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God’s Knowledge And Freewill
Does God’s knowledge interfere with human freewill? What about the 10 sahaba? Did them knowing they are going to jannah affect their freewill?
As an answer to the above questions to start the discussion:
God knowing certain facts does not interfere with human freewill- he has given us this attribute/Abi I litt to form an intention and execute it to the extent that he allows.
The sahab knowing they will enter jannah is a prediction fo God – it does not affect their freewill and they would only be able to enter God’s heaven according to his law- for which piety and righteousness from self is required
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97 Replies
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God’s Knowledge And Freewill
updated 4 years, 4 months ago
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97
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Itmame-e-Hujjat works both ways. Not only the rejecters are punished, but the shohadahs, Sabiqoon and Siddeqeen are also rewarded in this world. It is not something unusual if among those people were a few given glad tidings because of other extreme of itmam-e-Hujjat. Remember! their judgement happened in this world.
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Brother @UmerQureshi what would you say to this?
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Their judgement was made in this world. They passed the test in this world. And just like muaneedeen, who were ordered to be killed no matter what (whether from jews or pagans), the other extreme is the sabiqoon, siddeqeen and shohadah who were given glad tidings in this world of their success. Its not about that particular Hadith of ten Sahaba only, such verses can be found in Quran as well for the whole group of Sahabas.
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If their judgment is already made in this world itself, why their life test was continued ? If polytheists test was terminated why these 10 people’s test was continued ?
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This might also add some value to the discussion, please refer to the following video from 1:46:48 to 1:47:27
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How does it answer my question ? I haven’t watched the video yet, but since Ghamidi saab speaks in Urdu, it is sometimes difficult for me to understand him.
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The issue is not in God’s knowledge of the future (well that’s problematic too but a slightly more complex discussion).. the issue is in God’s fixing the future and also letting the 10 people know that they are in heaven.
Now, if one of the 10 people WANTS to commit shirk, and is willing to exercise his freewill, then how will he do it ? There is no way he can commit shirk now, because his future course of action is decided and enumerated to him.
He has just become a robot, who for the rest of his life, will follow a certain path.. I don’t see ANY freewill here after the knowledge of his future is made known to him.
It is a separate matter, that many Shia people believe this hadith is fabricated, because they feel that some of these 10 people were sinners and there is no way God would allow them heaven.
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God has given the prophecy that now he will not use his freewill in this way
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So, the use of his freewill is now decided by God ? He will not use his freewill in a certain way is known to him .. that means his freewill is meaningless from that point onward.
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Freewill. Means that God is giving us a part of his knowledge that he will not use is freewill In this way. Freewill means freewill
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I want to keep God out of it for some time, else the discussion will be derailed to “God having infinite wisdom” (which doesn’t make any sense at all, there is nothing like infinite wisdom), and “God works in mysterious ways” (used to justify everything). God has imparted that knowledge to the 10 companions. God may be beyond space and time, but humans work in temporal time format, and future/past/present have definite meaning in human perspective.
The fact is : Some man X knows his future, and knows that what steps he can take.
Free will means: At any point in his life, X being given two choices A and B, can independently choose either A or B and change his future accordingly.
Now if X knows he is going to make choice A only, it means there is no way X can make the choice B, which means his freewill is meaningless. Can X make a choice B, in this arrangement ? How will he use his freewill if the only choice he is going to make is A and it is already decided by someone else and is made known to him ?
That’s why I make the claim that any person X who knows his future can NOT exercise free will to create a different future.
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Knowledge doesn’t have casual power. What is the thing suppressing the exertion of freewill here?
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Please explain the use of X’s freewill to make the choice B here when he knows that he is going to make choice A ..
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‘X knows he will make choice A’ . This means that he is choosing. How is he choosing? With his freewill. He will not make choice B with his freewill and that is what we are being told. As it was said- knowledge has no casual power in this sense
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So, you are confirming that X can’t make the choice B in this arrangement, right ?
Let me address the problem in another way. X knows his future, how ? Because X’s future is fixed by someone else already. Knowledge is not random, it is about a fixed future .
Now we are dealing with a fixed future for X.
X is faced with two choices A and B.. but his future is fixed (by someone else) that he will make choice A… so at this point of time, X can’t make the choice B, because his choice A is already fixed by someone else.
When my choice is fixed by someone else, I don’t have freewill.
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God’s knowledge is based on our actions not the other way around
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I am talking about X’s knowledge .. How can X know his future if his future is not fixed already by someone else ?
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Because God knows he will take an action by his freewill and is letting X know this. He is simply telling X you will not do B. And it is clear that he will not do B by his own freewill. God is not stopping him from doing B rather he is telling him the choice he will make. God’s knowledge of our actions is based on them rather than the other way around
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Please don’t bring God again. Let’s concentrate on X.
X is sitting at the juncture of making the choice A and B.. but his future at that time is fixed that he will make the choice A . This concept of knowing future, will create a subtle contradiction, which I am failing to make you understand.
Let me try more. Let’s discuss who created the future of X ? What caused future of X to be created ?
Future is created by X’s choices or is it created by someone else (God) ? If X is the one who is creating his future, then X can’t know his future before making the choice, because choice is going to create the future. If someone else (God) is creating his future, X doesn’t have the free will.
X’s future is dependent on his choice, so before making the choice, X’s future is not created yet, so how can X know his future when it is not yet created ?
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Well we’re going to have to bring in God. God knows what choice X will make by his freewill. He is letting X know this. The choice was going to be made by X anyway by his freewill- now he just knows it
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I think you ignored my entire point. I would request you to read it again.
When X is responsible for creating his future, and that future is dependent on his choice, which X has not made yet..
Something which is not yet created, can’t be known to X.. because X can create it or not create it, no one can know it before it is created.
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God knows X will create his future in this way as God knows the future. And God is letting C know you will use your power of choice to create your future in this way
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X can’t know something which is not even created yet. So, we have to fix that is the future created by X or by God ?
Knowledge can only be for fixed things, not non-existing things.
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The future will be created by X. And God knows this. And he tells X you will create the future in this way
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Knowledge can only be for fixed things, not non-existing things. Something which is not yet created, how can anyone know it ? There are multiple possibilities of that thing, and knowing one of them is truth, means other possibilities can’t exist.
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God can know it and he can choose to let someone in on knowing a part of it
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God can’t know it either if the power to create it lies with X .. God’s knowledge is limited by the freewill he gives to X..
Can God create the future ?
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God knows the future. He knows how X will use his freewill
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God can’t know the future if the future is not yet created. IF God himself creates the future independent of X, then only God can know.. God can’t control his choice.. in his scheme, God has decided to not interfere in the choice made by X..
Let me ask a slightly different question. Do you believe in dua ? Does God listen to dua ? Does God react to dua ?
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God can know the future of the people and how they use their freewill. Dua is a concept that if a person asks God will give it to him.
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How does God know the future of the people and how they will use their freewill ?
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Because he his God
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Again that is a copout answer.. How can God know an uncreated thing ? The knowledge of uncreated event is not something I can understand,.. and you should explain me in human terms how does ANY entity (God or not) know about something which isn’t even created yet ? How can God know something without it being created?
Also God promised to conduct our tests.. but here God cheated and let some people know their results before their exam was over.. is this the scheme of God?
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Because God omniscient
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In other thread you claimed that God can do anything which is POSSIBLE.. you rejected answering the question of God can’t do something impossible, because such an event does NOT exist.
Now God knows everything .. so you should also apply it to the point of those things which exist.. God knowing something which is not even created yet, doesn’t make any sense, unless God is controlling the event creation.. which God has promised to not do it.
Also, God cheated by letting people know their results before their test was over..
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You misunderstood what I meant then. Any irrational action cannot take place. A square circle cannot be made. Knowing that someone will do a certain action is not irrational or illogical
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No.. I didn’t talk about square circle, but ability to lie.. and that was not irrational, it was just according to you, violating his speech being eternal attribute.. and that’s why you denied answering the question.
Knowing that someone WILL do a certain action is irrational.. no one has ever displayed such a quality and it can’t be displayed because that WILL is in future and God has created a scheme where he doesn’t control that future.
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Future can’t be known because it does NOT exist yet. In the scheme of God, he also did wrong by declaring the test result before their test was over..
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As brother Umer said their judgement was completed in the world. Many things don’t exist yet eg hell and heaven and they are known
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Can you explain what does verse 87:2 and 87:3 mean ?
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If their judgment was completed in this world, why were they allowed to live further ? Why did God not take their lives like he did with polytheists?
Also, what does verse 87:2 and 87:3 say ?
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It says God proportioned and created and he measured and guided.
Maybe bro. @UmerQureshi can answer why they weren’t killed better but it is probably as a sign of rejoice and blessings and they were given dominance over the disbelievers- it is the sunnah of Allah to do this.
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The logic given was that their test was over.. so no need to make the polytheists live further.. now once the test is over, why make the sahabas live.. the purpose of sending EVERYONE was to test them..
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87:3 says :
Muhammad Sarwar: decreed their destinies, and provided them with guidance.
It means God created their future…
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Well that is his interpretation of the word. And the destinies in question here are related to thugs we can’t control eg places of birth family etc. It is clear form the Quran that the actions are our own
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destiny is our fate .. our death and our afterlife…
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This is not the concept of taqdeer in Islam
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I think the verse is translated to say this.. so it means the verse is contradicting your meaning..
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You can’t just take one verse out of context from the entire Quranic concept of fate
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The logic given was that their test was over.. so no need to make the polytheists live further.. now once the test is over, why make the sahabas live.. the purpose of sending EVERYONE was to test them..
What is the purpose of sending sahabas on earth ?
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That was the logic for a certain argument
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Does God keep changing his logic? Does God interfere in our free will or not ? For example, if Muhammad had chosen to reject the message and refused to carry out commands of God , would God allow it ?
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All of these ifs and buts. The fact is God knew he would not reject it out of his own freewill.
God’s sunnah is the prophet comes rejectors are dominated by believers
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God knew ?? Again the question is.. did any human have any free will then ? If God knows everything right from the start.. does God create the future ?
Also, does God interfere in this world of humans actions ? If I make a dua of getting a certain person in my life, will God accept this dua or it will be dependent on that person’s free will ?
Does God only know or can God change things in this world ?
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Knowledge does not have casual power.
Hopefully brother @UmerQureshi @faisalharoon could provide better insight to your second question.
We have freewill but God will decide if the thing you are going to do- if he will give it permission to occur
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We have freewill, and ask dua to God .. and the other person also has freewill .. then how can God allow anything unless that person wills to come in our life?
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I believe God would create an inclination in that person towards you
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Means God will influence his freewill ?
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How is this influencing freewill? It is simply an inclination- the choice is still theirs
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So, if he makes a choice to not come in my life, how has God accepted my dua ?
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Dua can be answered in one of three ways:
Giving you what u asked for
Rewarding you in hereafter for it
Averting some evil from you
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So, the 1st way is not possible for God, without the freewill of the other person, right ? So, when we say “InshaAllah he will come in my life” .. this is not exactly possible with God’s will, because that person has his free will not to come in my life.
Similarly, if my actions alone decide my destiny in hereafter, then I know I can enter heaven, based on my actions alone or will God use his own judgment on it ? There is a hadith that someone dying from stomach disease is a martyr..
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God can create the inclination which could lead to them loving you.
Sorry I don’t I’d erstand your second question.
The stomach problem hadith is not to be taken out of context. The term martyr would be applied to someone who does in the purpose of God so the disease must’ve been a common thing people contrscted when going for war etc
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God can create the inclination but can’t bring them in my life or cause them to love me.. that is their freewill.. so God can NOT cause it. I don’t know what InshaAllah means then.
How can stomach disease be caused by fighting in the purpose of God (jihad) ? Also plague is another reason of being martyr.
My second question was : If I follow all the rules given in Qur’an and Sunnah, and do EVERYTHING in them, will I surely enter heaven ? OR can God still make me enter hell if he wants to ? In other words, my entering heaven or hell is completely dependent on my actions/intent or is the result not in my hand ?
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God can create the inclination and if the person acts on it then you dua is accepted in the first way.
Insha’Allah means if God wills. You can try as hard as you want with your willpower to do something but until the permission of God comes it will not happen- eg you try to shoot someone , God does not want the person to die so it jams
Basically if you are doing something for the sake of God and you get stomach disease- or you catch the plague. This was probably common in large armies where diseases could spread.
God will do justice. I can’t judge if anyone will go to hell or heaven based on outward things.
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InshaAllah is not valid because it depends on the will of the other person..
InshaAllah is not valid because God has chosen to not interfere in the prevention of acts done by the freewill of the people.. we observe the world, and see that dua doesn’t save people from being killed. If the shooter doesn’t have the freewill, he will not kill him.
“Basically if you are doing something for the sake of God and you get stomach disease- or you catch the plague”
The hadith does NOT relate it to fighting in the cause of God at all , it is your own insertion. Also, if fighting in the cause of God makes you a martyr then why only these two diseases are mentioned.. Prophet could have mentioned the “death in the cause of God” itself.
God will do justice according to the rules mentioned in Qur’an ? By that logic, is it clearly outlined what I need to do to enter heaven ? Will God’s will work even after that ?
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The other person may try to come to you with his freewill but Allah kills them. Or multitudes of other problems may arise. Insha’Allah is valid.
This is why singular hadiths are not taken as independent sources.
God said he will do justice according to his law and this is his will. God does not change- as this implies contingency due to lack of necessity of any prior state
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So, InshaAllah and InshaThatPerson should be the valid thing.. because it depends on the will of both. Anyone of them, can deny it.. by the way, what does it mean by Allah kills them ? Does Allah create the killing or humans kill them ?
Take all the hadiths of this topic into consideration and let me know what is special in stomach disease and plague ? If he dies due to infection in war, will he not be martyr ?
God does not change ? God gets influenced by our dua, right ? And based on our dua, God’s actions in the world change ..
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Yes but that person isn’t God so we don’t ask for their permission the same we invoke God because they are not the being through which all things are permitted to occur.
I mean God could kill them before they love you.
That is the point my dear brother. These were probably two major diseases that occurred in that time during wars so they were given special attention.
No. God has set out a requirement that if this person asks me only then will I give it to them
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In the scheme, God’s will alone will not work.. we have to have the InshaAllah and InshaThatPerson for our wish to come true.
“That is the point my dear brother. These were probably two major diseases that occurred in that time during wars so they were given special attention. “
The hadith is general, not specific to Muhammad’s time.. also the understanding of the hadith is not specific to fighting in the cause of God only.. Please give me proper wording of the hadith by combining all the hadiths in the topic and then we will see.. by the way this is off topic.. so please provide your comments here in separate thread of hadiths:
“No. God has set out a requirement that if this person asks me only then will I give it to them”..
Does God’s action depend on our asking or not ? Does it not mean his actions are influenced by our dua ?
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When God created Muhammad, did he know that he will become the messenger or God first chose him to be the messenger independent of his free will ?
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God knew that this person will be chosen as a prophet
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When God created a scheme to test , then why change that scheme for different people ?
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The result of the scheme will of course be different- that’s because people will do differently in the test
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But why not allow polytheists also to complete their test ? Why kill them before their entire test is over?
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Their test was ended- the truth was made so clear to them that they had no possibility to decline.
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But people are many times arrogant, and if they are given more time, may be they would have changed their mind.. on sahabas, the decision was taken based on their whole life, right ?
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God’s decision is just
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No it is not, please prove his decision is just.. it looks random to me… when you give one person full chance to make choices, and kill other person without giving him full choices.
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Full choice was given o both of them and an ultimatum too. The actions in that time frame had equal weight and consequence to both
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God sends two humans to test them.. both their tests are over .. one is killed , the other is allowed to live.. why ?
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Sunnah of God to give believers dominance.
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Giving the believers dominance, does NOT mean allowing them to live once their test is over.
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Ummm. If there dead where is the dominance
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There could be other believers too.. because even before receiving victory, many believers were killed by God in the wars.. without giving them dominance.
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You are mixing many things bro. What other believers- the test of everyone was ended and judgement was made and brother Umer said above? They were martyred.
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The believers who died in wars with Pagans/Meccans.. why they were not given dominance ?
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The believers as a community are given dominance.
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Ok.. so it means, there was no special need to allow these 10 specific people to give them the dominance individually, right ? So, why keep them alive after their test was over ?
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The punishment of death is a humiliation too . Why would God humiliate these people?
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Death is not necessarily a humiliation… Prophet died too..
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The ‘punishment’ of death. Not the natural passing away
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There is no punishment of death.. the test is over, so kill them .. Not all non-natural deaths are punishment from God.. even Prophet supposedly died from poison that Jewish woman gave as per Islamic sources (though many doubt the authenticity)
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Brother it is simple- these people as a community had heaven promised to them. If they commit shirk they will go to hell. Same if they apostate. If they stay the way they are they will be rewarded
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Some people of the community of believers were killed as per Allah’s will (like uncle of Prophet) and I am sure he will be in heaven too .. so why was he punished with death in the war but Abu Bakr was allowed to live for longer ?
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The original question was answered in the beginning. The rest of the conversation has nothing to do with the original question. Please keep discussions on topic, and when needed create new discussions.
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