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Murdering A Self Proclaimed Prophet
I have read the articles on this forum regarding blasphemy which were very helpful. Thanks.
I want to know that if someone claims to be a prophet, then does that come under blasphemy or something else? If it comes under blasphemy then I am clear on how Surah Maida verses can be “wrongly interpreted” and used to kill such a person in country like Pakistan where blasphemy law exists.
However, if this is not blasphemy, as he is not saying Anything against our Prophet then what verses are used to support killing of such a person?
Can someone please share comparative scholarly views on this matter as well?
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46 Replies
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Murdering A Self Proclaimed Prophet
updated 3 years, 8 months ago
6 Members
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46
Replies
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If blasphemy law in Pakistan is completely baseless and un-Islamic, why is it in place ? If it is un-islamic, what is the punishment from Allah for those who attributed false rulings in the name of Prophet and made them part of Islamic law ?
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@Sohail any update on this please?
Are we suppose to just drink cold water if someone continues to utter nonsense about being a prophet AND calling themselves muslim?
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If someone calls himself a Muslim (while not being a true Muslim), what is the problem it causes you ? Let Allah be the judge of him.
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For comparative scholarly view, you can see these.
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He is suggesting that a muslim who commits blasphemy, should be killed because of apostasy.. and not because of blasphemy… it is even worse.
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According to this scholar, the killer of the blasphemer did a good job and he should not be punished.
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We are not here to judge people. Let Allah be the judge. The blasphemy law in Pakistan is extremely misused. Accusations are made to settle scores. We have seen innocent people killed. Our governor Punjab was killed in broad daylight by his own guard just because he talked of protection of the minority. Just recently a person was killed in the court right in front of the judge because some body had accused him of proclaiming he was a Prophet! He was not even given a chance to clear his name.The Qur’an says you kill one person is like killing the whole of mankind. Some instructions were given when the Prophet was giving instructions to his addressee. I have sent a clip by Dr Khalid Zaheer that you should see
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“The blasphemy law in Pakistan is extremely misused”.
If it were not misused, would it have been proper to have it ?
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No I don’t think so. Even during the Prophet sws time no body was punished for uttering words against the Prophet sws. The Muslims were told to ignore mushrikeen who were deliberately uttering words against Prophet sws. This is a Pakistani Ulema made law which Muslims use whenever it suits them.
About Apostasy when the message of the Prophet sws was absolutely clear to his addresses , then a Muslim who left Islam could be killed. This was time specific and DOES NOT apply today. Nobody Has the right to judge another person. Allah will judge each and every one and he is all knowing. The person in the clip is talking nonsense and will be answerable to Allah.
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“The Muslims were told to ignore mushrikeen who were deliberately uttering words against Prophet sws”
Do you have hadith supporting this or is there a Qur’an verse directing Muslims to ignore the blasphemy against the Prophet ?
“The person in the clip is talking nonsense and will be answerable to Allah.”
He is sadly not alone, majority of the Islamic scholars believe in it. In fact, very few scholars like Ghamidi saab oppose this law.
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This is an anchor (not a scholar) view appreciating such a killer .. I am sad to see that such acts of killing are being appreciated and such killers are being considered heroes in the society. I am sure Ghamidi saab opposes such things, and I am sorry to put this clip, but it seems to be the view of a large number of people in the society.
There is a reason I respect Ghamidi saab and people like him , despite disagreeing with him on truths.. because he has guts to say that such acts are wrong.. and such laws are wrong .
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Sameer I will look up the references in thr Qur’an regarding the Muslims being told to ignore the Mushrikeen for insulting the Prophet sws
I’m sorry that an anchor would say such things. Ghamidi Sahib totally opposes such utterances. Yes I’m afraid a large number support such views and make the killers heroes The Qur’an and Sunnah never allowed this. You cannot take the law in your own hands
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Can I ask you a hypothetical question ? Let’s suppose for some time, that blasphemy punishment is approved by Prophet (assume that the hadith is sahih and it really happened that Prophet approved of killing the blasphemer) .. will you still say that killing of blasphemer is wrong or will you say that since Prophet approved of it, it is correct to kill the blasphemer ?
In other words, I am asking if your opinion on a moral issue changes based on Prophet’s act/opinion or you think killing of blasphemer is morally wrong anyway ?
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This is a hypothetical question. The Prophet sws never approved of the blasphemer being killed. I will not believe that the Prophet sws would ever approve of such an action. I personally consider it morally wrong in any circumstances. Allah has not given us permission to take any human life. The only time I think a person can be killed if he has killed another person, or the person is causing “fisad on earth” like a rapist who is causing havoc in peoples lives. A rapist who rapes innocent children. In both cases the court has to give the guilty judgement and the state implements the punishments
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Well, my question was hypothetical but a very real possibility (the hadith exists, and is called Sahih by reputed scholars) ..
Can you answer my question please?
If you find that Prophet indeed approved the killing of the woman who insulted him, will you say that Prophet did wrong ? Or you will say that since Prophet approved of killing her, it was justified ?
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Can you please quote the hadith
I will not believe that the Prophet sws would order the killing of a woman who insulted him. So the question of my agreeing does not arise. There is hadith of a Jewish woman who threw garbage at the footsteps of the Prophet’s home daily and the Prophet sws ignored it. Then one day there was no garbage thrown so the Prophet sws went to the woman’s house to inquire if she was sick. I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this hadith
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Please see this thread where brother Ahmad is talking about this hadith being weak (however it is called Sahih by many reputed scholars).
The hadith about Jewish woman who threw garbage is not authentic at all .. in fact its authenticity is so weak that none of the books included it..
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Let me tell you categorically that any Hadith which is not line with the Qur’an is not correct. There is no punishment for blasphemy in the Qur’an and no punishment for apostasy either.
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There is punishment for apostasy at least in the time of Prophet .. even Ghamidi saab agrees on it.. (after completion of proof).
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Sameer for your knowledge
Sameer please read these instructions from the Qur’an to the Muslims regarding the blasphemy remarks made by the munafikeen and mushrikeen about Prophet sws
Surat No 2 : سورة البقرة – Ayat No 104
یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا لَا تَقُوۡلُوۡا رَاعِنَا وَ قُوۡلُوا انۡظُرۡنَا وَ اسۡمَعُوۡا ؕ وَ لِلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ عَذَابٌ اَلِیۡمٌ ﴿۱۰۴﴾
O you who have believed, say not [to Allah ‘s Messenger], “Ra’ina” but say, “Unthurna” and listen. And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment.
Surat No 4 : سورة النساء – Ayat No 140
وَ قَدۡ نَزَّلَ عَلَیۡکُمۡ فِی الۡکِتٰبِ اَنۡ اِذَا سَمِعۡتُمۡ اٰیٰتِ اللّٰہِ یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا وَ یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا فَلَا تَقۡعُدُوۡا مَعَہُمۡ حَتّٰی یَخُوۡضُوۡا فِیۡ حَدِیۡثٍ غَیۡرِہٖۤ ۫ ۖاِنَّکُمۡ اِذًا مِّثۡلُہُمۡ ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ جَامِعُ الۡمُنٰفِقِیۡنَ وَ الۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ فِیۡ جَہَنَّمَ جَمِیۡعَا ۨ ﴿۱۴۰﴾ۙ
And it has already come down to you in the Book that when you hear the verses of Allah [recited], they are denied [by them] and ridiculed; so do not sit with them until they enter into another conversation. Indeed, you would then be like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers in Hell all together –
Surat No 5 : سورة المائدة – Ayat No 57
یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الَّذِیۡنَ اتَّخَذُوۡا دِیۡنَکُمۡ ہُزُوًا وَّ لَعِبًا مِّنَ الَّذِیۡنَ اُوۡتُوا الۡکِتٰبَ مِنۡ قَبۡلِکُمۡ وَ الۡکُفَّارَ اَوۡلِیَآءَ ۚ وَ اتَّقُوا اللّٰہَ اِنۡ کُنۡتُمۡ مُّؤۡمِنِیۡنَ ﴿۵۷﴾
O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers.
Surat No 5 : سورة المائدة – Ayat No 58
وَ اِذَا نَادَیۡتُمۡ اِلَی الصَّلٰوۃِ اتَّخَذُوۡہَا ہُزُوًا وَّ لَعِبًا ؕ ذٰلِکَ بِاَنَّہُمۡ قَوۡمٌ لَّا یَعۡقِلُوۡنَ ﴿۵۸﴾
And when you call to prayer, they take it in ridicule and amusement. That is because they are a people who do not use reason.
Surat No 63 : سورة المنافقون – Ayat No 8
یَقُوۡلُوۡنَ لَئِنۡ رَّجَعۡنَاۤ اِلَی الۡمَدِیۡنَۃِ لَیُخۡرِجَنَّ الۡاَعَزُّ مِنۡہَا الۡاَذَلَّ ؕ وَ لِلّٰہِ الۡعِزَّۃُ وَ لِرَسُوۡلِہٖ وَ لِلۡمُؤۡمِنِیۡنَ وَ لٰکِنَّ الۡمُنٰفِقِیۡنَ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ٪﴿۸﴾ 13
They say, “If we return to al-Madinah, the more honored [for power] will surely expel therefrom the more humble.” And to Allah belongs [all] honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know.
I think after this it is very clear that the Qur’an does not mention ANY PUNISHMENT for blasphemy. So again please do not accept any Hadith as Sahih unless it has references in the Qur’an and in line with it.
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I know Qur’an doesn’t prescribe the punishment for blasphemy and/or apostasy both, however, even Ghamidi saab agrees that apostates at the time of Prophet can be killed (after denial of completion of proof).
Do you even deny that ?
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Yes I understand the same. But this was applicable only at the time of the Prophet sws when a man had accepted Islam and then decided to leave it. Apostasy only becomes a crime after one accepts Islam after itmam-e-Hujjat of Rusul and then leaves it. These were the directives of Allah. Please note that this was not applicable at any other times on the Muslims and is not applicable on any Muslim today. Unfortunately some people decide to apply directive which were time specific at the time of Prophet sws, today with grave consequences. Therefore the State has to make a law against the misuse of blasphemy and apostasy instructions
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Forget about itmam-e-hujjat for sometime .. is apostasy in itself a crime ? You said that the hadith is wrong, because Prophet would not have killed anyone for blasphemy, but you have no problem if the Prophet kills anyone for apostasy?
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The people who were killed for apostasy were killed on the orders of Allah and the Prophet sws followed the directives.
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I asked you in the other thread, if you come to know that Prophet killed some people will you call it wrong, you said it wasn’t possible that Prophet would kill these people, since it is immoral act .. now you are saying that with Allah’s order it is possible.. so something which you thought was immoral, becomes moral just because Allah said it.. right?
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Allah’s commands will never be questioned by the Prophet sws or any other messengers. The Prophet sws carried out every command of Allah. His own inclinations are not being discussed
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So, you think that Prophet’s own inclination will be to not kill these people, because it is wrong and immoral to kill them.. but Allah ordered him to kill and then it becomes right and moral ?
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I am not aware of Prophet’s inclinations
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In other thread, you said Prophet would never do such a thing because it is immoral.
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I think the Prophet sws obeyed every instruction of Allah
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If someone claims that he is a prophet than you have the example of muslima Kuzab and others who claim them as a prophet in the time of Hazrat Abu Saddique’s رضی تعالی عنہ
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There is no punishment for this in Islam. You cannot judge what is in any one’s heart. Allah will judge him in the next life. Mashal Khan was a mazloom. We garland killers who ended other people’s lives for blasphemy and make them heros. Did our Deen teach us this?
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Good.. if there is no punishment for this in Islam, there should be public movement against the blasphemy punishment laws in Pakistan, as they are being called in the name of Islam.
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Of course there should but if the clergy disagrees nothing will be done
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So, the clergy has more power to define Islam’s image than the scholars like Ghamidi saab who studied it for years and understood the correct meaning of Islam ? All 4 sunni schools of thought give punishment for apostasy, and according to Hanafi school, a Muslim blasphemer is an apostate and is fit to be killed, it seems all of them got it wrong.. but the fact is they are the ones who define Islam currently in the world.
We can talk all about it is not part of Islam, but almost all the mainstream scholars agree that both apostates and blasphemers need be killed. If “true Islam” is only what is in the mind of Ghamidi saab, and all the mainstream scholars and clergy are propagating “cruel Islam” .. what one can say ? Finally what is being practiced is important, and apparent as Islam.
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I am saying it again and again Islam does not prescribe any punishment for blasphemy. For apostasy the punishment was given during the time of the messengers by the order of Allah. This was finished after the Prophet sws time
No state no person can give punishment for blasphemy or Apostasy in our present time. This is not his domain in this world.
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One more thing. I believe in the Qur’an and Sunnah so what the 4 Sunni schools say does not influence me!
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It may not influence you, but it is what is the mainstream Islam.. whether it is true or false interpretation, is subject to debate.
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After watching this video you can understand that mollanas are so powerful in Pakistan. They encouraged a fourteen years old boy to take the justice in hand and ruined his life
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It is disgraceful. Was any action taken by the a State?
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Now he got releases from jail
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Is this justice?
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