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  • Morality Of Circumcision And Children

     Ahmad Shoaib updated 4 days, 13 hours ago 9 Members · 42 Posts
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 9, 2021 at 7:07 pm

    The general argument given is that ‘I send my child to school’ ‘I make him wear clothes’ and other things that parents would normally do for their children.

    However, isn’t it absurd to compare these things to cutting the live tissue of a newborn? I mean it seems pretty clear cut (forgive the pun) that the difference is very clear.

    How is it ok to permanently change the body of another human without their say in the matter?

    Religion does not make medical arguments so to argue for medical benefits is void.

    When it comes to urine getting stuck in the foreskin this is simply if one is not taught to urinate in a clean manner then clean it. It is really not that big of an issue it seems unless someone is lazy. One can also be lazy when it comes to cleaning themselves when uncircumcised though.

  • Munnoo Khan

    Member April 9, 2021 at 8:37 pm
    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 9, 2021 at 8:46 pm

      One can keep clean without being circumcised

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 9, 2021 at 8:47 pm

      اور بھی غم ہیں زمانے میں محبت کے سوا

      And there are many other issues need more attention in this world except love

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 9, 2021 at 8:47 pm

      Sorry? 😅

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 9, 2021 at 9:02 pm

      Little poetry!

      🤣

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 9, 2021 at 9:03 pm

      Lol

  • majid latif awan

    Member April 9, 2021 at 11:23 pm

    Hmm interesting. I remember these points were raised by Hassan bhai, but Ustaaz gotta give his view on it.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 19, 2021 at 4:34 pm

    https://youtu.be/mWT_sPxl1Tg
    At around 35 minutes Ghamidi sahab comments on how khatna is mustahhab. I’m just having a hard time understanding who’s going to get the reward for this act? The child didn’t ask for it to be done. And the parents are just doing something to another human it doesn’t make sense that they get the reward. Also as far as I know some scholars say it is fard: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/9412…Also most Jews regard circumcision to be fard so that is perhaps also something to take into account.

    • majid latif awan

      Member April 20, 2021 at 1:50 pm

      Glad this came out, cleared up the last straw of doubt 👌

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 19, 2021 at 4:47 pm

    As far as the reward, it will belong to the parents for saving their child from undue difficulty in cleaning when he grows up. The key thing to understand is that when something is proven by sunnah, then it should be carried out if at all possible without worrying about the debate of fard or mustahab. These are rather academic categorizations of injunctions, and ulema can differ in their categorization. This has no impact on whether or not we should take one more seriously than the other.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 19, 2021 at 4:48 pm

      That provides some more clarity. Jazak Allah

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator April 19, 2021 at 4:50 pm

      Time for me to go offer 2 rakahs of nafil 😂

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 19, 2021 at 4:51 pm

      Make sure you read long surahs 🤣🤣

  • Nadeem Minhas

    Member April 20, 2021 at 12:50 pm

    Ahmad, are you suggesting to ask an infant or a child about everything regardless?

    So if the infant has sixth toe, we should ask him first before removing it. If there are conjoined children that can be separated now, but not later, we should ask for their permission and what if one doesn’t agree? If a child doesn’t like going to school or learn prayer, we should ask for his permission. Why inject polio vaccine in a child without permission? It is parents responsibility to make decision for the best interests of their children after considering cost vs benefits.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 1:47 pm

      A sixth toe is a deformity. I don’t think circumcision is.

      A polio vaccine saves lives and isn’t cutting off living tissue.

      Going to school and learning prayer is not cutting off living tissue.

      A child can forget prayer later in life but he can’t change an irreversible procedure

    • majid latif awan

      Member April 20, 2021 at 1:49 pm

      Ghamidi app gotta include an upvote button so we can appreciate the comments here…

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member April 20, 2021 at 5:44 pm

      Ahmad, I thought you said not counting benefits. So then circumcision has proven benefits. And what is with cutting live tissue. Why cut umbilical cord either.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 5:46 pm

      I think comparing it with cutting the umbilical chord is frankly absurd. The umbilical chord as far as I’m aware falls off anyway. The umbilical chord is not a part of the anatomy that humans usually have as they grow up/

      Sure there are benefits of circumcision. But how can you permanently change someone’s body without their consent? Unless there’s some life death situation. Perhaps one could say that this sunnah is of that level. But if it’s just mustahhab which I realise is just a term but still…

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 7:41 pm

      I think the argument you stated it valid as the mother has to clean the private parts of the child. It’s also better for the child in the future as it’s easier to clean. Sure the child can be taught to clean it properly with a foreskin but then the same argument could be used for why do we have to remove pubic hair as one can keep it clean without removing it.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 7:41 pm

      Pubic hair is not live tissue that cannot be regrown

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:00 pm

      This point was made in relation as to why sharia wants us to circumcise if a child could be taught to clean properly with a foreskin. The pubic hair can grow but we are required to remove them. A muslim can’t choose to grow them in Islam even if he can keep them clean so the same would apply on foreskin.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 11:02 pm

      A person can remove his own pubic hair when he reaches puberty. He can’t do the same with his foreskin

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 7:42 pm

      Also if the mother doesn’t want to clean the child’s body then why is she having a child in the first place?

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member April 20, 2021 at 9:02 pm

      I didn’t get what harm is caused to the child from circumcision and what is the big issue with live tissue and what is a concern with removing extra skin. Is the child disfigured in any way?

      So there is no harm and only benefit.

      Whatever good parents decide for the benefit of their child is appropriate. If the child has a issue, then he should have chosen to be born to a nonMuslim family and preserve his precious skin. The parents did not ask for such a unappreciative child to be born to them.

      If the child had such an issue, he should have not been dependent on parents and the first day of birth, go live and survive on your own and make your own decisions.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 9:05 pm

      Well you are calling it ‘extra skin’ which many people would disagree with.

      May people would actually say that you are disfiguring the child.

      The child can’t choose to be born to Muslim or non Muslim parents…

      It is the parents job to look after the child and provide for him. The parents should be able to decide within reason to do some beneficial things for example vaccines etc. But permanently changing the body seems to be a bit too far.

      When it comes to harms and benefits a child just has to be taught how to clean himself. He can be taught to use water and urinate in a clean manner. Many would also argue about the loss of sensitivity though the research is apparently conflicting

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:04 pm

      She’s still cleaning it when foreskin is removed. I don’t understand why you’re making it such a big issue

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 11:05 pm

      Exactly. She is still cleaning it. So to say oh he has to be circumcised because the mother has to clean the child doesn’t seem like a good point

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:06 pm

      Nor does the point that she can’t have it removed as she didn’t get consent from the child

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 11:07 pm

      Ok so she has to cut the nails of the child so can she just complete cut off the whole nail? She has to clean his hair so can she laser his hair off so it doesn’t grow? She has to clean is feet so should she just cut them off?

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:13 pm

      If fingers had extra skin on them then I would say yes she can have that extra skin removed that might cause bacterial infections and might be hard to clean. Same goes for other things. Should she cut off the feet? No. She’s not cutting off the entire penis is she?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 11:15 pm

      I don’t get why it’s being called extra skin. What is extra about it?

      Bacterial infections can occur in any part of the body. As I said if basic hygiene is taught this shouldn’t be a problem.

      The point is not how much of the penis is being cut off. The point is it’s an irreversible change that is being done without the consent of the patient.

      It’s a simple principle- don’t make irreversible changes to other people’s bodies without their consent. Is that really so hard to understand?

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:28 pm

      I think it’s pretty clear why it’s called extra skin. It covers the head of the penis and has no purpose. Many germs can grow there and they have the best conditions(no air, urine drops) to grow. If a guy really loves foreskin he could have a foreskin restoration. The purpose of Islam is purification and I find no trouble if parents do something like circumcision to make their baby’s body more clean. It could be assumed that he would be a Muslim in the future and have no problem with it. They teach him how to pray. Would you question why they taught him that when he didn’t even choose Islam from his free will?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 20, 2021 at 11:31 pm

      The skin doesn’t just stay in the head…

      It can be very easily cleaned especially given western standards of hygiene.

      Teaching a child to pray is not the same as cutting off a part of their anatomy. That is quite clear.

      The thing is I may or may not agree that circumcision is beneficial or hygienic or whatever. That’s not the main issue.

      The main issue is what I have stated above. Making an irreversible change to the body of a human without their permission.

      I’m not going to draw analogies because every situation is different. Attempts to compare it to an umbilical chord or pubic hair are in my opinion not very strong.

      However if we, for a second, step back from the religious perspective snd look at it from a neutral lens- it think it’s quite basic morality that you shouldn’t permanently change someone’s body.

    • Faizan Ahmed

      Member April 20, 2021 at 11:53 pm

      I guess it is a valid argument if the guy doesn’t want it. However I would say maybe it is the obligation on the parents that they teach their kids that Islam requires it from them to be clean and that includes removing the foreskin.

      Someone could even argue that if God has given the warrant to do it, the child’s consent doesn’t matter(not my take on it but could be a possible argument).

  • Fahim Ahmed

    Member April 21, 2021 at 1:22 am

    In the Torah, God commands Abraham to undergo circumcision at age 99, as part of a covenant between Him and generations of Jews to come. “This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and thy descendants after thee, every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised on the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations” (Genesis 17:10-12).

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 21, 2021 at 2:17 am

      Yes if this is true then circumcision should be fard

  • Ammar Raja Bhoj

    Member April 27, 2021 at 5:48 am

    It is proven by ijma

  • Rai Umair

    Member May 3, 2021 at 11:00 pm

    I am still having hard time believing that Allah made men with foreskin in all his wisdom and then expects it to be cut off, some times incorrectly by the way. I don’t believe in getting ears pierced on my daughters or circumcising a male child just because “lots of folks do it” – I want to know through Quran where this topic has been brought up.

    Its the child’s right when they grow to do it – he is not a Muslim just because he was born to Muslim parents (that’s the most absurd thing).

    I can’t think of one other non reversible act by parents in Islam. Please share such other acts so I can learn.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor May 4, 2021 at 2:19 am

      Well for the first paragraph it’s simple: it’s a test: why did God give people eg sexual desire before they get married and expect them to keep it tame? Same can be said for hunger and thirst etc

      Secondly, not every hukm of the religion is in the Quran. We learnt to pray, do hajj, give zakah and celebrate eid all from the sunnah which is recorded as the living tradition.

      As for the right of the child- if the child developed a bacterial infection then the skin would be cut off. What I’m trying to get at is that if there were an important enough problem, the skin would be cut off by the parent without asking the child.

      So when this is a ruling in our religion as a part of the sunnah, it is very important, so we will not ask the child and go ahead and carry on with our religion.

      In Islam we teach our children to pray. This is not irreversible but it definitely isn’t also freedom of action and thought.

  • Rai Umair

    Member May 5, 2021 at 4:37 am

    Yes all those things you mention are referenced in Quran like Salah, Hajj, Ramadan – the ‘what’ is laid well or hinted well the ‘how’ you learn through Sunnah.

    Well if we do something for health reasons it’s different and out of scope of religion.

    It one does a act to get blessings of Allah it has to be proven beyond doubt being part of religion and indoctrinated. Which Islamic texts other than desert tribe tradition can support this notion, please share.

    Also drive to reproduce, hunger and thirst are all primordial instincts no different then other animals.

    Key point here is why are we assuming our kids want to be Muslims – forcing something on to them, teaching them and inspiring them is one thing but having the arrogance that they are Muslim goes well beyond the scope.

    Allah knows best why he created a male child’s body in a certain way. According to the central idea of his creation in Quran, nothing is wasted or an accident.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor May 5, 2021 at 6:28 am

      We have pubic hair that we have to cut off in our religion. The argument of the creation being wasted I think is wrong because this life is a test. So a part of the body can be part of the test.

      We believe that Islam is correct and it teaches us how to make it so our child can leave a pure, clean life. As we have already discussed if the child got an infection then the skin would have to be cut off. So if the danger is large enough we can undergo the surgery without their consent- parents have at least this much authority.

      So in the same way, if circumcision is part of the religion, it is part of a life and death issue since it is shariah. I hope the analogy is clear

      Circumcision is part of the sunnah. If you want references maybe @irfan76 can provide them. If you are asking for references you should also ask where salah is recorded or hajj or umrah.

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