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  • Eternal Jannat For Muslims

    Umer updated 3 years, 6 months ago 6 Members · 66 Replies
  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 12, 2020 at 8:34 am

    Where did you read this? In the Qur’an?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator August 12, 2020 at 9:25 am

    Please watch this to understand the basis of right to enter the paradise as stated in the Quran:

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 13, 2020 at 11:38 am

      So is the op’s question affirmative? Will they eventually enter paradise?

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 13, 2020 at 11:36 am

    Excellent!

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 13, 2020 at 12:09 pm

    Qur’an has laid down certain conditions for anybody going to Jannah and this applies to Muslims and non Muslims. Anybody who has Allah pey Eman, Akhirat pey Eman, and does good deeds is a candidate for Jannah and Allah knows best.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 13, 2020 at 12:10 pm

      Yes but the question is after crimes like death- is there a limited punishment after which heaven will be attained

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 13, 2020 at 9:04 pm

      Except shirk.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 13, 2020 at 1:42 pm

    Only Allah knows. Punishment depends on the crime committed

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 13, 2020 at 8:38 pm

    We can do sincere Taubah for our sins and Allah is merciful and forgiving. Don’t forget he is Rehman & Raheem

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 13, 2020 at 9:04 pm

      Allah doesn’t forgive shirk.. so people who committed shirk can never enter heaven.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 13, 2020 at 9:06 pm

    Yes Allah will never forgive Shirk!

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 13, 2020 at 9:08 pm

      Even if the “completion of proof” hasn’t reached him ?

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:17 am

    Does it mean if a person believes in monotheism, and the last day, also does charity, and other good deeds, but doesn’t accept Muhammad as the messenger of God and Qur’an as the word of God, will he enter heaven ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:23 am

      It is mentioned in the video deliberate denial is akin to a punishable crime like murder

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:26 am

      But the person is not denying Allah or monotheism, even believes in the judgment day and does charity, but ONLY denies Muhammad as the messenger of God. Please show it through the Qur’an verse.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:27 am

      If it is a deliberate denial of truth it is a crime

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:30 am

      Please show it through the Qur’an verse that denial of Muhammad is a crime.

      Also, if a person does shirk not knowing that it is wrong, will he be forgiven ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:32 am

      Ummm surah tawbah? Context of literally the entire Quran?

      I believe so if with sincerity he was in a true mistake. I’m not sure though

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:35 am

      Can you give me the exact verse ? The video has verses which say Christians/Serbians will enter heaven.. they obviously deny Muhammad .. but accept God/monotheism/judgment day and do good deeds.

      In other words, lying is a crime, not shirk, right ? If someone does shirk, it is not wrong, but if he deliberately lies that Allah has partners but in his heart he knows Allah is one, then it is a crime.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:39 am

      Please watch the video again- the crimes are not mentioned there but are in the back of the mind as part of the larger context. It is clear than it is talking about those Christians and Jews and saibeans who are sincere or to whom the message has been yet received in my understanding

      4:80 is one example. It is ridiculous to suggest that rejecting the prophet ‎﴾ﷺ﴿ after knowing the truth is not a crime

      Please also don’t forget about the fitrah when it comes to shirk

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 2:51 am

      4:80 doesn’t talk about not obeying Muhammad is a crime which Allah will not forgive. In fact, it seems to suggest that Muhammad shouldn’t bother about them.

      I will prefer the verses rather than video. I think video is about Ghamidi saab’s own interpretation of the overall scheme.. but I want it to be substantiated with the exact verses.

      “It is clear than it is talking about those Christians and Jews and saibeans who are sincere or to whom the message has been yet received in my understanding”

      Which Jews and Christians are like that ? If the message hasn’t been reached is the condition, then what is the point of “completion of proof” ? Obviously Qur’an mentions those Jews/Christians which Muhammad is addressing, right ? Or is it about the people in previous generation to Muhammad ? They also received the same guidance as Jesus gave them..

      Shirk has nothing to do with original natural tendency, else shirk would be an inherent crime.. but we know that people who commit shirk and then accept Islam, are forgiven and can enter heaven.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 3:00 am

      Those who deliberately deny a truth once it has become clear to them are punished in this world when a prophet is present or in the hereafter when he is not. Even with shirk true repentance in this world can lead to forgiveness.

      To suggest not believing in a messenger of God after it is clear is not a crime which results in hell is absurd.

      The Quran talks to and addresses many people.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 3:04 am

      “Those who deliberately deny a truth once it has become clear to them are punished in this world when a prophet is present”

      We discussed it in “completion of proof” thread that Jews/Christians were not killed even though they denied the truth of Muhammad.. the reason given by many people was that Jews/Christians were still believing in monotheism in their own opinion.. so it is clear that deliberate denial of Muhammad in his presence, is not an unforgivable crime that their test in this world is over, and they need to be killed.

      To suggest not believing in a messenger of God after it is clear is not a crime which results in hell is absurd.”

      If it is a crime which results in hell, then which Christians/Jews would enter heaven ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:09 am

      Itmaam e hujjat doesn’t necessarily result in death but dominance. For the mushrikeen it was death for ahl kitaab it was dominance.

      The Christians and Jews of the times of their prophets I believe

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:12 am

      Itmaam e hujjat means after it is completed, Allah seems to reflect a mini judgment day in this world itself.causing their (the deniers of truth) test to be over . Now what is the point of dominating one group of polytheists (Jews/Christians) and killing other group ? What kind of judgment is this, and what is the basis for this differentiation, specially when it is the judgment day being reflected on a small scale ? Also, which verse in the Qur’an gives the reasoning of this differentiation ?

      The Christians and Jews of the times of their prophets I believe”

      Where does the verse say that ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:18 am

      Because they were not stringent or arrogant in saying we do shirk.

      From context- I may be wrong

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:22 am

      So, if someone does shirk but doesn’t consider it shirk, Allah will forgive him ? Again, the Jews/Christians denied Muhammad and his message completely, even insulted him.. still Allah didn’t kill them, and continued their test JUST because they were doing shirk unknowingly ?

      That means Itmam-e-Hujjat doesn’t work on deniers of Muhammad, as long as the person claims he is not doing shirk.. even though he is doing shirk.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:23 am

      I believe it was because they weren’t attacking or being violent aggressors basically. Maybe @UmerQureshi can elaborate

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 6:25 am

      If the polytheists of Arabia HAD not attacked or hadn’t been violent aggressors, would their TEST in this world not be over even if they denied Muhammad and committed shirk ? Anyway, we can discuss this issue in a separate thread, as the original topic is getting derailed by my side question.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:24 am

    I think there is some confusion. God did not punish the Christians and Jews because they believed in Montheism. Islam means submission to God. They never denied the presence of God. They had some misguided deviations like believing in Jesus as the son of God. Jesus never claimed this. Also was the message of the Qur’an delivered clearly to the non Muslims? If they had received the message clearly, understood it totally, and then deliberately rejected the message of the Qur’an then they will be accountable. What about people who were not born Muslims or from Ahle Kitab, what happens to them? They can be Hindus, Buddhists, Sabiens, Zoastrians, people with no religion. They were born in the families who practiced the faiths of their forefathers.Did they look for the truth sincerely? If they were totally ignorant and remained ignorant, then what I understand ( I may be wrong and can be corrected) then God will judge them according to how they lived in their present life. Were they morally upright and honest with their fellow beings, were their practices moral? Think of some Africans countries where there is no religion where they live according to their tribal customs, the men can have 10 wives! The women can walk in the nude! Where genital mutilation is carried on.!

    When they die can they ask God, no messenger came to us, we had no book for guidance, why were we not born in a religious environment? Too many unanswered questions! Will any Muslim, or non Muslim be pardoned if he is a murderer, rapist, kills people who do not agree with his beliefs? Think about it. Just the title “Muslim”is not going to take you to heaven.

    When I said Shirk will not be pardoned, I meant if some one does not do sincere tauba, and reforms himself and dies doing shirk, then I think he won’t be pardoned

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:26 am

    Shirk is not believing in one God, not about believing in the Prophets

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:30 am

    If “ completion of proof” has not reached him till he dies, then I think he will be judged by what he knew

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 8:45 am

      How can “completion of proof” reach him now since Prophet is not available ?

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:35 am

    People who commitEd shirk, then asked forgiveness and enter Islam can go to heaven

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:36 am

    Anybody who believes in Allah must believe in all his prophets and all the books

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 8:37 am

      That means non-muslims can’t enter heaven.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 8:39 am

      As ms Khwaja pointed out above- Sincere misunderstandings may be pardoned

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 8:44 am

      Allah says shirk will not be forgiven .. he didn’t say sincere misunderstandings will be pardoned.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 8:47 am

      I believe this is an overarching concept

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:52 am

    I never said that.

    Please see the reference in Surah Baqrah verse 62. In it is the answer to your question. Whether you are Believer, Jew, Christian or sabeen, who ever believes in God, A day of judgement and does good deeds will have nothing to fear I.e. will be given paradise.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:04 am

      “Please see the reference in Surah Baqrah verse 62. In it is the answer to your question. Whether you are Believer, Jew, Christian or sabeen, who ever believes in God, A day of judgement and does good deeds will have nothing to fear I.e. will be given paradise.”

      So, belief in Muhammad being the messenger is not necessary to enter heaven ??

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:08 am

      Every nation will believe in their prophet. Original Jews would have ibrahim عليه السلام then Moses عليه السلام etc

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 8:58 am

    The Completion of Proof is the message of the Qur’an. It is our duty as Muslims to deliver the message in a polite manner to everybody who is ready to listen. Even the Prophet sws was told to deliver his message and then if somebody did not accept it leave it to Allah to deal with him.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:08 am

      Well, Prophet “dealt” with the deniers himself.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:10 am

      We as Muslims believe it was God’s decision

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:24 am

      Hmm.. yeah.. in any tribal war, the victorious army claims moral high ground.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:25 am

      But not in every tribal war does he come with an undoubted divine book to which all Arabian linguists were baffled as to how an illiterate man could produce it.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:27 am

      🙂 .. yeah .. we discussed this thing multiple times .. undoubted ?? Not sure .. if it was undoubted, no one will deny him.. obviously many people doubted the book’s divinity. Yes, Muslims will like to believe that Qur’an is an undoubted divine miracle.. I can understand.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:29 am

      This is your own interpretation of history. Please research on how the Arabs were baffled. They denied as to not lose wealth or support from their tribe. They denied as they were stubborn in their own traditions

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:31 am

      History is written by victors .. let me know independent accounts (not written by Muslims) which prove that Arabs were convinced Muhammad was the messenger and still denied him.. preferring death .

      Here, you are rejecting hadiths written by Muslims which paint a picture different than what you like, so I can assume how will you take to Jewish/Christian/Pagan views on the Prophet.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:38 am

      This is your research to do I’m sure you’ll find something interesting- but please don’t make assumptions beforehand

      The hadith your referring to is weak. Weak. Meaning that it cannot be relied on as a historical source. I’ll say it again. The chain is weak

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:41 am

      I am not making any assumption.. but just accepting one sided opinion about the other side’s intentions doesn’t make for honest view. All the sides claim the other sides were dishonest..

      Which hadith is weak ? It seems almost every hadith is considered weak.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 9:21 am

    Reference 62 does not mention any Messenger by name.

    The Punishment for the deniers was given by God’s decisions and instructions

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:25 am

      So, 62 doesn’t mention the need for believing in Muhammad to enter the heaven .. but 3:85 says that if you don’t follow Islam, Allah will not accept it.

      Sahih International: And whoever desires other than Islam as religion – never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:26 am

      Islam is the name of the religions given to all prophets and nations form God

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:29 am

      Yes, but one can’t follow Christianity and enter heaven.. according to 3:85, after the arrival of Muhammad… however the other verse doesn’t say that belief in Muhammad is necessary ..

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:39 am

      I think the other verse is referring to those Christians of the time of Jesus عليه السلام who would’ve called themselves Muslims anyway

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:50 am

      Where does the verse say that it was talking about the people of the time of Jesus only ? I understand it may be talking about Christians before arrival of Muhammad, but how can you be sure that the verse was referring to Christians (who called themselves Muslims ) only at the time of Jesus ?

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:38 am

    Does 3:85 give allowance to polytheists/Jews/Christians/Atheists who didn’t understand Islam properly and completion of proof didn’t reach them ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:41 am

      Can you please stop throwing context in the bin. Sincere mistakes with a true excuse will be accepted

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:43 am

      Where does Allah say that if someone sincerely followed Christianity/polytheism/atheism, his excuses will be accepted ? Please provide a proper unequivocal verse which says that.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor August 14, 2020 at 9:53 am

    I will request to discuss these in the other thread, as my side questions have derailed the main topic of the thread. It is better if we discuss point by point issues in the separate thread.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 10:00 am

    Ghamidi Sahib has given the clear answers. No more going round in circles!

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor August 14, 2020 at 10:02 am

      I watched the video, and I don’t think his answer was clear.. but you are entitled to your view. Anyway, I don’t want to derail this thread further.

  • Rafia Khawaja

    Member August 14, 2020 at 10:02 am

    Sameer I hope Ghamidi Sahib’s answers satisfy you!

  • Umer

    Moderator August 15, 2020 at 1:04 am

    For further clarification on Quran (2:62), please see this:

    Discussion 1906

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