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God, Fear, Love And Truth
Born a Muslim in Pakistan, now living in Canada but think I will become Christian if no satisfactory answer to the following question is given. Please reply satisfactorily otherwise just pass this question directly to Ghamidi Sahb.
I had a debate with a Christian and like their concept of God more than the concept of God we have.
Why Allah as we know him in Quran seem to motivate us more by fear than by love? Has he lost faith in humanity? Why he talks more about patience than happiness? Isn’t life a balance between the two? Why he talks more about being humble than being confident?
When comparing Islamic version of God with that of Christian version of God – the following come to mind.
A God who doesn’t die or doesn’t take pain is not worthy of my respect – let alone my love or worship. How can we worship a God who gives us pain and makes us die but himself doesn’t take pain or die. Is might right? I don’t believe the true God follows the rule of the jungle?
Who would you respect more? A leader or a king? A leader proves by setting an example. A king is who just orders and sits idly. Is it Godly to not take pain and die and say things like ‘I don’t care even if the whole world turns unbeliever’?
I would rather believe more in the God who proves by example, comes down in a limited body and challenges himself, dies in the prime age of youth of 33 years, takes pain like we do and sets an example. It is not a marvelous thing to create the world – What’s marvelous is – Can you come down and leave your powers for others?
What is the sacrifice of Islamic God? Why we call him As-Sabur? He has nothing to show patience for. Even if he takes pain of people not following him doesn’t account for the sort of pain we take. More accurately – the pain of death. The crux of the matter is that he doesn’t die. Period!
After all, what right does God who doesn’t prove by example, to challenge us with life or to test us. Who gave his this right? Isn’t it too convenient for Islamic God to just order us stuff while all this time sits alone somewhere?
I always wondered – how can anyone love God if he begins from fear? “There is no doubt in this book – guidance for those who fear God’. No doubt fear is important too – like in Christianity there is fear of God too but they start from love. How can you drive 120 km/hr on a 0 litre fuel? If you don’t have love, happiness and confidence what are you fearful, patient and humble for?
Not one verse of the Quran speaks about God’s love for humans. It only talks about our love for God and so too sparingly. All we find is the lip service of – ‘God loves you more than seventy mothers’ – but even that too is not in the Quran. Here’s a quick sample of verses from the Bible – Can you find me an equivalent in Quran?
You may not know me, but I know everything about you.
Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up.
Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways.
Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.
Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image.
Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being.
Acts 17:28
For you are my offspring.
Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived.
Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation.
Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.
Psalm 139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.
Acts 17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother’s womb.
Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born.
Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented by those who don’t know me.
John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love.
1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.
1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child and I am your Father.
1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could.
Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father.
Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.
James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.
Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.
Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love.
Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.
Psalm 139:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing.
Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you.
Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession.
Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul.
Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things.
Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.
Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart.
Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires.
Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine.
Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager.
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.
Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.
Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes.
Revelation 21:3-4
And I’ll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.
Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus.
John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.
John 17:26
He is the exact representation of my being.
Hebrews 1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you.
Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.
1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love.
Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me.
1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you from my love again.
Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I’ll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen.
Luke 15:7
I have always been Father, and will always be Father.
Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is…Will you be my child?
John 1:12-13
I am waiting for you.
Luke 15:11-32
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21 Replies
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God, Fear, Love And Truth
updated 2 years, 11 months ago
7 Members
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21
Replies
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You had a debate with a christian without reading Quran? At least read the first verse “bismillah…” or the first chapter that starts with “Rahman and Raheem” in the first verses. Please also make sure you read the whole Bible before converting to avoid surprises later.
Read surah Ikhlas to learn about the concept of God. That is the true God. You worship Him or not doesn’t make any difference to Him. He will do with you whatever He likes when you return to Him. No one can’t tell Him no rules. You are no one to tell Him what he was supposed to be like. Also Google the meaning of “Al-Wadud” – it’s one of God’s beautiful names given in Quran.
Suggest you structure your thoughts and ask one question at a time so it’s easier to answer your questions.
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Respectfully brother your answer seems to be filled with arrogance and it’s making him more reluctant towards Islam. Don’t do this because if you can’t answer someone don’t speak. Your answer is nothing more than extremists’ representation of Islam.
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yes agree, my tone could have been better. Apologies.
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What makes you think I have not read the Quran? You didn’t answer my questions. All you did was show me the lip service (words without action) of ‘Rahman and Raheed’ and ‘Al-Wadud’ as if I don’t already know that.
My question was very simple but you were not able to answer it. Read it full one more time. It is a philosophical question, not that I need to reiterate it to make sense to you. If you are intellectually honest to yourself. Ask yourself this – How can God do to us what he doesn’t choose for himself. Is it Godly to ask of others what you yourself can’t/don’t do?
Would you teach your children to follow you out of fear and speak of him things like ‘Look you’re just a creation of a drop of semen’ or ‘See how ungrateful you are’ or you would tell you children ‘I know you can do this’, ‘I will always love you and would never stop doing good to you’.
Simple question! It’s just that you don’t want to answer it 😛
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Just saying God is Rahman and Raheem isn’t enough. It’s lip service. It’s like saying, ‘See how Rahman and Raheem I am, am I not enough to wipe out the world from kafirun?’ That’s how God talks about himself after that one beautiful and lovely verse of bismillah all through Quran. No words of appreciation and love. I don’t deny that God of Islam doesn’t pardon sins. But that’s not enough. First you have to show your love, in order for fear to make any sense.
If all this is too hard for you to answer and all you got is rants about how less I have read Quran. Then please forward this question to Ghamidi Sahb. I have more respect for him than a nobody passer-by like you who don’t understand philosophical and etymological questions.
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Your answers hurt more than they heal. You’re doing more disservice to Islam than good. Stop doing injustice to Islam. Pass the question elsewhere. You’re not equipped to understand the question. It is not your everyday ghusl and 3 talaq question for which you want simple one-line questions. It is philosophical question that can only be asked with details and needs to be addressed by someone who’s well versed in comparative religion and philosophy. Which of course you’ve proven, you’re not worthy of answering.
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Alight, let me understand your question first:
Are you saying God was not worthy of worshiping before Jesus died 2000 years ago?
If God has ordained death for us, are you saying he should show us how to die first?
Does God have to worship someone else before he can ask you to do it, otherwise it’s not godly?
Is it God who’s in a better position to tell us what is Godly and what is not or it’s you?
If you ask your gardener to cut the grass, would you have to show him how to do it first?
Is it the Canadian government who will tell you what laws to follow or it’s you who will tell them whose laws in the country you would like to follow and since the government is not acting as a “leader” but more of a “king” you don’t like to follow them?
You don’t like to work for a company that explains the rationale of the company’s SOPs, reward employees who follow them and warns of dire consequences if anyone don’t follow them?
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Good questions. That’s exactly what I wanted. The ball is in my court and I am loving every bounce of it. Thanks for getting back to me.
Who is God? If God deems Patience as a virtue. Shouldn’t he be the most Patient? If he deems Sacrifice a good thing for us. Shouldn’t he be the most Sacrificial? All I say is stop calling him As-Sabur. What is Allah patient for? He doesn’t die or feel pain. Wow! I wished I could be God. It’s so convenient being God.
And do you know who is the Prime Minister or President of the Country? In the analogy you used. No Sir! He is not King. He is the biggest servant. He is there to serve people. He’s responsible for their affairs. It is our Muslim mindset that’s skewed to think otherwise – that produced the likes of Zardari, Nawaz Sharif, Khomeini, Saddam Hussain and Gaddafi. Who lived for their own God. You become like the God you worship. You become the ideal you glorify. It is not that God ideals has to be different than your own ideals.
Jesus himself said that ”He being God, is the servant of people’. He served us, showed us how to handle pain and overcome life. We’re God’s responsibility. Not the other way around. It is this sick mindset we Muslims have because of which we have not invented anything after Charpai (please don’t bombard me here with Golden Age Syndrome Muslims have – they were mostly Atheists – Ar-Razi was Atheist for example) and have waged countless wars in the name of Islam. Not once Jesus ordered wars. He was one who gave the second cheek while we have the laws for retribution and revenge. He said he who has not sinned throw the first stone on to the woman who was punished to death by Sansar/Rajm.
Show me one Christian who is Christian because of the fear of death if he leaves Christianity. I can show you millions of Muslims who are Muslims because of stupid peer-pressures living double lives and fear leaving it. Who the hell are other people to judge someone based on what goes on in under one’s own skin?
God is worship worthy because He’s Godly. He doesn’t need to worship some other God. He worships his own ideal, his own glory, his own Father. For you it’s hard to wrap your head around. But think it this way – the only Prophet – even according to Islam who raise the dead (Godly resurrection) or who will come at the end of times – is Jesus. Not Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Noah or Adam. Why Jesus? Why Allah says in Quran that Jesus is Word of God. Is any other Prophet called that?
The truth is Jesus had the same nature as God himself. To make more sense of this – God, Jesus and Holy Spirit moves in the same current of the Ocean. They are the base Mind, Body, Spirit. God-head, The Father – God-in-Flesh, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Jesus never sinned – even according to Quran.
2000 years ago – people worshipped God without knowing his manifest form. Without knowing him in person. But when Jesus was born – he showed his examples in flesh. Of course, both time and space are needed aspects of manifest reality so Jesus has to come some time as he did 2000 years ago. If he came 5000 years ago, you would have said why not 10,000 years ago and so on and on. You have to start from somewhere. You can say God before 2000 years ago was not as clear to us than it is clear to us now.
The truth Islamic God is more like mental whirlpool with no personal or emotional connection. There is no true relationship without an eample, without a connection, without having Father, Child or family relationships just as we have in this world. How can I God sit idly, isolated from the whole world as in Islam we are told? Isn’t relationship and family what God needs too just as we need it? What deems as virtue for us and good for us – Why is that not good for God?
In Christianity – God refers us to as his children. The whole creation is his family. He is connected by heart through love first and foremost. Fear is only needed in the world – not in the hearts. In Islam God wants to see your servanthood. Why? Is servant and king and love relationship? There is no heart in it. Only mind!
Ball is in your court!
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Let’s decompose the question first then discuss the components one by one:
Are you saying God in Islam is a false God and true God is one given in Bible or are you saying it’s the same God but you like the Bible concept better than Quran?
Once we have agreed on the true God we can talk about His attribute whether he is loving or not , etc.
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All I am saying is that – I am a Muslim by birth, practice it too, pray too, read quran too but the more I do and the more I look at how the world works – things are not adding up for me. It seems now that the only reason I am staying a Muslim is because of peer pressure or what would my kids say to other kids in the school. That sort of stuff 😛 Not a very good reason to stay Muslim, isn’t it?
Why I decided this way? Because I interacted with both Molvis and Priests and tried to understood the nature of God from both of them to be fair – In order to find the true God who I can die with (loving-compassionate God not a fear-mongering never-pleased God?)
In all the discussion I had so far – It is clear to me that God of Islam can’t be the true God (not even God as depicted in Surah Ahad). The problem is that no matter how true-sounding you are; you’re not going to keep people in your hearts by force or fear. It simply ain’t the way the world works. Furthermore, you have to show compassion, love and set an example to be called > GOD.
Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can be God. God has to be special. He can’t be just too superficial to say that ‘I am so great; so what I created is so awesome’. No Sir! You’re God – it’s not so marvelous to create this world. What’s marvelous is to do what you ask others to do. Take pain and die. Show us your sacrifice – What’s your sacrifice? Can you come down and leave your powers for others? Just as we do everyday for others?
Show what you got Sir! Don’t just sit on the throne and have a sip of beer while 20 million kids die of hunger in Africa. Show us that you suffered the same Sir. Any God can create what you created. Otherwise if God’s not like that. Then what’s the God’s Sunnah. Is God’s Sunnah, ‘To hell with you, I don’t care if the whole world becomes disbeliever’. Then I too will follow that God’s Sunnah and say, ‘Okay! to hell with your test, I don’t care about your fear or your sugar-coated lies’.
God has to prove by example. It’s just too convenient for him to ask us do this or that while he watches the Pakistan vs Australia match. Might as well have a sip of his favorite beer.
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So Justin Trudeau can be a god based on your criteria as he is a mortal, compassionate and loving person who works hard to improve quality of life of Canadians, right?
So you mean a true god is the one who blames every new born of the original sin (of stealing an apple from his garden), then after thousands of years of making failed attempts to cleanse people of the “sin”, his unlimited compassion for humanity forced him to send his own son to fake a “painless miraculous” death on the cross and come back harmless in three days time to announce all believers have been finally forgiven of the apple stealing charge?
And the above version of god makes more sense to you than the one Creator of the universe who sent us on earth with free-will and tons of other resources with a designers role (a far superior role than many other creations) and tasked us to create solutions to the problems humanity is facing (aka good deeds) with a stick and carrot system to ensure optimal performance?
And it’s us who will create our own god to worship as per our own criteria or are we supposed to find the true God the Creator, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnificent, no matter how different He is from our expectations?
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“I had a debate with a Christian and like their concept of God more…”
Religion is not about following our own desires. It’s about finding and surrendering to the truth. After spending the due time and effort if someone sincerely believes that Christianity is the correct viewpoint, then that’s exactly what they should follow. God has made it absolutely clear in the Quran that there’s no compulsion in religion and that everyone will be judged according to their own sincerity and effort.
I must also add here that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are not separate religions. God has sent down only one message to the dwellers of the planet earth. Adam AS was the first prophet of God who preached this message, and Muhammad SAW was the last of the chain of prophets who kept reminding the people of the same. We consider all previous scriptures to be the word of God and the Quran to be the last one. Just like people after Muhammad SAW differed and divided into separate factions like Ahl-e-Sunnah, Ahl-e-Tashi, Ahl-e-Hadith, etc., people before Muhammad SAW also did the same and started calling themselves Jews and Christians.
“Why Allah as we know him in Quran seem to motivate us more by fear than by love…”
Such a misconception can only stem from not understanding the nature of the book we call the Quran. I suggest that you first understand what kind of books the Quran and the Bible are. As far as the Quran, the following videos will certainly help. Also this question makes it very evident that you are yet to read the Quran from cover to cover. Once you understand the nature of the book, I suggest that you do that.
“A God who doesn’t die or doesn’t take pain is not worthy of my respect – let alone my love or worship…”
Unfortunately, the message of God has no bearing on such emotional arguments; it is a message which establishes itself purely on rational grounds. The purpose of the message of God is to warn us about an awesome event that awaits us – the Day of Judgement. Those of us who put in the sincere effort to understand and adapt to this message are destined to be granted an eternal life of joy and comfort. To the contrary, a great suffering awaits those who make a play out of it or deny it in arrogance.
“Is it Godly to not take pain and die and say things like ‘I don’t care even if the whole world turns unbeliever’?…”
Again I suggest that you read the Quran. I also encourage you to read the Bible. Such a statement can only stem from ignorance.
“I would rather believe more in the God who proves by example, comes down in a limited body and challenges himself…”
I would too if such had actually happened and could be proven beyond reasonable doubt, however, sadly that’s not the case. The basis of such belief is nothing more than conjecture.
“Not one verse of the Quran speaks about God’s love for humans…”
All I can suggest is that please read a good translation of the Quran from cover to cover. I empathize with you because there are a lot of other people like you who get the same impression by reading the book in bits and pieces, especially when what they read are sub-par translations. Also I strongly suggest that you go through the Introduction to the Quran videos shared above.
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It might help to go over the content in the post below as well:
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The notion that God has to be always compassionate, who shows mercy on his people all the time has serious ethical problems. The notion of all-time compassionate God goes against the ethical value of Justice. The attributes of God as mentioned in Quran (i.e. knowledge, power, providence, justice, wisdom and mercy) don’t contradict eachother, infact they co-exist under umbrella of Justice. It is against the value of justice, for a God to be compassionate toward a rapist, murderer or someone who became arrogant and denied the message of God out of arrogance, and forgives them when there’s no basis available for forgiveness.
The fear of God, from the persepctive of believers is not the kind of fear that you feel after seeing a snake or lion for instance, this is more of a fear of not displeasing one’s God, whom one believes on rational grounds (for which evidence is available ranging from intuitive to empirical domains: Discussion 1630) and after believing that, submits himself to His will. This is the definition of Muslim. Thus, after submitting one’s will to Allah, one naturally tries not to do anything which displeases the God. This is the kind of fear that stems out of love, the same way a child child fears his father despite loving him so much to not displease him.
God talks about patience considering the overall scheme of tests and trials that has been instituted in this world. God has promised eternal life for those who achieve purity (‘tazkiya‘) in this world while going through tials and tribulations of this world. This world is not created on the principels of ‘rainbows and unicorns‘ where God descends to this world in a human body and offers himself as a grand-sacrifice for the sins of the believers. The decision will be based on pure merit and justice, which is both ethical and logical, based on one’s performance in this world. To understand the scheme of tests and trials in detail, you may want to refer to the following resource:
I am also leaving a couple of Quranic verses talking about mercy of God:
وَ اِذَا جَآءَکَ الَّذِیۡنَ یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ بِاٰیٰتِنَا فَقُلۡ سَلٰمٌ عَلَیۡکُمۡ کَتَبَ رَبُّکُمۡ عَلٰی نَفۡسِہِ الرَّحۡمَۃَ ۙ اَنَّہٗ مَنۡ عَمِلَ مِنۡکُمۡ سُوۡٓءًۢ ابِجَہَالَۃٍ ثُمَّ تَابَ مِنۡۢ بَعۡدِہٖ وَ اَصۡلَحَ فَاَنَّہٗ غَفُوۡرٌ رَّحِیۡمٌ
[Contrary to their desires,] when these people who believe in Our revelations come to you, say: “Peace be to you.” Your Lord has made mercy mandatory upon Himself so that if anyone among you commits evil our of foolishness and after this repents and mends his ways, then God is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 6:54)
قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِيْنَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوْا مِنْ رَّحْمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيْعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُوْرُ الرَّحِيْمُ. وَأَنِيبُوْا إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ وَأَسْلِمُوْا لَهُ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَن يَأْتِيَكُمُ الْعَذَابُ ثُمَّ لَا تُنصَرُوْنَ.
Tell them: My servants, who have been unjust to their souls [by associating partners with Me,] do not lose hope in God’s mercy. God will forgive all the sins. Undoubtedly, He is very Forgiving, Ever-Merciful. (Quran 39:53)
Following videos shed light on the concept of attributes of God and fear of God:
Please refer to the video below from 53:14 to 55:41
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Please also refer to the video below from 39:48 to 43:41
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Umar bhai, Faisal bhai and Wadud bhai. Thank you for your responses. I am pleased to hear from you all. It is good to receive response but I would be more pleased if you answer these questions more intellectually and without a bias towards Islam.
Let me start with Faisal bhai. I really liked when you said, ‘I would too if such had actually happened and could be proven beyond reasonable doubt, however, sadly that’s not the case. The basis of such belief is nothing more than conjecture.’
Why you think that’s conjecture? Guess? Throwing stones? When 2.5~3 billion people believe it did happen. Aren’t you only 1.5~1.8 billion? Wouldn’t God want the right view of him be known to majority of people? (Now please don’t start with fastest growing religion stuff – fastest growing is atheism not Islam).
So isn’t it conjecture to believe in Zulqarnain story, Sun in muddy pond, throne of Bilquis moving, Mano-Salwa for Jews, Jews turned to literal Apes and Pigs, Stars will be dropped on Earth on Judgement Day (how can so many big things drop to one small thing?) or various other myths in Quran and accept/believe on face value? How can God say – produce a single Surah like this. The last time I checked – God wasn’t sarcastic. Or is he? You know what Ar-Razi (the Scientist of Golden Age of Islam) used to say about this claim of Allah?
“You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: “Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one.” Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets… By God, what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation.
Then you say: ‘Produce something like it’?”
~ Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi
(854 CE – 925 CE)
What I am saying is that speak fear all that you want, Oh God – but at least start from Love. Come on! Let me give you an example. You love your kids but you’re also cruel to be kind – right? Your fear is to make him better, not to cause him depression. Not in one place in Quran God says stuff like this:
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love. (John 4:16)
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you. (John 3:1)
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand. (James 1:17)
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope. (Jeremiah 29:11)
Because I love you with an everlasting love. (Jeremiah 31:3)
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore. (Psalm 139:17-18)
I will never stop doing good to you. (Jeremiah 32:40)
Bhai all I needed from Allah was one Surah like this in the Quran yaar. We can’t live with our wives without expressing love – How can we live our whole lives with a God who’s too shy to express love?
Even when you type in Google ‘Love of God in Islam’ you’ll see countless videos on ‘Love between man and woman in Islam’. Type the same with ‘Love of God in Bible’ and see what happens. Kyun bhai? Don’t we need love? Why treat us like sub-humans? That’s how we are raised to believe and continue to tell the fear-mongering stories to our kids and produce the likes of Zardari, Khomeni or Saddam.
When will this circus end? You want to stay Muslim because ‘Log kya kaheinge’ or ‘Chalo darr ke so jatay hain’ or ‘Koi chup karao yaar is ko’ Is this a Godly spirit? Even Surah Rahman is full of ‘And what else blessings of God you will deny’ then continues with the fashion of ‘How disbelievers will end up in hell’. That’s really funny. First do the lip service of blessings then tell people about what will be the end of disbelievers. First say Bismillah, then say how to take Jizya from disbelievers – to make them humiliated. First say Al-Wadud, then say how we all are small and dirty for God – as a sperm.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too, Sir! God of Islam has not shown his worth yet. Worship comes later. First comes respect, then comes love then comes worship. How can I worship a God who I don’t respect? Who wants to rule me as a King. What example is he setting for me? Should I follow his Sunnah? Be like him too?
Islam is more about learning do’s and don’ts. Christianity is more about knowing God. There is a stark difference. See their fruit and see our fruit. See how they treat human beings, animals, love for others, they give you passports, free health care, free school for your kids, Police talks like they are your grandfather – you give them what? Kafils and Rakibs? Work Visas? No entrance in Mecca/Medina?
We Muslims are the cause of misery and fight in the whole world. Have you seen a Buddhist burning a Christian Embassy or a Hindu destroying the Christian Churches? Whether it’s Rohinya, Uyghurs, Palestinians, Iraqis, Iranis, Afghanis – whether victim or victimizer. There should be an English Proverb, ‘Where there is a Muslim, there is a Trouble.’
Now it’s turn of Umar bhai. Why you speak more of Justice than Mercy? Why? Isn’t God’s mercy more than his wrath? Speak of justice all you want. But at least start from Mercy. Saying Bismillah isn’t enough. Give us some food before you want us to work hard. You can’t expect us humans to follow a book filled with riddles and puzzles without any sense of motivation.
I am not saying there is no fear of God in Christianity. Please read the past posts I posted. It is Christianity that views fear of God important to stay in love of God. But that ‘Fear’ is means to an end ‘Love’. But in Islam we are just told to Fear God (that’s end in itself). Imagine dying to a God who’s never pleased. You wished you never die 😛
Five times prayer create guilt if not prayed (on time). Rituals screws us day and night. Wouldn’t it be much better for God to tell us to perform rituals only when they come from your heart? What use is prayer that doesn’t come from heart but is just a quick half-assed acrobat? Why this compulsion (There’s no compulsion in religion – Wow!). Forget about compulsion to leave Islam or not. There is compulsion in the very core of this religion, Sir!
With Islam everything is so convenient. Say there is no compulsion in religion and take jizya or kill blashphemers/infidels/apostates. Say God loves you and then gives a list of do’s and don’ts that don’t solve any real problems in this extremely fast paced and intellectual life. Say don’t put your heart in this life and marry as many as four wives or use Islam for your benefits.
Islam can only be used – it can never be followed. Not a single nation on the face of the Earth follows Shariah fully. It is simply not humane enough. Cut the hands of thieves Sir! Even that of a kid who stole a piece of bread to save his mother. Prepare 4 witnesses to prove rape Sir! Because of course it is such a great site to see a women being raped. If you’re going to say women used to accuse innocent men etc. Why give men more authority in cases of rape. Can’t men also lie about rape? Don’t we have DNA tests these days. Only a careless God who doesn’t know future would allow such a law. Laws should be open – like they are in Bible.
I went through the videos you posted Umar bhai. They were terrific. However, Ghamidi Sahb mentions a type of fear in religion. But he didn’t talk about love of God in it. Khair hoga toh boleinge na. Never mind! Bhai baat simple hai. Love and Truth are pairs. Just like Humility and Confidence, Patience and Gratitude, Love and Fear, Hope and Repentance etc. Bhai but emphasis Fear, Repentance, Patience aur Humility pe kyun hai sara? Love tail lene gaya?
Yin/Yang pairs of God are – Rahman (Motherly Love) and Raheem (Fatherly Love). One love is ‘I love you unconditionally’ and the other is ‘I love you if you do this or that’. Where is the Rahman (Motherly Love) in Quran? – Where is that unconditional Love to start with – as there is in the Bible?
“Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.”
Corinthians 13:4 to 7
God doesn’t love rapist or murderer. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t loves him as much as to take him back to become without sin or cause things that can reconcile him like asking for pardon from murderer’s family or taking punishment. Isn’t that also what Quran preaches? That in one Hadith God said that if unbelievers know how much I love them – their bones would burst (idhar bhi dehshat gardi hi hai waisay God sahb ki – love ko bhi bones burst karnay se tashbeeh de rahay hain janab).
The problem is – Islamic idea of God is counter-productive to create a good human from heart. I have tried the mental gymnastics many times – it doesn’t work. It’s all in the minds, nothing in the hearts. Have you seen – How apart from Ghamidi Sahb all other Mullahs talk? Allah said in the Quran I don’t like the bray of the donkey and that’s exactly how they talk. They shout!
Where is this aggression coming from – Have you ever wondered? From a God who doesn’t like painting, music, art, dance, sculptures, humor, joy, fun. My God is rather creative and likes creativity in me. My God is not the one who wants me to just wait to die and call this world a fly’s feather. Without this world – I would have to known my true God. How can this world be bad?
Chalo Nuff said.
Ball in all your courts.
Wadud bhai you will also get a response when I think you are starting to put paragraphs nicely or have intellectual replies that make sense. First cleanse your mind from prejudices and Muslim way of thinking about Christians. To be fair – Read from Christians what they believe – not Muslims. Just as you would learn how to fly a plane from aeronautical engineer and not a paan wala.
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Let me give you another analogy to make a point. Maybe you’ll like it.
Suppose you were God and could do anything. Know the future; know your own future; can create anything. What’s the challenge for you? Isn’t life boring for you? For such a God nothing is excited, isn’t it? The challenge would be to leave your powers – Come down in limited body – Face life – Feel the pain – Die in the prime age of 33 – Raise the dead (which only God can do) – Set an example – So that those humans whom you evolved to be consciousness enough to know right from wrong can say with pride – my God is awesome!
A lot on your plate? Just think for a while! Why worship a God who doesn’t show up? Is God only Al-Batin? God is Az-Zahir too. Isn’t it? He is both manifest and unmanifest. He is both first and last (He will come at end of days). He is Patient One (as Jesus took pain and death).
Sometimes I feel – Quran proves Christianity more than Bible does. I mean – all these names – Ash-Shukur (Thankful one), As-Sabur (Patient One), Az-Zahir (Apparent One) are more aligned with God-head, Jesus and Holy Spirit than an family-less isolated fear-mongering never-pleased God. Who wants to sacrifice us goats and ourselves but shows no sacrifice of himself.
Do you know why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son? To test him. Right? You know how God proved he does what he says? By sacrificing Jesus. Some food for thought for you. As we Muslims are too fond of telling people see signs of God. I am showing you signs all you want – but would you listen?
Khair janay do.
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Salman sahab your comments above contain many misconceptions and I’m afraid that it won’t be possible for me to explain each one here without you first having a firm grip on the basis of ideological differences between Islam an Christianity. I have already shared my suggestions with you in my previous response as to where you can begin. What you do with those suggestions is entirely up to you.
The only thing that I would like to comment on is that the number of people believing in something has no bearing on its being true or false. For example, before the 17th century the entire world believed in the earth being static before Galileo championed the idea of heliocentrism. Similarly, before Einstein the whole of the humanity believed the gravity to be a force expressed mutually between two objects.
In order for any idea to be deemed as true, it must establish itself as such on the basis human sources of knowledge. Unfortunately, the Christian ideas of Trinity and atonement fall short of this criteria.
If you have further questions regarding any concepts within the Christian ideology or require any help in understanding some of the difficult concepts in the Quran, please don’t hesitate to create separate discussions with one objective question per discussion.
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I know Faisal bhai, you tried your best. And I respect you. But I am yet not convinced and will baptize next week Sunday. And I was right! I am so happy that I found my loving God. One who I looked for all these years.
Thank you Umar bhai and Wadud bhai too.
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Congrats on finding your path
I just finished reading your posts and other brothers answers
You seemed very passionate about the fact that God is only God because He felt pain like us, sacrificed His power and you said a lot of things about Love of God
But brother, it’s all too emotional. It appears then you went through some personal trauma and found comfort in a human God who felt pain just like you and who was helpless just like you (no disrespect intended)
1. Why do u think God is love, it should be God is justice! what kind of God would love and let all evil prevail on earth? What kind of God loves his followers but allowed them to massacre similar followers over 2000 yrs history (refer to a book Holy Horrors, a small book and not by muslim) muslims did same but they r just like their God ! but what Jesus AS followers did that?
2. What about the verses of bible speaking about wrath of christ upon his second coming?
for e.g. For behold, the LORD will come with fire and with His chariots, like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His sword the LORD will judge all flesh; and the slain of the LORD shall be many. Isaiah 66.
this “all love” notion doesn’t fit how the world works at all! even christ won’t love upon his return
3. Why does God had to suffer to understand our suffering? He created us, shouldn’t He know already how we suffer? what is logic that creator has to transform in order to understand its creation??
4. Beside Jesus AS never suffered orphanage, or pain of betrayal of spouse, death of one’s child, suffered economical inequality etc etc. He only suffered 1 way of suffering that does not happen to most people (beating, rejection by public and crucifixion) but he never suffered anything most of us go through everyday for thousands of years? He should’ve chosen the most common sufferings and went through it so we could relate to that.
Him getting beaten up by other people is useless to me when I was robbed by a banker, left alone by a friend in time of need, buried my child, treated unequally by my employer, raped and molested by my father! Christ does not understand all these sufferings, how can he guide me? his pain of rejection by his people is no match for me to see my rapist / murderer go free or is it?
5. Real test is not become powerless, real test is to have all the power and might but decide not to interfere in human free will. Thats As Sabour!!
Brother Salman, I did not want you to think/respond with problems in islam. You already mentioned a lot. Not that any of your claims can’t be answered but because wrong islam doesn’t prove Christianity is true. Both faiths should be judged individually
My intention is not to convert you but u ask you if u had considered your new faith rationally just like you make decisions about everything in life or it is because you find islam unfit or irrational or christ healed a wound in your soul that islam didn’t
Personally, I came very close to christianity when i went through a very tough time in my life, also met a brother who had converted to christianity after losing his daughter. I went through the religion and its history and concluded that it doesn’t answer my pain and sufferings of daily normal living. What the preachers r saying can not be found in the bible or the recorded history, contradictions in bible verse and interpretations r enormous, concept of love and turn the other cheek never happened in history by christians, most heinous crimes r committed by early christians to other christians. Religion that could not transform the lives of its immediate followers can not be true, religion that can be transformed by dreams (St Peter’s dream that food of gentiles (pork) and wine is allowed) can not hold key to salvation. The list is very long but i stop here
Good luck, may you find peace in your heart and life
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Brother, you seem to seek a God, who ought to be the one, you desire him to be. I suggest you to look for the truth only to find God whatever he is and accept him, no matter you like Him or not. I have written some article related to this issue. if you can read Urdu you may find answer to your questions here:
http://alsharia.org/2021/sep/quran-par-ijma-dr-irfan-shahzad
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