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  • Allah Has Form Or He Is Formless ??

    Umer updated 3 years, 6 months ago 5 Members · 33 Replies
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor July 30, 2020 at 12:51 pm

    Surah ikhlas ayah 4

    • Ali Shaikh

      Member July 30, 2020 at 1:21 pm

      Nor is there to Him any equivalent; Quran 112:4

      Is it saying that he has form but unknown to us??

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:22 pm

      God is outside of the sphere of the physical realm I believe

    • Ali Shaikh

      Member July 30, 2020 at 1:25 pm

      He is like energy???

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:26 pm

      Brother- you cannot imagine God- there is no equivalent. There is literally no way to imagine what he is

    • Ali Shaikh

      Member July 30, 2020 at 1:32 pm

      Ok Got it.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:38 pm

      If there is literally no way to imagine what he is, how can you be sure that he exists or he communicates with humans ?

    • Ali Shaikh

      Member July 30, 2020 at 1:40 pm
    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:43 pm

      If there is no way to know what God is .. how do you know her attributes ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:44 pm

      Concept of unseen. Also we only comprehend attributes in a primitive sense

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:45 pm

      Isn’t it convenient to discuss attributes and at the same time say that we can never imagine what God is ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:46 pm

      We cannot fully comprehend the attributes of God- it is in a primitive sense we do so

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 1:50 pm

      We use the human intellect and human definition of those attributes to use them for God.. but when we ask details, people say that one can never imagine God .. this is a cop out..

      Why you say that he is omnipotent, merciful, formless, hates or loves people when you can’t even imagine what he is ?

    • Ali Shaikh

      Member July 30, 2020 at 4:07 pm
  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 30, 2020 at 4:13 pm

    We do not know the reality of Allah SWT – we only know Him by His attributes. Form implies time and space, and He is beyond such limitations.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 10:30 pm

      Why is he beyond such limitations but is not beyond being merciful, showing love and dislike ? Even deception ?

      The basic point is.. if we don’t know his reality, how can we know what are the attributes?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 10:32 pm

      We do not know the true reality of these attributes either. The same way when God refers you his hand we know it is not a hand how we imagine one. This is a basic concept. They are Simple explanation in human terms so we can slightly understand God

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 10:37 pm

      I think the writers of Qur’an (who were obviously humans) didn’t think through these concepts properly. That’s why now we are saying “we can’t know what Allah really is” .

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 10:39 pm

      The reason we can’t know how God really is because if he could be imagined by us he would be finite- as we can only imagine finite things. This concept is clear from surah ikhlas ayah 4. There is no equivalent unto him. It goes against the definition of God to say he is imaginable by finite human minds which are run by senses and experience

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 10:57 pm

      I am not asking for all his boundaries, once he let us know he is infinite.. but when someone shows he has hands, and is sitting on a throne, then obviously we will question if he has form or is formless. At that time, the copout answer is .. we CAN’t know his reality ..

      Why is the same answer not used when declaring that he is merciful, has hands, sits on a throne, forgives and punishes people, also shows love and dislike.. shows deception for disbelievers?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 11:15 pm

      I have already said- the use of hands is clearly not literal. The use of words like mercy and knowledge are only known to us in our concept. The same way we can’t grasp the reality of the being of Allah’s hand we can grasp the reality fully of his mercy or any of the things you mentioned

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 11:16 pm

      In other words, you are saying we should not ask these questions because there is no answer.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 30, 2020 at 11:19 pm

      If you mean asking about the true nature of God with no barrier – then no human can experience this or even come close to it through imagination

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:12 am

      No.. I am asking full analysis of the attributes God has told us .. at least they should be fully explainable.

      Suppose God tells us that he is just and fair.. we understand these attributes through our human intellect and human perspective only. Now when we go analyse this attribute and find some inconsistency in his justice and fairness, you are telling us “don’t apply human perspective to these attributes because God is beyond all these limitations” .

      By this logic, I can define an entity any which way I like because I don’t have to justify anything..

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:14 am

      Ok- the attributes of God are part of him- inseparable- the are eternal with him. They do not require any contingent object to verify or validate them. The ability to exercise them this means, always existed.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:15 am

      But if you are asking to understand his attribute eg of power or creation- then look at the world around you and read the stories of how he destroyed nations. But don’t think this is the maximum of where his power could reach- as it is infinite

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:18 am

      When you say his power is infinite, and I ask how.. and when we analyse those infinite powers, you say that due to some other attributes the questions are illogical..

      Well.. then don’t use those attributes if you can’t explain them fully.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:16 am

      Well, I am finding them inconsistent.. so you have to explain them through the human perspective only. Just saying God has these attributes won’t suffice. Some of these attributes are inconsistent with each other.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:17 am

      Please start a new thread if you want to discuss thesE

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:21 am

      You mentioned God is just and fair.. when I give some examples that he is not following justice.. you MAY say that justice in front of God is beyond our full understanding..

      This is a cop-out answer.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:22 am

      Please start a new discussion with your examples

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 31, 2020 at 12:24 am

      One example was giving more rewards on deeds done on some days more than others. Please explain it in that thread how is it justice and how is it fair ?

  • Umer

    Moderator August 6, 2020 at 4:16 pm

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