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  • Prohibition Of Taking Jews And Christians As Friends

    Posted by Sameer Bhagwat on July 26, 2020 at 12:57 am

    Hi,

    The verse 5:51 uses the word “awliya” which is translated by many reputed Arabic-English Qur’an translators as “friends” . I understand this word means guardian/protector/allies etc. Does it mean that these translations are conveying wrong message of Allah ? Please explain the real meaning of the verse and also why such differences in translations exist. Any English reader of Qur’an will get this meaning translated by following translators :

    Pickthall: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

    Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    Shakir: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    Mohsin Khan: O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya’ to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya’, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

    Faisal Haroon replied 3 years, 6 months ago 5 Members · 59 Replies
  • 59 Replies
  • Prohibition Of Taking Jews And Christians As Friends

    Faisal Haroon updated 3 years, 6 months ago 5 Members · 59 Replies
  • $ohail T@hir

    Moderator July 26, 2020 at 8:11 am
  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 26, 2020 at 12:08 pm

    How can then marriage with the same Jews and Christian women be allowed if they also intentionally denied the truth ?

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 26, 2020 at 12:11 pm

    The video says that this verse doesn’t apply anymore .. so do we assume most of these verses even though they say “o ye who believe” are only applicable for the time of Prophet and his direct addressees ? If some Muslim reads them now, does it mean he shouldn’t follow these verses ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 26, 2020 at 1:05 pm

      This is an example of ال takhsis in the Arabic language- some o you who believe refers to specific people and some refers to all believers. In some places it is even used to refer to munafiqun or Christians. To understand this you must u derstand the direct addressees of the Quran

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 26, 2020 at 12:17 pm

    I am reading Tafsir of Ibn Kathir for the verse 5:51 and he says:

    The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends

    Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,

    (And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ashari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with Umar's demand.Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, “This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham” Abu Musa said, He cannot.''Umar said, “Is he not pure” Abu Musa said, “No, but he is Christian.” Abu Musa said, “So Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying,Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).’ He then recited,

    يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ

    (O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends…)” Then he reported that Abdullah binUtbah said, “Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.”

    • $ohail T@hir

      Moderator July 26, 2020 at 2:03 pm

      Ibn Kathir’s usool-e-tafsir is different

      for details Discussion 1088

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 26, 2020 at 2:05 pm

      Hmm, should I understand that Ghamidi saab doesn’t consider Ibn Kathir’s tafsir as valid source of correct interpretation of Qur’an verses ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 26, 2020 at 2:08 pm

      Consider the usool and not the maker of them

    • $ohail T@hir

      Moderator July 26, 2020 at 2:08 pm

      Different usool-e-tafseer, different outcome

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 26, 2020 at 11:32 pm

    Does it mean that Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of 5:51 is wrong ?

    I understand he may have used a different usool to interpret Qur’an, but I am more interested in the right and wrong interpretation of the message, not the usool .

    Whatever usool/principle one uses, if he comes up with an interpretation which is wrong, we can call his understanding of Qur’an as wrong.

    What about the example of Umar he gave in his explanation, where Umar fired a Christian scribe based on this ayah ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 26, 2020 at 11:36 pm

      Itmam e hujjat- you couldn’t take those Christians as friends and they were supposed to live dominated over. Also ibn kathir doesn’t always take context into accoumt

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 26, 2020 at 11:51 pm

      So, are you saying that Ibn Kathir’s tafsir of 5:51 is wrong ?

      When Umar fired a Christian scribe and asked him to be thrown out of Arabia, does it also go with the same context ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 7:34 am

      Yes if he took as an eternal commandment

      I would think so

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 8:13 am

      So, Umar also did wrong ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 8:14 am

      No because Arabia had become a place where no non Muslim can stay for permanent residence

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 8:25 am

      But Umar used this Ayah to throw him out.. if he was a Christian, can you throw him out of his workplace and home in Arabia, because Prophet said it ? Is it justice ? Also, why use this ayah to justify it ?

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 27, 2020 at 11:28 am

    It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira who said:

    We were (sitting) in the mosque when the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came to us and said: (Let us) go to the Jews. We went out with him until we came to them. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) stood up and called out to them (saying): O ye assembly of Jews, accept Islam (and) you will be safe. They said: Abu’l-Qasim, you have communicated (God’s Message to us). The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I want this (ie you should admit that God’s Message has been communicated to you), accept Islam and you would be safe. They said: Abu’l-Qisim, you have communicated (Allah’s Message). The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: I want this … – He said to them (the same words) the third time (and on getting the same reply) he added: You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle,

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 27, 2020 at 11:30 am

    It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:

    I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 11:59 am

      The word al ard doesn’t always refer to the whole earth in context. I see no problem with these Hadith

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:05 pm

      You don’t see any problem in expelling Jews and Christians from their homes in Arabia ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:06 pm

      It is according to God’s law that this land has been made specific to his monotheism which in its pure form is only present in Islam. People can come and visit but no permanence

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:09 pm

      But those Jews and Christians were living there already .. so God decided to throw them out ? If some other messenger claims the similar thing, and throws muslims out, will you call his action just ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:12 pm

      If he performs itmam e hujjat yes

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:12 pm

      And who will confirm if he performed the completion of proof ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:16 pm

      If it is a true messenger then God

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:16 pm

      And what will be the sign of it ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:19 pm

      Some sort of divine message- a miracle or a book

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:20 pm

      What miracle did Muhammad perform ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:21 pm

      The Quran itself is a miracle and also eg the splitting of the moon

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:24 pm

      Splitting of moon is not done by Muhammad. There is no record of it, except claim by Muslims only.

      Qur’an itself is a miracle ?? Says who ? Muslims only.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:25 pm

      The Quran when read with a clear mind using intellect and reason there is no way to deny its divinity. And it talks about the moon splitting. Therefore the moon was split in accordance to the true Quran

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:29 pm

      Then don’t mention moon split, before proving Qur’an’s divinity. You are saying moon split was a miracle, and hence Qur’an is true.. and when I ask how do you know moon split happened, you say Qur’an mentioned it.. circular reasoning spotted.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:30 pm

      I mean for the people of the time both were Miracles. But for us to prove that the miracle happened we use the Quran

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:35 pm

      Which people ? As you shown in the video by SS, there were only 3 people who witnessed it.. and NONE of them were non-Muslims .. clear lie.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 27, 2020 at 12:37 pm

      It seems so many Muslim scholars read Qur’an with closed mind that’s why they come up with wrong interpretation of it.. only Ghamidi saab reads it with open mind and intellect.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 27, 2020 at 11:34 pm

    Qur’an says that marrying Jews and Christian women is permitted. Now some scholars call them polytheistic.

    Narrated Nafi’: Whenever Ibn ‘Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: “Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah’s slaves.”

    If some Muslim had married a Jewish or Christian woman in Arabian peninsula, and is living happily with her, but Prophet ordered them to be thrown out, does it mean he has to divorce his wife?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 28, 2020 at 10:12 am

      I think brother @faisalharoon is more well-verses in history than i

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 28, 2020 at 10:14 am

      I think early scholars interpreted the verse 2:221 as applicable for all polytheists, not specific to Pagans of Arabia only, as Ibn Umar’s comment mentions.

      Anyway, my question is on the second part.

      If some Muslim had married a Jewish or Christian woman in Arabian peninsula, and is living happily with her, but Prophet ordered them to be thrown out, does it mean he has to divorce his wife?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 28, 2020 at 1:07 pm

      While I’m not aware of any such incident in the history, but in principle when God command is clear, a Muslim’s job is to submit.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 28, 2020 at 1:09 pm

      So, he should divorce his Jewish/Christian wife? Is this what Prophet ordered ?

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 28, 2020 at 11:45 pm

    The exact hadith is in Sahih Muslim:

    It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:

    I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

    Now, how does it affect the Jewish and Christian wives of the Muslims, is something Prophet did not think properly about.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 1, 2020 at 4:23 pm

    The verse 5:51 refers only to those Christians and Jews who showed clearly enmity towards the Prophet saw and tried to harm him. It does not apply to all Christians and Jews. In the world there are good people and bad people and this includes Muslims too. So it applies to specific Christians and Jews.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 1, 2020 at 11:45 pm

      If it applies only to those who harmed Prophet, the wording should have been done accordingly. The words of the verse say something else.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:20 am

      This is why we read verses with context and with the overall theme of the surah.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:31 am

      We read tafsir and that tafsir also says it similarly .. the command is for all jews and all christians, not only for those who harmed Prophet.. unless you want to say that Prophet/Allah was a bad communicator..

      The way Umar understood it, is the same way Ibn Kathir understood it.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:33 am

      I don’t see how Umar رضي الله عنه understood it wrong. Ibn kathir is not infallible. Many many many people don’t understand Shakespeare- was he also a bad writer /communicator?

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:40 am

      If Shakespeare claims to be “clear explanation of all things” and people are still confused what he wrote, then yes he was a bad communicator.. but he didn’t say that, then it means there is required deep poetic knowledge to understand him and it is not for the masses to understand. Shakespeare is not God.

      As per Umar :

      Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ashari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with Umar’s demand.Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, “This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham” Abu Musa said, He cannot.”Umar said, “Is he not pure” Abu Musa said, “No, but he is Christian.” Abu Musa said, “So Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying,Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).’ He then recited,

      يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ

      (O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends…)” Then he reported that Abdullah binUtbah said, “Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.”

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:42 am

      Regardless this is not an example of that. You took one verse out of context.

      I’m not aware of the specifics maybe @faisalharoon can explain but I don’t know if there’s anything wrong with this.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:46 am

      I didn’t take the verse out of context.. you can blame Umar for it, because Umar quoted the same verse to throw out his Christian scribe..

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 12:48 am

      Ok hopefully @faisalharoon can explain it

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor August 2, 2020 at 1:09 am

    The exact hadith is in Sahih Muslim:

    It has been narrated by ‘Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say:

    I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

    This hadith does NOT mention expel only specific Jews/Christians who harmed the Prophet.. but throw out all of those who are non-Muslims.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 2, 2020 at 7:50 am

    Please understand this hadees is time specific at the time Prophet saw was delivering his message in Arabia. This hadees is not meant for our times. This is the mistake some of our Muslims do and take the hadees out of context and start treating non Muslims as Kafirs. The rise of militancy is because of this.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 7:52 am

      Can current Jews and Christians enter and reside in Arabian peninsula ? You earlier said it was only applicable to those who harmed the Prophet.. now you are changing the statement to say that it is for those at the time of the Prophet. Please decide your view .

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 2, 2020 at 8:02 am

    When I replied about certain Christians and Jews, I was talking in terms of punishment for them. I did not talk about their residing permanently in Arabia. There are administrative measures taken by the Saudi Goverment which prevents the non Muslims from entering Mecca and the surrounding areas. Islam has not prevented non Muslims entering Haram. It would be good for non Muslims to enter and learn about Islam. We enter churches and learn a lot. Non Muslims are working in the Arabian peninsula. Every goverment makes their own rules and regulations.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor August 2, 2020 at 8:22 am

    The verse and hadith are quite clear (even if applicable to only at the time of Prophet) to not have friendship with ANY Jew/Christians.

    The hadith where Umar threw out his Christian scribe from Arabia shows that it is applicable to general public.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 2, 2020 at 8:51 am

    I want to again emphasize this was time specific. It applied at the time God was sending his Prophets to the world. Our last Final Prophet was Prophet saw and there are no more prophets coming. So these laws do not apply today. Politics plays a large part today

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 2, 2020 at 9:20 am

      So, what is the point of throwing Jews/Christians from Arabia even at the time of Prophet ? After Prophet died and Umar was the Caliph, he completed the job by throwing out Christian scribe. You said it was done to only those who opposed Prophet..

      “Sameer the Prophet saw did not say to throw out all the Christians and Jews. This applies only to those Christians and Jews who were Mushrik and opposed the Prophet saw even when the message of the Qur’an was clearly conveyed to them and they still would not accept him”

      Which Jew and Christian was supposed to be left in Arabia ?

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 2, 2020 at 10:47 am

    Those who accepted Prophet SAW as the last prophet and their books had predicted his coming. Those who were prepared to listen to the message of the Qur’an and try to understand it. Not those who totally rejected him as the last Prophet and showed open enmity towards Islam

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator August 2, 2020 at 10:54 am

    Arabian Peninsula was deemed by Allah as a center of monotheism, and people of other religions were not allowed to maintain or obtain permanent residency on this piece of land. If this requires further debate please start a new discussion.

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