So is the op’s question affirmative? Will they eventually enter paradise?

Yes but the question is after crimes like death- is there a limited punishment after which heaven will be attained

Except shirk.

Allah doesn’t forgive shirk.. so people who committed shirk can never enter heaven.

Even if the “completion of proof” hasn’t reached him ?

It is mentioned in the video deliberate denial is akin to a punishable crime like murder

But the person is not denying Allah or monotheism, even believes in the judgment day and does charity, but ONLY denies Muhammad as the messenger of God. Please show it through the Qur’an verse.

If it is a deliberate denial of truth it is a crime

Please show it through the Qur’an verse that denial of Muhammad is a crime.

Also, if a person does shirk not knowing that it is wrong, will he be forgiven ?

Ummm surah tawbah? Context of literally the entire Quran?

I believe so if with sincerity he was in a true mistake. I’m not sure though

Can you give me the exact verse ? The video has verses which say Christians/Serbians will enter heaven.. they obviously deny Muhammad .. but accept God/monotheism/judgment day and do good deeds.

In other words, lying is a crime, not shirk, right ? If someone does shirk, it is not wrong, but if he deliberately lies that Allah has partners but in his heart he knows Allah is one, then it is a crime.

Please watch the video again- the crimes are not mentioned there but are in the back of the mind as part of the larger context. It is clear than it is talking about those Christians and Jews and saibeans who are sincere or to whom the message has been yet received in my understanding

4:80 is one example. It is ridiculous to suggest that rejecting the prophet ‎﴾ﷺ﴿ after knowing the truth is not a crime

Please also don’t forget about the fitrah when it comes to shirk

4:80 doesn’t talk about not obeying Muhammad is a crime which Allah will not forgive. In fact, it seems to suggest that Muhammad shouldn’t bother about them.

I will prefer the verses rather than video. I think video is about Ghamidi saab’s own interpretation of the overall scheme.. but I want it to be substantiated with the exact verses.

“It is clear than it is talking about those Christians and Jews and saibeans who are sincere or to whom the message has been yet received in my understanding”

Which Jews and Christians are like that ? If the message hasn’t been reached is the condition, then what is the point of “completion of proof” ? Obviously Qur’an mentions those Jews/Christians which Muhammad is addressing, right ? Or is it about the people in previous generation to Muhammad ? They also received the same guidance as Jesus gave them..

Shirk has nothing to do with original natural tendency, else shirk would be an inherent crime.. but we know that people who commit shirk and then accept Islam, are forgiven and can enter heaven.

Those who deliberately deny a truth once it has become clear to them are punished in this world when a prophet is present or in the hereafter when he is not. Even with shirk true repentance in this world can lead to forgiveness.

To suggest not believing in a messenger of God after it is clear is not a crime which results in hell is absurd.

The Quran talks to and addresses many people.

“Those who deliberately deny a truth once it has become clear to them are punished in this world when a prophet is present”

We discussed it in “completion of proof” thread that Jews/Christians were not killed even though they denied the truth of Muhammad.. the reason given by many people was that Jews/Christians were still believing in monotheism in their own opinion.. so it is clear that deliberate denial of Muhammad in his presence, is not an unforgivable crime that their test in this world is over, and they need to be killed.

“To suggest not believing in a messenger of God after it is clear is not a crime which results in hell is absurd.”

If it is a crime which results in hell, then which Christians/Jews would enter heaven ?

Itmaam e hujjat doesn’t necessarily result in death but dominance. For the mushrikeen it was death for ahl kitaab it was dominance.

The Christians and Jews of the times of their prophets I believe

Itmaam e hujjat means after it is completed, Allah seems to reflect a mini judgment day in this world itself.causing their (the deniers of truth) test to be over . Now what is the point of dominating one group of polytheists (Jews/Christians) and killing other group ? What kind of judgment is this, and what is the basis for this differentiation, specially when it is the judgment day being reflected on a small scale ? Also, which verse in the Qur’an gives the reasoning of this differentiation ?

“The Christians and Jews of the times of their prophets I believe”

Where does the verse say that ?

Because they were not stringent or arrogant in saying we do shirk.

From context- I may be wrong

So, if someone does shirk but doesn’t consider it shirk, Allah will forgive him ? Again, the Jews/Christians denied Muhammad and his message completely, even insulted him.. still Allah didn’t kill them, and continued their test JUST because they were doing shirk unknowingly ?

That means Itmam-e-Hujjat doesn’t work on deniers of Muhammad, as long as the person claims he is not doing shirk.. even though he is doing shirk.

I believe it was because they weren’t attacking or being violent aggressors basically. Maybe @UmerQureshi can elaborate

If the polytheists of Arabia HAD not attacked or hadn’t been violent aggressors, would their TEST in this world not be over even if they denied Muhammad and committed shirk ? Anyway, we can discuss this issue in a separate thread, as the original topic is getting derailed by my side question.

How can “completion of proof” reach him now since Prophet is not available ?

That means non-muslims can’t enter heaven.

As ms Khwaja pointed out above- Sincere misunderstandings may be pardoned

Allah says shirk will not be forgiven .. he didn’t say sincere misunderstandings will be pardoned.

I believe this is an overarching concept

“Please see the reference in Surah Baqrah verse 62. In it is the answer to your question. Whether you are Believer, Jew, Christian or sabeen, who ever believes in God, A day of judgement and does good deeds will have nothing to fear I.e. will be given paradise.”

So, belief in Muhammad being the messenger is not necessary to enter heaven ??

Every nation will believe in their prophet. Original Jews would have ibrahim عليه السلام then Moses عليه السلام etc

Well, Prophet “dealt” with the deniers himself.

We as Muslims believe it was God’s decision

Hmm.. yeah.. in any tribal war, the victorious army claims moral high ground.

But not in every tribal war does he come with an undoubted divine book to which all Arabian linguists were baffled as to how an illiterate man could produce it.

🙂 .. yeah .. we discussed this thing multiple times .. undoubted ?? Not sure .. if it was undoubted, no one will deny him.. obviously many people doubted the book’s divinity. Yes, Muslims will like to believe that Qur’an is an undoubted divine miracle.. I can understand.

This is your own interpretation of history. Please research on how the Arabs were baffled. They denied as to not lose wealth or support from their tribe. They denied as they were stubborn in their own traditions

History is written by victors .. let me know independent accounts (not written by Muslims) which prove that Arabs were convinced Muhammad was the messenger and still denied him.. preferring death .

Here, you are rejecting hadiths written by Muslims which paint a picture different than what you like, so I can assume how will you take to Jewish/Christian/Pagan views on the Prophet.

This is your research to do I’m sure you’ll find something interesting- but please don’t make assumptions beforehand

The hadith your referring to is weak. Weak. Meaning that it cannot be relied on as a historical source. I’ll say it again. The chain is weak

I am not making any assumption.. but just accepting one sided opinion about the other side’s intentions doesn’t make for honest view. All the sides claim the other sides were dishonest..

Which hadith is weak ? It seems almost every hadith is considered weak.

So, 62 doesn’t mention the need for believing in Muhammad to enter the heaven .. but 3:85 says that if you don’t follow Islam, Allah will not accept it.

Sahih International: And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Islam is the name of the religions given to all prophets and nations form God

Yes, but one can’t follow Christianity and enter heaven.. according to 3:85, after the arrival of Muhammad… however the other verse doesn’t say that belief in Muhammad is necessary ..

I think the other verse is referring to those Christians of the time of Jesus عليه السلام who would’ve called themselves Muslims anyway

Where does the verse say that it was talking about the people of the time of Jesus only ? I understand it may be talking about Christians before arrival of Muhammad, but how can you be sure that the verse was referring to Christians (who called themselves Muslims ) only at the time of Jesus ?

Can you please stop throwing context in the bin. Sincere mistakes with a true excuse will be accepted

Where does Allah say that if someone sincerely followed Christianity/polytheism/atheism, his excuses will be accepted ? Please provide a proper unequivocal verse which says that.

I watched the video, and I don’t think his answer was clear.. but you are entitled to your view. Anyway, I don’t want to derail this thread further.