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Morality Of Circumcision And Children
The general argument given is that ‘I send my child to school’ ‘I make him wear clothes’ and other things that parents would normally do for their children.
However, isn’t it absurd to compare these things to cutting the live tissue of a newborn? I mean it seems pretty clear cut (forgive the pun) that the difference is very clear.
How is it ok to permanently change the body of another human without their say in the matter?
Religion does not make medical arguments so to argue for medical benefits is void.
When it comes to urine getting stuck in the foreskin this is simply if one is not taught to urinate in a clean manner then clean it. It is really not that big of an issue it seems unless someone is lazy. One can also be lazy when it comes to cleaning themselves when uncircumcised though.
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46 Replies
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Morality Of Circumcision And Children
updated 2 months ago
10 Members
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46
Replies
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One can keep clean without being circumcised
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اور بھی غم ہیں زمانے میں محبت کے سوا
And there are many other issues need more attention in this world except love
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Sorry? 😅
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Little poetry!
🤣
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Lol
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Hmm interesting. I remember these points were raised by Hassan bhai, but Ustaaz gotta give his view on it.
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https://youtu.be/mWT_sPxl1Tg
At around 35 minutes Ghamidi sahab comments on how khatna is mustahhab. I’m just having a hard time understanding who’s going to get the reward for this act? The child didn’t ask for it to be done. And the parents are just doing something to another human it doesn’t make sense that they get the reward. Also as far as I know some scholars say it is fard: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/9412…Also most Jews regard circumcision to be fard so that is perhaps also something to take into account.-
Glad this came out, cleared up the last straw of doubt 👌
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As far as the reward, it will belong to the parents for saving their child from undue difficulty in cleaning when he grows up. The key thing to understand is that when something is proven by sunnah, then it should be carried out if at all possible without worrying about the debate of fard or mustahab. These are rather academic categorizations of injunctions, and ulema can differ in their categorization. This has no impact on whether or not we should take one more seriously than the other.
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That provides some more clarity. Jazak Allah
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Time for me to go offer 2 rakahs of nafil 😂
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Make sure you read long surahs 🤣🤣
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Ahmad, are you suggesting to ask an infant or a child about everything regardless?
So if the infant has sixth toe, we should ask him first before removing it. If there are conjoined children that can be separated now, but not later, we should ask for their permission and what if one doesn’t agree? If a child doesn’t like going to school or learn prayer, we should ask for his permission. Why inject polio vaccine in a child without permission? It is parents responsibility to make decision for the best interests of their children after considering cost vs benefits.
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A sixth toe is a deformity. I don’t think circumcision is.
A polio vaccine saves lives and isn’t cutting off living tissue.
Going to school and learning prayer is not cutting off living tissue.
A child can forget prayer later in life but he can’t change an irreversible procedure
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Ghamidi app gotta include an upvote button so we can appreciate the comments here…
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Ahmad, I thought you said not counting benefits. So then circumcision has proven benefits. And what is with cutting live tissue. Why cut umbilical cord either.
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I think comparing it with cutting the umbilical chord is frankly absurd. The umbilical chord as far as I’m aware falls off anyway. The umbilical chord is not a part of the anatomy that humans usually have as they grow up/
Sure there are benefits of circumcision. But how can you permanently change someone’s body without their consent? Unless there’s some life death situation. Perhaps one could say that this sunnah is of that level. But if it’s just mustahhab which I realise is just a term but still…
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I think the argument you stated it valid as the mother has to clean the private parts of the child. It’s also better for the child in the future as it’s easier to clean. Sure the child can be taught to clean it properly with a foreskin but then the same argument could be used for why do we have to remove pubic hair as one can keep it clean without removing it.
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Pubic hair is not live tissue that cannot be regrown
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This point was made in relation as to why sharia wants us to circumcise if a child could be taught to clean properly with a foreskin. The pubic hair can grow but we are required to remove them. A muslim can’t choose to grow them in Islam even if he can keep them clean so the same would apply on foreskin.
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A person can remove his own pubic hair when he reaches puberty. He can’t do the same with his foreskin
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Also if the mother doesn’t want to clean the child’s body then why is she having a child in the first place?
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I didn’t get what harm is caused to the child from circumcision and what is the big issue with live tissue and what is a concern with removing extra skin. Is the child disfigured in any way?
So there is no harm and only benefit.
Whatever good parents decide for the benefit of their child is appropriate. If the child has a issue, then he should have chosen to be born to a nonMuslim family and preserve his precious skin. The parents did not ask for such a unappreciative child to be born to them.
If the child had such an issue, he should have not been dependent on parents and the first day of birth, go live and survive on your own and make your own decisions.
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Well you are calling it ‘extra skin’ which many people would disagree with.
May people would actually say that you are disfiguring the child.
The child can’t choose to be born to Muslim or non Muslim parents…
It is the parents job to look after the child and provide for him. The parents should be able to decide within reason to do some beneficial things for example vaccines etc. But permanently changing the body seems to be a bit too far.
When it comes to harms and benefits a child just has to be taught how to clean himself. He can be taught to use water and urinate in a clean manner. Many would also argue about the loss of sensitivity though the research is apparently conflicting
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She’s still cleaning it when foreskin is removed. I don’t understand why you’re making it such a big issue
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Exactly. She is still cleaning it. So to say oh he has to be circumcised because the mother has to clean the child doesn’t seem like a good point
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Nor does the point that she can’t have it removed as she didn’t get consent from the child
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Ok so she has to cut the nails of the child so can she just complete cut off the whole nail? She has to clean his hair so can she laser his hair off so it doesn’t grow? She has to clean is feet so should she just cut them off?
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If fingers had extra skin on them then I would say yes she can have that extra skin removed that might cause bacterial infections and might be hard to clean. Same goes for other things. Should she cut off the feet? No. She’s not cutting off the entire penis is she?
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I don’t get why it’s being called extra skin. What is extra about it?
Bacterial infections can occur in any part of the body. As I said if basic hygiene is taught this shouldn’t be a problem.
The point is not how much of the penis is being cut off. The point is it’s an irreversible change that is being done without the consent of the patient.
It’s a simple principle- don’t make irreversible changes to other people’s bodies without their consent. Is that really so hard to understand?
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I think it’s pretty clear why it’s called extra skin. It covers the head of the penis and has no purpose. Many germs can grow there and they have the best conditions(no air, urine drops) to grow. If a guy really loves foreskin he could have a foreskin restoration. The purpose of Islam is purification and I find no trouble if parents do something like circumcision to make their baby’s body more clean. It could be assumed that he would be a Muslim in the future and have no problem with it. They teach him how to pray. Would you question why they taught him that when he didn’t even choose Islam from his free will?
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The skin doesn’t just stay in the head…
It can be very easily cleaned especially given western standards of hygiene.
Teaching a child to pray is not the same as cutting off a part of their anatomy. That is quite clear.
The thing is I may or may not agree that circumcision is beneficial or hygienic or whatever. That’s not the main issue.
The main issue is what I have stated above. Making an irreversible change to the body of a human without their permission.
I’m not going to draw analogies because every situation is different. Attempts to compare it to an umbilical chord or pubic hair are in my opinion not very strong.
However if we, for a second, step back from the religious perspective snd look at it from a neutral lens- it think it’s quite basic morality that you shouldn’t permanently change someone’s body.
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I guess it is a valid argument if the guy doesn’t want it. However I would say maybe it is the obligation on the parents that they teach their kids that Islam requires it from them to be clean and that includes removing the foreskin.
Someone could even argue that if God has given the warrant to do it, the child’s consent doesn’t matter(not my take on it but could be a possible argument).
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In the Torah, God commands Abraham to undergo circumcision at age 99, as part of a covenant between Him and generations of Jews to come. “This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations” (Genesis 17:10-12).
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Yes if this is true then circumcision should be fard
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It is proven by ijma
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I am still having hard time believing that Allah made men with foreskin in all his wisdom and then expects it to be cut off, some times incorrectly by the way. I don’t believe in getting ears pierced on my daughters or circumcising a male child just because “lots of folks do it” – I want to know through Quran where this topic has been brought up.
Its the child’s right when they grow to do it – he is not a Muslim just because he was born to Muslim parents (that’s the most absurd thing).
I can’t think of one other non reversible act by parents in Islam. Please share such other acts so I can learn.
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Well for the first paragraph it’s simple: it’s a test: why did God give people eg sexual desire before they get married and expect them to keep it tame? Same can be said for hunger and thirst etc
Secondly, not every hukm of the religion is in the Quran. We learnt to pray, do hajj, give zakah and celebrate eid all from the sunnah which is recorded as the living tradition.
As for the right of the child- if the child developed a bacterial infection then the skin would be cut off. What I’m trying to get at is that if there were an important enough problem, the skin would be cut off by the parent without asking the child.
So when this is a ruling in our religion as a part of the sunnah, it is very important, so we will not ask the child and go ahead and carry on with our religion.
In Islam we teach our children to pray. This is not irreversible but it definitely isn’t also freedom of action and thought.
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Yes all those things you mention are referenced in Quran like Salah, Hajj, Ramadan – the ‘what’ is laid well or hinted well the ‘how’ you learn through Sunnah.
Well if we do something for health reasons it’s different and out of scope of religion.
It one does a act to get blessings of Allah it has to be proven beyond doubt being part of religion and indoctrinated. Which Islamic texts other than desert tribe tradition can support this notion, please share.
Also drive to reproduce, hunger and thirst are all primordial instincts no different then other animals.
Key point here is why are we assuming our kids want to be Muslims – forcing something on to them, teaching them and inspiring them is one thing but having the arrogance that they are Muslim goes well beyond the scope.
Allah knows best why he created a male child’s body in a certain way. According to the central idea of his creation in Quran, nothing is wasted or an accident.
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We have pubic hair that we have to cut off in our religion. The argument of the creation being wasted I think is wrong because this life is a test. So a part of the body can be part of the test.
We believe that Islam is correct and it teaches us how to make it so our child can leave a pure, clean life. As we have already discussed if the child got an infection then the skin would have to be cut off. So if the danger is large enough we can undergo the surgery without their consent- parents have at least this much authority.
So in the same way, if circumcision is part of the religion, it is part of a life and death issue since it is shariah. I hope the analogy is clear
Circumcision is part of the sunnah. If you want references maybe @irfan76 can provide them. If you are asking for references you should also ask where salah is recorded or hajj or umrah.
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Hair and live skin can not be compared – how to keep hair on face, head, arm pits and private parts is something you do as an adult all knowing Muslim .
Circumcision is just a tribal thing – I bet it was considered a good thing in the desert culture – but how does that make it religious Sunnah – Allah in Quran that he perfected man before giving it Nafs/self. The reason to cut it for clearing is not correct / wash it like many other folds in the skin – skin folds and wrinkles every where – don’t justify why it’s there prove where this is part of deen?
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I checked and it turns out circumcision reference exists in Torah for sure – my issue how do you belive one thing from Torah while saying Torah was corrupted – who and how is that decided?
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Circumcision is not ordained by Allah. It is a Jewish practice that permeated into early Islamic sources among loads of other fake content, that is all over Sunnah-based sectarian Islam now.
The pet argument of Sunnah followers, is basically just to blindly follow whatever falls under Sunnah, regardless of whether it conforms to Quran and whether it makes sense or not. Since Ghamidi sahab is a Sunnah follower, all his disciples also blindly follow everything that he says is a Sunnah.
Circumcision is not just not ordained by Allah , but is an act taught and promoted by Devil (Iblees):
4:119 “I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to (forbid the eating of certain meats by) marking the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD.” Anyone who accepts the devil as a lord, instead of GOD, has incurred a profound loss.,
Hadith books, including Bukhari, contain numerous hadiths promoting circumcision including female circumcision, which is a torturous mutilation. However, hadith fabricators somehow forgot to fabricate hadiths about the circumcision of prominent figures during the time of Prophet Muhammed. More interestingly, since the practice of circumcision was adopted centuries later, they missed the opportunity to attribute this practice to Prophet himself. Sunni scholars, therefore, came up with another so-called miracle: Prophet was born circumcised. This would answer those who wondered about the absence of such an “important” record in the books of hadith and sunna.
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“Circumcision is not just not ordained by Allah , but is an act taught and promoted by Devil (Iblees)”
Now this is stretching too far.
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It only appears stretched if we view it with the lens of fabricated man-made teachings and if we ignore the verses of Quran.
Whereas Quran is clear that the natural human body formed by God is in the best possible physical design:
“He designed you, and has perfected your design (40:64)”
No mutation has been warranted by God on a naturally created body. Any tampering with this design, on the pretext of a so-called ritual, violates this clear verse of Quran. And the matter becomes even clearer when God informs us about the ill-intentions of Devil, that he would try to force people to distort and mutate God’s creation (4:119).
When you connect the dots, and get rid of the sectarian teachings and the lies attributed to Prophet by human devils, it doesn’t remain stretched at all.
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