular narration was said by the Prophet (sws), and what was said before and after those words. Therefore, we need to take guidance from Quran and Sunnah which are absolute and complete sources of religion and not dependent on any external/additional context for their understanding.
3) Ahadith always relate to matters of application related to absolute directives found in Quran and Sunnah. If taken in isolation, we will end up extracting absolute laws from matters of application and thus end up creating a jungle of mess from where it won’t be easy to come out.
To understand these points further, please refer to the following link and watch the linked-video (as this is very important in understanding the Farahi School’s Approach, otherwise one will always feel entrapped in contradictions if these principles are not understood properly):
Discussion 21789 • Reply 21983
The above discussion can be summed-up in following points:
We understand Hadith from ‘Quran & Sunnah” and not ‘Quran & Sunnah’ from Hadith because:
1) Quran & Sunnah are in ‘as is’ format as given by Prophet (sws) himself as a source of religion.
2) Quran & Sunnah are transmitted through the most reliable means of ijma (consensus) and tawatur (quoli/amali) of Sahaba (rta) and passed on from one generation to another.
3) Hadith is not in ‘as is’ format, rather, it is in ‘as understood by narrator’ format without any context or pretext of the discussion.
4) It is transmitted through Akhbar-i-Ahad (narrations of one, two people etc.)
Therefore, Hadith is bound to be understood in the light of Quran & Sunnah. And when we try to understand any Hadith (words as understood by narrator) in the light of Quran (exact words of Prophet), we would never go astray.
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The matter of Parda/Hijab has been dicussed at length by Ghamidi Sahab in Response to 23 Questions Series, and Ahadith which are primarily used to support traditional approach have also been discussed; also narrations which support the opposite argument have also been discussed. Please refer to the following eposides for an in-depth understanding of the matter:
Regarding Salah, the etiquettes are different for women and women have been asked to cover their heads while praying. Similarly, there are etiquettes for men as well, where men are asked to not fold their clothes etc. These are all etiquettes of Salah and they do not apply to situations other than Salah. Please see:
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Thank you for your explanation sir
My question is , how do we ascertain if something is a binding ruling or just aadaab?For example, in one of the above ahadith, it is stated that a woman’s prayer WON’T BE ACCEPTED unless she wears a khimaar. How is it then just aadaab?
Also, Ghamidi Sahab says that while Hadith cannot add something to the religion,but they can explain its details, right? So the first hadith of this forum could be an explanation of the details of Surah An-Nur Hijab Verse, no?How do we reconcile the fact that Prophet(PBUH) said that Fatima (R.A) need not struggle so much for covering her head and feet only because of the fact that there were only her father (PBUH) and here slave there with Ghamidi Sahab’s understanding of purdah? I guess I’m missing something here.Is this hadith unauthentic according to Ghamidi Sahab?
Thank you
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I have already explained at length in my above post how to approach Hadith corpus and threads shared contain very useful insight into this matter. The principles will be extracted from Quran and Sunnah and Hadth is to be seen in the light of Quran and Sunnah; and if some hadith on the face of it seems to contradict clear directives mentioned in Quran and Sunnah, then that hadith is to be interpreted in that light and not the other way round. Understanding of this Principle takes time because we have all been long fed the opposite principles where Ahadith are said to be final hujjat on Quran and Sunnah, or a real explanation of Quran and Sunnah, without taking into account epistemological problems in this approach.
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Yes sir I understand what you’re saying
But even if we interpret these ahadith in the light of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, we’d still reach the traditional conclusion, no?
I mean, none of the above ahadith explicitly contradicts the directives of the Qur’an and The Sunnah.One may as well say that hadith at the top indicates that Khimaar is the to cover the head as well not only the bosom(a question that’s left unanswered by the Qur’an) and “save that what’s normally apparent thereof” doesn’t include the feet. The rest of ahadith , too, are pretty clear about this issue. But as far as I know, the Hanafi school doesn’t consider the feet to be included in the awrah. Is it because these ahadith aren’t authentic? Or is it because there are more authentic ahadith indicating the contrary?
I don’t think these hadith contradict the Qur’an and Sunnah, so why do we reject them?
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السلام علیکم
First of all, we don’t take something as serious as religion from narrations of individuals after God has revealed His message perspicuously and it has reached us completely. Think about it. Do you think the messenger of God left the message of God to be conveyed by rumours?
Now, about this report. I don’t know whether this ever happened or not but one can raise some questions. For example, was أنس the slave of Fatima رضى الله عنها? Because if the only people there were the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and the slave, only the slave can narrate this later on. Or is this أنس بن مالك? How did he came to know about this incident?
Even if this event occured, it doesn’t prove anything. We should understand that if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted to set a specific dress (as in what should be covered and what can remain bare), he would have done it publicly and it would’ve reached us through تواتر. Nothing like that can be found. By this report, one can only assume that Fatima رضى الله عنها was picky about her feet and head both being covered. I’ll try to make my point of view clear through an example. We hold that men can bare their chest in front of others (and that is probably how at least some of the 7th century Arabs dressed). Even if one doesn’t hold that opinion, he will probably allow baring one’s chest to his mother or father. But I may not be comfortable with that and maybe when I’ve taken my shirt off and one of my parents enters the room, I will try to put my shirt back on. Now, if, in this scenario, you are present and you say, “Don’t worry, it is only your (parent),” can I take it to mean that, in your opinion, baring my chest in front of others is wrong?
ایک بندہ اہتمام کر رہا ہے اور اہتمام نہیں ہو رہا تو آپ بس کہتے ہو کہ یار، کچھ نہیں ہوتا صرف اپنے ہی تو ہیں۔ ان کے سامنے کیا اہتمام۔ اس۔کا یہ مطلب نہیں کہ باقیوں کہ سامنے لازمی ہے۔ بس تسلی دینا اور غالباً روکنا مقصد ہے۔ میرے خیال سے اس وجہ سے کہ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ملنے آئیں ہیں اور فاطمہ رضی اللہ عنہا اس اہتمام میں پڑ گئی ہیں۔ ذرا سوچیے، یہ ہم میں سے ہر کوئی کہے گا کہ میں ملنے آیا ہوں آپ اہتمام میں پڑ گئے ہیں، اس کی ضرورت نہیں۔ آکر میرے پاس بیٹھیے۔
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I have watched Ghamidi Sahab explaining a few other ahadith in the purdah series (23 questions) and I’m satisfied with his explanation. Has he discussed any of this ahadith in some other question-answer video? If yes, I’d love to watch it.
I’m really impressed by Ghamidi Sahab’s logical explanations.
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