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Exile Of Non Muslims From Arabia
I have talked to dr SS and he has said that the non Muslims were in a process of being exiled which ended at caliphs of Umar. This is in accordance with 61:9
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41 Replies
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Exile Of Non Muslims From Arabia
updated 3 years, 8 months ago
4 Members
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41
Replies
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If a non-Muslim country does it to Muslims, will you consider it moral and justified ?
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If it is there belief then we should respect and comply
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If they attack Pakistan and throw out all muslims from their homes, will you say that one should respect and comply ?
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Today is not like the era of conquering. Also if the perform itmam e hujjat we cannot deny. Even if Saudi today conquered another country and forced Islam on them it would be wrong. It is the land of Arabia specifically upon which this ruling applies
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Itmam-e-hujjat is Muslims’ view .. and Muslim criterion.. something which the non-Muslims of Arabia didn’t agree on .. it was Muslims’ own criterion and they themselves were the judge if their truth was proven .. it is the ultimate form of compulsion ..
Now, if a non-muslim army did the same by applying their own criterion of “completion of proof” and threw muslims out of their homes.. I am not sure many will call it moral and justified.
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Some refererences to understand difference b/w Nabi, Rasul and how Itmam-e-Hujjah works
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As we discussed in “no compulsion” thread, it is immaterial if completion of proof is done.. as it is the Muslim view .. forcing people to accept Islam or be killed .. is certainly compelling them. Also, if it is so clear, that only wicked can deny it, then what is the problem in applying it now ? Are we saying that at present, the truth of Islam is not clear ? What about the people who deny the current Islam ? Is current Islam not so convincing as it was in the time of Prophet ?
When Prophet wrote letters to other kings, he did not explain them the truth.. just sent them letters and threatened them to accept Islam or be killed.
Now, if letters can work as proof, then what is the problem of today ? Today, we know about Prophet more than what those kings might have known.. today we have the best scholars, and medium of information .. almost every detail about Prophet and Qur’an is available today.. what valid excuse does a person today have which he can use to deny Prophet ?
In 7th century America, the native Americans, might not even have ANY idea who Prophet Muhammad was .. so what about their completion of proof ?
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Everyone will be judged according to their ilm / knowledge and the level of itmam-e-hujjat that became evident to them. The same applies to 7th century Native Americans. The itemam-e-hujjat of Prophet Muhammad (sws) was limited to the countries where letters were sent and it was not just letters, it was this iconic event that happened in Arabian Peninsula that became a source of Shadah itself. Please refer to the video I shared in response to your question of letters that you posted somewhere else, all of these questions have been answered there, both with respect to letters and other implications of itmam-e-hujjat.
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Yes, in that video, the question was not answered properly by Ghamidi saab. The anchor asked a very good question, that the iconic event can’t be used as completion of proof for the kings, and the answer from Ghamidi saab was not convincing.
What was that iconic event which happened in Arabian peninsula that should convince everyone that Muhammad can be nothing but the messenger of God ? Is that event not applicable anymore ? And why such an event wasn’t informed to native Americans ? Is God’s plan limited to Arabian peninsula only ?
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If someone conquers America then wouldn’t the world accept him. The same way if he preaches that it is from God and then brings the punishment he would be accepted. This was done on a smaller scale due to the lack of communication but surrounding lands knew this.
People will be judged on their level of knowledge
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Lack of communication ?? Supposed creator of the universe was bounded by lack of communication ??? Is that the reason, the final message to the “whole humanity” remained confined to Arabia only (apart from the letters sent to nearing kingdoms known to the “final messenger” ? Is it because the message didn’t reach America because God didn’t know how to communicate it to America ? When Muhammad was sent as a mercy to the whole world, why he was not made known to all the people in the world ? Did Muhammad even know America existed and people lived there?
Do you honestly not see the problem with this? It is very very clear that Muhammad was a local Arabian man, and he did things in the locality/area which were known to him.. there is NOT a single supernatural occurrence of events in this ..
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God chose to send his message to a certain place in a certain time according to his will.
Reading the Quran with sincerity- an open heart and mind would lead us to think otherwise
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Ha ha.. apparently that certain message was confined to Arabia and the near kingdoms Prophet Muhammad knew. It is very clear that Muhammad did NOT know America existed and people lived there too.. else he could ask for divine help in making his message reach those American people also..
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Jews and Christians were first exiled to Khaibar and when they still didn’t stop their plotting against the state, they were exiled further.
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The question is .. why exile them from their homes in the first place ? Were all of them plotting against the state ? Is this the moral principle used by Islam to throw out people from their homes based on their religion ? If some people were plotting against the state, why not identify them and kill them, and ask God’s help in identifying such people, instead of throwing all of them ?
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They were exiled as Arabia is God’s chosen land for monotheism to always be there
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So, everything is justified in the name of God then ? If they accepted Islam, they wouldn’t be exiled.. now I asked the question, if a non-Muslim army comes up with their own version of truth and comes up with their own version of “completion of proof” , and throws out all Muslims from their homes, will you honestly say it would be moral and justified ?
What kind of God is fine with throwing people out of their homes .. when one verse says .. “Allah doesn’t forbid you to treat those people justly, who didn’t throw you out of your homes due to your religion” .. Irony.. huge irony..
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Yes I would accept it if they proved to me it was God’s will
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They proved to you? No.. they would just say you denied the truth in your stubbornness .. remember this is the same thing said by Muslims.
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So we see the Quran and it’s divinity is proven. Thus we know form it that the people were rejecting by stubbornness.
If I say don’t kill because it’s wrong. You say I don’t know why it’s wrong. And you kill. So I lock you up in jail. You are clearly in the wrong and everyone can see.
If the people were truly from a divine being then their efforts also couldn’t be stopped – other countries would probably try and defend
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You see the Qur’an and its divinity is proven ? No.. it is not proven to those who rejected Muhammad. It is fallacious to claim that anyone who denied him was acting out of stubbornness.
If the same principle is applied by non-muslims, they don’t have to come from divine being.. they just have to claim their version of truth.. and say that you deny their truth out of stubbornness.
“If the people were truly from a divine being then their efforts also couldn’t be stopped – other countries would probably try and defend” ..
Oh no.. please.. Hitler couldn’t be stopped before he killed millions .. China is not stopped .. there were many warlords in the past who weren’t stopped .. apparently God didn’t care enough to stop them .
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Everyone can see murder is wrong so if the people rejected it is clear they are in the wrong. Justice and clarification of the truth or the evil nature of murder won’t be proved by liars of a murderer
Ummmmm hitler didn’t claim to be a messenger of God
Your claim God didn’t care is based on you thinking this world only exists and not the hereafter.
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Everyone can see throwing people out of their homes based on their faith is wrong too.. but apparently Islamic morality is different.
If Hitler didn’t claim to be the messenger of God, he wouldn’t be stopped.. but he claimed racial superiority and killed Jews based on their race/religion.. so why God didn’t stop him ? Does God stop only false Prophets ? There are many false Prophets going on in this world even now.. why God doesn’t stop them ?
My claim is : God doesn’t care what happens in this world in terms of morality/false prophets etc.. this claim is observable. Afterlife is not observable.
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The point being made here is that the action was done by God as per his sunnah. Maybe brother @UmerQureshi or @faisalharoon can explain further.
My point was different. I meant if a prophet of God wanted to take over a country today other countries would come to defence. If this person was a prophet of course God’s will would prevail.
God stops who he wants where he wants how he wants according to his will and scheme.
Every particle on this world screams God’s existence. The innate voice in you necessitates this belief. We can also start a new argument for the kalaam arguments
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“God stops who he wants where he wants how he wants according to his will and scheme.”
Oh .. this can be used to justify anything.. Allah knows best.. Allah works in mysterious ways.
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Well of course we can’t know the reasoning behind all things. It would be arrogant to say we know better than God. After all- he is the wise and knowledgeable.
We are needy he is free from need.
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Why Is prayer 5 not 6. Why fast only one month?
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Valid questions.. are these numbers arbitrarily and randomly chosen ? Remember Qur’an is “detailed explanation of all things in religion” .
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This is a very basic question .. why Allah didn’t stop evil from happening if he is just .. but we can discuss in a separate thread .. if Allah interferes in the world, and stops people from doing something, then why didn’t he stop Hitler ? If Allah doesn’t interfere, then it is fine..
Saying that Allah does what he wills , is just a copout answer.
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60:8
“Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes – from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.”
Apparently it is justice to throw out those people from their homes who did NOT throw you out from your homes. Very strange definition of Islamic justice.
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You should act justly with them and not be unfair in courts and daily lives. But when the decision of God comes he will decide what is to happen and he decided to exile them
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So, when you throw someone out of his home , it is not injustice in the name of God ?
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God has given them chance to accept the truth. Once they don’t God will decide what to do with them and he will do it with justice
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We discussed it earlier too in “no compulsion” thread.. I proved that it is indeed compulsion if you threaten them with “accept the truth or be killed/thrown out of your home” .
Did verse 60:8 mean that Allah said it is fine to throw them out of their homes in some conditions ?
It seems Islam has its own definition of justice which apparently is ok with hypocrisy .
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If you want to start this no compulsion talk again we can open a new thread. It is a very simple concept and you are complicating it for not reason
60:8 is talking about how muslims should deal with these people.
God then makes a decision and does what is just.
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God did not throw out Jews and Christians from their homes.. Muhammad did. He claimed to be doing in the name of God.
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That is why I think before attacking these branches of Islam look at arguments for its roots. Then all of these things would become clear
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You agreed in the other thread that it was indeed compulsion.. that’s why I didn’t press it further.. but I can take it again if you like in that thread..
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If I did that then I retract my statement… unless it was misunderstood
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Let’s discuss it further in “no compulsion ” thread, please tag me there.. I gave an example of a boy who threatens the girl with accepting him or face the consequences..
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We have to decide it independently that throwing anyone out of his home based on his religion, is morally justifiable or not .. then we can judge if God is just .
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