@Irfan76 sir what would constitute an outright denial? Like if she says that she believes in the ahadith, that it is Kufr but does the same thing out of laziness, so isn’t she technically doing the thing which she is accepting that it’s an act of Kufr.

So would it not be an outright contradiction and denial? Or she would have to say like she doesn’t believe in this ahadith even though she knows it’s true etc, in order to be an outright denial? Can you clarify sir?

@Irfan76 so sir, when you talk about outright denial then it means not accepting prayer to be obligatory by God without any excuse. Or does it mean outright denial in performing that duty, for suppose if someone is not praying and his friend asks “why are you not praying” and he says “although I believe it’s obligatory, but still i won’t pray because I don’t have mood etc” so without giving any excuse he is not praying, would this be outright denial? or if he would have said “I don’t believe the prayer to be obligatory etc” then it would have been an outright denial?

@Irfan76 So sir outright denial has only to do with the belief and not in action?

and sir if this statement was like this

“I know that Allah has ordered to pray namaz, and that prophet has said that not praying namaz is kufr and I accept this is kufr”

but still after accepting the facts stated above. they miss prayers (praying one day missing 3 days etc) without valid excuses and because of very insignificant excuses like laziness and hot weather etc etc. so would such person be deemed a kafir in terms of worldly legality?

because if someone does kufr and doesn’t believe it to be kufr then we don’t legally in this world deem them as kafir. but if they do kufr and says to knowing that this is kufr, so aren’t they legally considered kafir?

@Irfan76 sir can this thing have any specific relation with the directive of establishment of namaz and paying of zakat alongwith accepting faith, in surah tawbah ayat 5?. like because not only accepting of faith, but establishment of prayer and zakat was also made as a criteria, upon meeting all these would the polytheist be considered Muslim etc. so I mean those polytheist were not only required to profess faith but also the establishment of prayer and zakat must be seen in them before they would be left alone and treated as Muslims. so if someone were to use this ayat to prove that not only saying and professing faith (like ” I accept the pillars of faith and I accept performing namaz and zakat, I’ll perform these duties”) but they must be actually doing these 2 things before they are considered Muslim. and if they are not found doing these 2 things (namaz and zakat) then they would be considered Kafir. how would we reply to such explanation?

and secondly sir, in ayat 29 of tawbah, were punishment of ahl e kitab is told. were the people of ahl e kitab also required to do these 2 things alongwith professing faith before they would be exempted from subjugation and jizya? or they were only required to profess faith?

@Irfan76 sir so if a mushrik at that time would have become Muslim but would have said I don’t perform fasting but did these 2 duties. would they have been considered Muslim legally or they would have been treated as non Muslim?

coming to second point, if someone from Ahl e Kitab, wants to get out of this subjugation and save himself from subjugation and he accepted Islam, would the zakat and prayers be conditioned for them too? in order for them to be treated as Muslims and not live under subjugation?

@Irfan76 so sir why was zakat and namaz specifically made condition? and why not just mentioning of acceptance of faith enough? because if denying prayer and zakat made them to be treated like kafir, even if they believe article of faiths. then denying fast and Hajj also made them to be treated like Kafir. so where lies the difference? then why zakat and prayer were mentioned separately, if the same result was produced by denying of doing of Hajj or fast? I can’t understand the difference between them

@Irfan76 okay sir.

sir when the directive was given that if the polytheists “establish prayer” then they must be left. so my question was that what is the establishment here meant as? does it mean that presence of prayer is there, even if it is weak and faulty (like many Muslims nowadays who pray 1 day and don’t pray 2-3 days because of laziness and weak excuses, then again pray for a few days and on and off), if such weak presence of prayer was found , would it suffice the meaning of “establishment of prayer” to an extent that at least they won’t be considered Kafir.

Or is it like “the establishment of prayer” would ONLY happen if there is complete strong presence of prayer, in order for them to be considered Muslim and weakness in it (like not praying due to weak or insufficiently strong reasons) won’t be tolerated for long and they would be amongst those who “don’t establish prayers” and eventually be considered Kafir?

@Irfan76 sir you mean if the polytheists at that time were doing mistakes and kotaahi like Muslims nowadays then they would have been considered Kafir?

@Irfan76 so sir what would be the level known after which the leader of Muslims at that time would have decided that now their kotaahi has amounted to istikbaar and hence kufr and now they are to be punished with death? or they weren’t allowed to do anything until the person himself confessed that he isn’t going to pray at all, even though many irregularities are seen, but still until unequivocally it’s stated or refused to pray at all, only then was the leader allowed to consider them kafir

@Irfan76 sir so both or anyone of these things, if found would be the line?

and sir what is meant by unjustified kotahi? does it mean presenting no excuse, no matter how weak (even if that weak excuse won’t be accepted in eyes of Allah and person would be held accountable, for example laziness)? if someone would have given even the weakest of excuse like laziness, still he would be left alone and not taken action, am I right?

@Irfan76 sir lastly , if someone presented even a weak excuse of laziness like Muslims nowadays. would he be spared or he be termed kafir?

@Irfan76 sir I am a little bit confused , can you please help me.

sir when you said “unjustified kotahi” does it mean someone who didn’t pray and when asked about his action. then he didn’t present any excuse at all.

OR

does “unjustified kotahi” also includes any excuse that is not strong enough to make the person completely sinless. like if someone didn’t pray at one time and when the ruler asked him that why didn’t he pray. so he says I became unconscious for hours and that’s why it got missed. Now this excuse is really a strong excuse that would make that person completely sinless in the eyes of Allah. the level where a person becomes completely sinless, any reason presented that is less than that, where a person becomes sinful would make the person eligible for being a kafir?

I’m just confused as to what did you mean by unjustified kotaahi, for example if a person Nisar is found that he didn’t pray Zuhr and asr prayer, and he is asked about his missing of prayer. he replies that “I did some work so I was feeling fatigued and tired and was feeling very lazy because of it, so that’s why I missed those prayers”. now he didn’t blatantly rejected on praying, neither did he say he didn’t pray without any excuse. he insisted that he didn’t do Kufr but it was mistake of sin that he did and he accepts that this is a disobedience mistake. Now his reason is not so strong enough to make him completely sinless in eyes of Allah (like the example of unconscious person). he infact would have beared some sin on his shoulder too because being despite being tired and fatigues or lazy. he couldn’t have prayed at least the Fardh rakat. so he is a sinner of some degree in eyes of Allah. but he also did not come up without excuse or with open statement of rejection. he presented excuse and he insisted that he did wrong but he didn’t miss prayer in rejection. so would such person would have been termed kafir, if he was in the time of prophet after itmam e hujjah?