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Proof Of Prophethood
What is the proof of prophethood for Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم
Is it different for us and the Arabs of the time?
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57 Replies
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Proof Of Prophethood
updated 3 years, 9 months ago
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57
Replies
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Even though we can make use of established history as a source to prove this, but in my humble opinion that approach is weak. Because again, it could be argued that it wasn’t my own experience so there’s no reason for me to testify or deny perhaps.
I would use the other approach and prove Muhammad (saw)’s prophethood through the Quran itself.
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Yes but sister I didn’t experience Pakistan being built in 1947- but it is an established fact nonetheless. The Quran and also the completion and fulfilment of the punishment on the mushrikeen and ahl e kitaab from one Arab against the whole of Arabia is also very strong proof imo
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Yes for this very reason i chose to go with the other approach, bhai. Because people are normally believing what they are believing based on historical facts. But completely dismiss this approach when it comes to religion, for some reason that i fail to understand. So i thought judging something which i have right now based on something that i have heard to be true would be weaker ‘as compared to’ if i take the other approach. It has never worked for me like that.
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For example, one can argue whether Muhammad (saw)’s experience at the cave of Hira was true or just an illusion, but, from the content of the message itself i can verify the integrity of the whole experience.
Please correct me if you think it should be the other way.
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I think that argument would be dishonest taking the entire mission’s facts into acvoumt
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So judging the message from its source would be a better approach in your opinion?
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I think both used in tandem is good. But I also think the Quran itself is definitely enough. We must keep in mind though that established history is a very important source of knowlegde
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Itmam-e-Hujjah
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Preservation of Quran, prophecy of prophet Muhammad pbuh in other scriptures, scientific miracles, and Qurans Challenge to produce surah like it
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1. Preservation of Qur’an can’t be used as a proof of it being true. Any book can be preserved by human effort and Qur’an was also preserved by human efforts too. There are doubts if some verses are lost or not and there are doubts if some letters are missing, but that is a different topic. Even if it is preserved dot by dot, and letter by letter (which it is apparently not), it doesn’t have any basis to prove that it is a true book. Many books/creations are preserved for centuries. I don’t think this can be used as an argument.
2. Prophesy of Prophet Muhammad in other scriptures : On one hand you say that other scriptures are corrupted, but then use the same scriptures to prove that they correctly predicted Prophet Muhammad’s arrival ? When questioned on those scriptures verses, you give your own interpretation of them, which is inconsistent. None of those scriptures unequivocally mention Muhammad exactly, and even if they did, there is no reason to believe those scriptures are correct.
3. Scientific miracles : I don’t even know what is the meaning of scientific miracles. There are no miracles in science. Qur’an is also full of scientific mistakes, if one reads it with one lens. However, with enough twisting of words, one can make the passage say something which confirms to the science. If science changes tomorrow, will you twist the same verses to confirm to the new scientific discoveries ?
4. Qur’an challenge to produce a surah like it : This claim is fallacious. If I can’t create a surah like Qur’an, does it mean Qur’an is true ? If I can’t run faster than Usain Bolt, does it mean Usain Bolt is the best human ever?
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1) Preservation of Quran (which is word by word preservation of course) is in itself a great feat but not a proof of its being true. The content of Quran, the metaphysical and philosophical topics it talks about and with no apparent contradiction along with the fact of its eloquent language produced by unlettered person who was chosen as Prophet and had no literary background whatsoever but a pious personality. Added with the final proof of ittemam-e-hujjah makes a strong case of prophethood.
2) Scriptures are not preserved like Quran, but that doesn’t mean everything in them has been corrupted. Nevertheless, they need to be studied under the umbrella of Quran and whatever is acceptable under yardstick of Quran will be accepted and Whatever is in contradiction with Quran, that will not be accepted.
3) There are no scientific errors in Quran in our discourse but a rational approach would be to critique the arguments we use, both linguistics and others while interpreting those verses.
4) Quran’s challenge is not that of producing a replica of it’s Surah but producing a piece of literature that addresses such philosophical topics like death, origin of matter, origin of humans, consciousness and other related topics with so much depth and with no apparent contradiction along with the eloquence of language. This is what that challenge means.
Also if you or anyone else for that matter can’t run faster than Usain Bolt, this doesn’t make Bolt the best human ever but it for sure makes him the best runner ever.
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1. Since you are not presenting preservation of Qur’an as the proof of it being true, I won’t argue against it further. There are a lot of earlier claims made by many Muslim scholars about Qur’an being preserved dot by dot and letter by letter and some of those claims are being questioned now also. Anyway that is not the topic of this thread, and anyway you are not using it as an argument for the truth of Qur’an, which Kamil did, so my response was to his claim.
2. In the context of Bible and Torah being corrupted, and using the argument that Muhammad was predicted in them, this argument is fallacious if we accept that they are corrupted but the parts which confirm with Qur’an are not corrupted. We can’t use Qur’an to verify those claims which will then use to confirm Qur’an to be correct. Whether those scriptures are really corrupted or not, or which parts are corrupted and which are still valid, is again a separate discussion. However, we can not use the “umbrella” of Qur’an to verify which parts of Bible and Torah are NOT corrupted, and then use those parts and the prophesies in them to prove the Prophethood of Muhammad. I hope you see that it is a circular argument.
3. There are scientific errors but I am not making the claim. Kamil’s claim was that scientific miracles in Qur’an can be used as an argument to prove that it was word of God. I can show that none of the verses are scientific miracles, unless we use some mental gymnastics to interpret them to confirm the current scientific discoveries like big bang. When we use the same mental gymnastics to prove that Qur’an is wrong about Sun revolving around earth, the Muslim argument is that it doesn’t directly say that. However, Muslims don’t find any problem to claim that big bang is NOT mentioned directly in Qur’an either but they claim it is mentioned. This is inconsistency.
4. My point was that it doesn’t matter how great a book of poetry/linguistic Qur’an is, it doesn’t make it true. Similarly, it doesn’t matter how fast Usain Bolt runs, it doesn’t make him the best ever moral human being.
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1: Quran has falsification test of it wasn’t preserved then we can say it’s not from God
2: (A)Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;. Quran 7:157. (B) That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants – well acquainted and Fully Observant. (The Noble Quran, 35:31)” That is why we Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran.
3: Your subjective opinion doesn’t matter ,there’s not even a single scientific error in Quran, you made a claim now it’s your duty to prove it
4: Quran has falsification test so if you can bring a surah like it then Quran can be declared false but till now no one has brought something like it, btw challenge is to bring surah like it not better than it and we know there are many runners like ussain Bolt and there’s many book like Shakespeare’s book
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1. How is preservation a falsification test of Qur’an being from the God ? A book or monument/record can be preserved as it is a human effort, and it doesn’t prove it to be true.
2. Not sure how you can use Qur’an verse itself to prove it as true and decide which parts of Bible and Torah are to be accepted as un-corrupted. Circular reasoning .
3. Both scientific miracles and scientific errors can be found if you try hard enough to twist and interpret the verses. Give me a clear verse in the Qur’an which unequivocally specifies a big scientific discovery like big bang and I will accept it has scientific miracles. Remember you brought the argument that it contained scientific miracles and hence it is true. I didn’t bring the argument that it has scientific errors and hence it is false. Since the scientific context is not my argument/domain.
4. I already covered this point twice in my comments previously about Usain Bolt example. No point repeating it.
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1: It is. Preservation at that time wasn’t easy task
2: you will never be sure that’s not something knew I know you how you respond and try to prove something false after twisting and applying false logic
3: You brought this argument that there are scientific error, so please bring your evidence
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth.
When He decrees a thing, He does only say to it, ‘Be!’ and it is. (2:118)
ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity, which We then parted asunder? – and [that] We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, [begin to] believe? Quran 21;30
4: yep no need to bring that useless point again and again as you have asked that before to on twitter
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1. Preservation at that time wasn’t “Easy task” ?? Is this your argument that since it wasn’t easy, it must be done by God ? Building pyramid wasn’t easy task either, and I am sure it has more reasonable claims of being a superhuman work than preservation of a book. Many people believe that how can such pyramids be built by humans, was it work of aliens ?
2. I think you are using circular reasoning and calling my logic false, when I clearly pointed out that there is no way you can use Qur’an to decide which parts to accept in Bible to then use them to prove Qur’an as true. It is circular reasoning at its best.
3. Heaven and earth were NOT joined together .. the earth did not exist then at the time of big bang . Now I am sure with enough twisting and interpreting you can prove it. Like I can prove that Sun revolves around earth. In fact many Muslim scholars believed it, and still believe that Sun revolves around earth. Now I am not saying those Muslim scholars are right, but they used some interpretation to confirm it. Tell me one Muslim scientist who discovered that Qur’an mentioned big-bang, before the scientific community came up with the big bang theory. If Qur’an is so clear, why didn’t any Muslim scientist come up with it ? It is always after science discovers something, religious apologists try to find references of the same in their holy book. Why not do it forward ? Find some vaccine of Corona virus from Qur’an and Hadith before scientific community comes up with it. If Qur’an is full of scientific miracles, is there any vaccine someone derived from reading Qur’an ?
4. It is not twitter. Also, just because you call my point useless, doesn’t make it useless. You are entitled to your opinion. However, Qur’an being a literary excellent poetry/prose book has nothing to do with it being the word of God.. and honestly the claim is ridiculous.
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1; Lol you are comparing physics work with mental work. I’ll say that again preservation isn’t simple task none of those religious book are preserved exactly as Quran even gospels authors are unknown OT himself says that it’s currupted as said in Jeremiah 8:8
2: You are in denial mode all these books were revealed by same God and as allah said whatever confirms Quran is true.so You are free to reject
3: The entire import of the verse is that the Heavens and the Earth were once an undifferentiated mass, ie: a ratq. Nowhere in the verse does it say that the Heavens and Earth were always in their current form. Quite the opposite — it says they were once a ratq
There were many Muslim scholars who believes in heliocentrism very few were in favor of geocentrism even Wikipedia agrees with this now you’ll say wikipedia is not reliable, I know that but my point is that you are fake news. LOL whole Muslim world believes that universe was created. About Covid-19 vaccine Quran is not a science books it’s a book of sign yet there are few more scientific miracle which hasn’t been proved yet but inshaallah in future they will be proved.
4: Its simple challenge just to produce surah like it. When you can think Quran is creation of man then why cant anything similar to it created??? Even Arabs were great poets. Ridiculous because you can’t answer that challenge
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The video you mentioned citing Zakir Naik specifying which part of Bible is true .. he is saying Qur’an and authentic hadith is used to judge ..
Do you realize the circular reasoning ?
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Kamil, I think we both have made our points clear.. no point repeating them in circles.
Just to say that your 4th point looks very odd.. how does creating a surah like it will help prove or disprove its truth is beyond my logical understanding.
Anyway, thanks for your inputs. Let the people judge on the arguments we both made.
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I think Kamil is saying that if you want to reject this is from God- because you think a human made it- then prove it! Make something like it
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But that is a fallacious challenge. Me or anyone else being able to create something like it, doesn’t prove or disprove whether the work is from God. Also, who will be the judge of it ?
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Yes it does- because only if you can match it then it is not from God. Because God’s words are impossible to be created by a human. The judge would be logic and intellect and resson
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Logic and intellect of whom ? If we can match it then it is not from God ? Does it mean if someone can match Bible, then it is not word of God ?
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Logic and intellect doesn’t matter where it comes from
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It matters.. it is a subjective opinion.. plus it is an illogical challenge anyway. I can write a book and claim that NO one can write a book like it.. it doesn’t make my other claims as true.
I gave an example and let me repeat it. If Usain Bolt says he is the best and most moral human being created by God, and asks you to prove him wrong by running faster than him.. will you accept his challenge? In fact his challenge is more logical, because it can be verified by timing the 100m race.
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If no one can write a book like the Quran then that means that the author must not be human. If he is not human then it means it is divine.
If usain bolt says no one can run faster than me then he is the worlds fastest human.
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If no one can write a book like Qur’an, it doesn’t mean the author wasn’t human… it just means that the author is the best writer/poet ever.
If no one can run faster than Usain bolt, it doesn’t mean he is not human.
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But when this writer is illiterate then how can you say he is the best poet/writer?
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Let me make it clear.. I don’t agree Qur’an can’t be matched or bettered even.. let the poets decide it. However, I don’t know enough about Muhammad being illiterate, to claim that he can’t create poetry. If he was illiterate, it doesn’t mean he can’t be creative or intelligent.. he used to conduct business and he had written letters .. he met a lot of people .. and there may be many sources of his collecting info..
I seriously don’t know enough about his entire life history to accept or reject the claim that he was illiterate and/or he can’t create good poetry himself.
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Some people/stories believed that the great Indian poet Kalidasa was an illiterate too.. so it is possible to create brilliant poetry despite being illiterate. Blind people can create great paintings too.
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Sam you are escaping the real question you brought the counter argument whether someone can run faster than ussain bolt or but that’s a difficult task even after that it’s still possible, but what quran says if you are in doubt then something similar to which is one of easiest task but as we no one in this 1400 yrs was able to bring something similar to it, I know you will say that can someone bring something similar to Shakespeare book answer is yes there are many authors who wrote similar to sakespere book https://www.goodreads.com/author/similar/947.William_Shakespeare
Yes he was illiterate he didn’t wrote letter infact his writing was not good as mentioned in hadith where it’s written that he erased the name and wrote muhammad son of Abdullah that’s all
With regard to Kalidasa it’s believed that after his wife expelled him from home he went to jungle and there he become literate
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In the entire human history, no one was able to run faster than Usain Bolt.. and you are talking about 1400 years of Qur’an challenge? Usain Bolt has been the fastest ever.. so accept ALL his claims about him being the most moral human being ever. Right?
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Do you know about sriniwas gauda??? Btw even in last 2 championship match he wasn’t first
In 2017 he was third and in 2019 he was not even in top 3
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Please don’t talk nonsense. Srinivas Gauda doesn’t run on his own but is pulled by the bull.. don’t compare him with Usain Bolt just to make any argument.
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Did I say something about him I asked you whether you know him or not.
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What is the point of mentioning him when I talked about Usain Bolt.. ? Totally irrelevant point.
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If Qur’an were really from God, its claims wouldn’t be doubted so much still now. So many reputed Islamic scholars devote their entire life to understand it, and still get the wrong meaning.
Qur’an claims to be fully clear and detailed explanation of all things but it seems scholars are not even agreeing on basic rules and laws in it.
How can such a book be called a miracle, unless we consider confusion a miracle.
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Kamil mentioned about big bang in Qur’an.. but interestingly none of the Islamic scholars read Qur’an and gave the world the knowledge about big bang in last 1300 years.. only in 20th century, when Atheist scientists come up with the origin of universe, the Muslim apologists borrowed the discovery and attributed it to Qur’an. Intellectual dishonesty to the extreme.
First use the same verse and give the explanation of big bang .. why rely on other scientists ?
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Sam stating theory and proving something is different infact even before discovery whole muslim world believes that universe was created and after that it was smoke
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So, why didn’t Muslim scholars read Qur’an and come up with big bang theory ? If Qur’an verse was so clearly mentioning big bang.. it shouldn’t have been too difficult to come up with the explanation in 1300 years.. why those scholars were busy in deciding the length of the beard ?
Any Muslim scientists read Qur’an and come up with any invention which helped humanity? No.. zero.
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I don’t think science in the Quran is proof of it. Rather when the Quran talks about these things it is never wrong
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It is not my claim.. it is the claim by Kamil and Zakir Naik.
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LoL where did he said that it’s your claim?? Btw still he says that Whatever Quran says about science is 100% true and there’s not even a single scientific error
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Single scientific error ? Science keeps changing .. and comes up with new discoveries and truths .. does it mean Qur’an verses keep changing with time ? Yes..
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Sam I meant established science it’s comman sense
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There is nothing like “established science” . It keeps changing every few years with new discoveries .. and I like how Qur’an verses and Muslim apologists keep adjusting the word of Allah to suit the latest science.
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I like the way you discover to answr us btw you really need to learn what science is and it’s terminology https://www.jstor.org/stable/187558
Have Funn
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Oh .. so you are trying to throw around terms like established science when there is nothing like that .. it is always the current scientific truth .. which every century kept on changing.. so was Qur’an scientifically wrong with previous science and correct with current science?
If after 200 years, science makes new discoveries about universe/earth/sun, which is completely different from current known science, how will your scholars interpret Qur’an verses then ? They will ignore science or will twist the verses to suit the new science of that time.
Your approach of proving Qur’an’s truth with science is flawed when science itself is not static about truth.
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Sam you are really in denial mode did you read what I respond??
Whole muslim world believes that universe was created it doesn’t matter who discovered it what matters is whether Quran confirms that or not. Do you know about Dr Kieth L Moore and his embryology research paper??
Do you know about Dr kozai???
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Keith L Moore didn’t accept Islam .. he never responded to his claims .. but how is embryology relevant here ?
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It doesn’t matter whether he accepted islam or as I’ve said that before I don’t think I’ve repeat same point again and again what I asked is have you read Dr Kieth L Moore embryology research paper???
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Why should I read his paper ? I am sure you are not reading all those papers which prove evolution theory as true ..
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LoL you were the one who asked whther Quran benefitted or not now you are saying I will not okay. Good luck👍, btw for your information evolution is in my study syllabus and I do read evolution theory and what I’ve found that Quran too agree with evolution theory but it rejects Darwinian evolution
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So, you confirm Qur’an with your syllabus?
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First of all established science doesn’t change. earth being flat or static etc etc wasn’t established at all. You are free to reject it will only show how irresponsible or ignorant you are
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What do you mean by “established science” ? What was the scientific opinion in 7th century about earth being flat or sun revolving around earth ?
There were no scientific conferences in 7th century, so how do you define established science of 7th century?
Calling me ignorant or irresponsible will not help . Answer the arguments, don’t worry about my personal characteristics.
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Please stay on the topic – Proofs of Prophethood. I am closing this discussion. If you want to discuss a different topic, please create a new discussion.
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