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  • Worker Cooperatives Proposed By Some Marxists And Quran 43:32

    Shaharyar Sabeeh updated 2 weeks, 3 days ago 2 Members · 6 Replies
  • Shaharyar Sabeeh

    Member November 15, 2024 at 1:42 pm

    …… because this verse implies that wealth circulation is a natural process and divided by Allah swt himself.

  • Umer

    Moderator November 18, 2024 at 3:45 am

    Quran 43:32 does not provide any directive, rather it provides a great insight for a Muslim regarding diversity of skills and resources among humans and the reason for this diversity. It does serve as a criticism on Marxism, but the matter of economy and how to run it is ultimately left to the decision of human beings and to their trial and error. No obligation was imposed in this regard.

    The only injunction given to a Muslim Society in this context is the Formation Of A Public Sector.

    For details, please see:

    Discussion 31649

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member November 18, 2024 at 4:26 am

      Thank you Umer sahab!

      Just to be clear, the Marxist definition of class is the group of people with a certain defined relationship to the surplus being produced by a given mode of production. For example, in capitalism, the capitalist class appropriates the surplus value produced in a factory, where as the working class gets a portion of it in form of wages.

      So in Marxist terms, the industrial workers, service workers, logistics, transport, and agricultural workers, gig economy and precarious workers, administrative and clerical workers, etc. are not different classes. They’re different sections of same classes.

      We know as per the findings and research of anthropologists and economic historians that hunter gatherer societies were egalitarian and shared resources based on mutual cooperation. And very importantly, they constitute about 95% of human history.

      Then came the neolithic revolution i.e the agricultural revolution, which ushered in the age of classes in human societies. Later came in feudalism, slavery, asiatic mode of production, and now capitalism. All these form the rest 5% and we’re here now.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member November 18, 2024 at 4:41 am

      Marxists are not of the idea of making and bringing everyone to a same level. That can never happen. Everyone will perform different work based on their abilities and interests, hence the phrase, “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”.

      I have also seen a misconception among people where they confuse hierarchy with class. Class is what I have defined above, whereas hierarchy is something that has always existed based on abilities and capabilities. Someone will be above an other even in higher communism.

      The key question is who controls and makes decision about the surplus value.

      Maybe the verse is talking about the given conditions of that particular age and phase of humanity in which it was revealed i.e the stage in the cycle of history at which it was revealed.

      And hence maybe it doesn’t negate the future impossibility of a classless society i.e a society in which those who produce surplus make direct decisions about what to do with it?

      Second question, given the fact about human history of which most is classless, should we continue to consider the verse as a critique of Marxism?


    • Umer

      Moderator November 21, 2024 at 12:25 am

      Quran 43:31-32 were in response to the specific objection raised by the polytheists of the Quresh. The Quranic statement however, the way it is structured and the rationale underneath, makes is generic in nature. It is nothing but a mere extension of the God’s Scheme of Tests and Trials instituted in this world. Diversity in resources, just like skills and other innate abilities/disabilities, form an integral part of this scheme, which creates a testing environment for the individuals and it also serves the purpose of getting work done in this world.

      Whether human beings establish capitalist society, marxist society or opt for other hybrid economic models, this is not the concern of Islam. There is a very limited sphere where Sharia on economic matters has been given by Quran (Please see: Discussion 31640). One thing which can be said for sure in the light of this Quranic verse is that complete eliminiation of classes is impossible.

      The claim regarding hunter gatherers and complete elimination of classes need to be studied in more detail by me, and whether or not the evidence is exhaustive and conclusive enough to easily negate the socio-economic facts we see today and been seeing for the past many centuries (as evidenced by Quran as well).

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member November 21, 2024 at 11:16 am

      Jazak Allah.

      Dr. Taimur Rehman (who also recently met Ghamidi Saheb) has a lot of great lectures from Marxist perspective. I’d recommend to go through these:

      https://youtu.be/DAgAXPma_Qk?si=nsjQ7mAnTySwqlAi

      https://youtu.be/TssERFoU7uo?si=0kI9Bfzr5-g_dysx

      https://youtu.be/lMM7uiQMdOU?si=zyg3eh30UBP11EeG

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