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  • Rafa Yadein

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on October 18, 2020 at 3:23 pm

    Ghamidi sahab says this is an optional action. But the sunnah transmission here seems to be confused. Some say it is fard. Do they say because of ahadeeth? Because then there is no ijma on this topic and therefore no tawatur either. So can it be counted as a sunnah? (An optional sunnah)

    Ahmad Shoaib replied 3 years, 4 months ago 4 Members · 38 Replies
  • 38 Replies
  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator October 18, 2020 at 4:38 pm
    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 18, 2020 at 4:39 pm

      How is it not sunnah? What do we classify it as then? Aren’t there some fard sunan and some not?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 18, 2020 at 4:48 pm

      We can classify as an optional action. There’s no such thing as a fard sunnah and a non-fard sunnah. Certain mandatory actions, such as Juma prayer, will become fard under certain circumstances.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 18, 2020 at 4:49 pm

      How can we say it’s optional? There is no agreement on it being either optional or fard. The three views are that it’s either fard optional or haraam. What evidence do we have to ascribe to any of them?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 18, 2020 at 5:25 pm

      I want to make it clear that we’re talking about the additional rafa yadein after the start of salat. It can be classified as optional because reportedly prophet SAW has done it sometimes.

      Evidence should be inquired about from those who categorize it differently. For it to not be a sunnah, the evidence has been given in my above referenced post.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 18, 2020 at 5:29 pm

      Oh sorry I’m talking about rafa yadein after/before ruku and when coming out from sajda to standing position. Is it any different? Is it simply optional? What’s the evidence that it’s optional rather than an innovation for example?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 10:21 am

      As stated in my previous response “reportedly prophet SAW has done it sometimes.”

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 10:24 am

      But ahadith are not an independent source of religion so why should we use them to prove this?

    • Saba Madani

      Member October 19, 2020 at 10:30 am

      Exactly, that’s my question too

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 11:04 am

      Ahadith not being an independent source of religion means that they cannot initiate anything on their own. Rafa yadein is already a compulsory part of salat that has reached us through ijma and tawatur. The question is whether or not prophet SAW performed additional rafa yadein. If it’s reported in some hadiths that he did, then it should be considered optional. Had it been compulsory, it would have reached us through ijma and tawatur.

      It’s exactly the same concept as in nafil salat. Five daily salat have reached us through ijma and tawatur. Then we have hadith reports about additional salat made by prophet SAW at different occasions. In those cases ahadith are not initiating anything new – they are only reporting prophet SAW performing a previously established religious act as an optional ibada.

    • Saba Madani

      Member October 19, 2020 at 12:20 pm

      We don’t know that the 5 daily salah reached us through ijma and tawatur unless we verify it through hadeeth reports

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 1:19 pm

      Anything transmitted through ijma and tawatur doesn’t need to be verified through ahaad. That’s however a different topic. If you have any doubts about this subject, please feel free to start a new discussion.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 1:39 pm

      So if there were no ahadith (for conceptualisation and deeper understanding) we would not add extra rafa yadein due to the lack of ijma and tawatur right?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 3:07 pm

      We’re not adding anything. From the history related through some individuals, it’s evident that prophet SAW sometimes made extra rafa yadein (a practice that is already established as part of deen transmitted to us through ijma and tawatur). We are categorizing it as optional.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 3:10 pm

      Why are we categorising it as optional at all? Why are we even using reports from individuals for any sharia related matter at all? Why should we even look towards these collections on how to pray? All we can see is that some people are saying it’s fard based on ahadeeth. Some are saying it’s optional based on other ahadeeth. But my question is why are we even looking at ahadeeth? If the ijma and tawattur has transmitted something so clearly what is the need?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 3:12 pm

      I think that I have tried to explain this above with the example of nafil salawat.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 3:13 pm

      Same question comes- why do we even look to ahadeeth for that?

      It seems ijma and tawattur may be secure but not very clear

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 3:34 pm

      Ahadeeh cannot be ignored – they’re our only source to know the seerah and uswa of prophet SAW. The only point to understand is that a hadith does not add anything to the content of religion as an independent source. If prophet SAW performed some additional ibadah, that’s great to know. If we want, we can perform those as well as nawafil.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 3:38 pm

      But this additional ibaadah is not in a vacuum. It is making a claim. It is saying ‘you can also do this in the salah- the shariah permits it’. This is a claim that is supported by none other than the ahadeeth. So it technically IS adding into the religion.

      The point is we can use ahadeeth for uswa etc but for something that is transmitted solely by ijma and tawattur like salah or the method of it why are we looking somewhere else?

      For the nafil prayers I would think that that is also transmitted with ijma and tawattur. No one says it’s haraam to pray nafil or fard. They all say it’s optional (some confused people use different terms but don’t say fard at least).

      Rafa yadein, however, is not transmitted with this ijma and tawattur so shouldn’t be included in the shariah of salah

      It is not introducing a completely new ibaadah (as you have said) but it is still adding to the directive of the prayer (the shariah of it I mean).

    • Saba Madani

      Member October 19, 2020 at 4:47 pm

      “It seems ijma and tawattur may be secure but not very clear”

      Since it’s not very clear it’s not secure

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 5:24 pm

      No, accepting rafa yadein as an optional practice is not adding anything to the content of religion. The content of religion consists of those compulsory beliefs and practices that we will be held accountable for. We’re very clear on the fact that additional rafa yadein doesn’t fall in that category because it doesn’t fulfill the conditions of ijma and tawatur.

      If it’s not compulsory then it’s either a bidah or an optional act. Since we have evidence that prophet SAW himself sometimes undertook this practice and that this practice already has a basis in religion, it can’t be categorized as biddah. That only leaves the possibility that it’s an optional practice.

      Perhaps this can be understood by the example of prophet SAW’s prayer for the rain in the times of drought (salaat al-istisqa). Quite naturally it has not reached us through ijma and tawatur but it’s a great act to humble ourselves in front of God in times of difficulty. Since we have evidence for it in ahadith and since it’s by means of salat which is already established as part of religion, we will categorize it as an optional prayer.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 5:30 pm

      Any prayer like that of when an eclipse occurs or asking for rain is just like a dua or a nafil prayer which has a strong tradition in Muslim societies. It is well known that you can make a dua any time or pray any time for anything. I think it would be correct to say it has ijma and tawattur.

      These actions could arise anytime- we could have a prayer asking for success in exams- because we have the base principle that we pray and make dua in times of need.

      But no one would have ever started to do extra rafa yadayn if it were not for this hadith. It has no basis in ijma since there is so much ikhtelaf. The action has a basis in the religion as what? As the specific action you do at the start of the prayer. That’s the only definite thing we can say.

      If it’s not compulsory it’s either bidah or an optional act yes. Unless we have an ijma or tawattur allowing us to say that it’s optional (like extra optional salah) it would be perhaps a bidah since it is being taken from a hadith.

      And as an addition to my opening paragraphs rafa yadayn is not a worship ritual inherently. It is a method of a worship ritual EG the shariah of it. So to take a ruling from a hadith to add something to this shariah (regardless of if the action itself is already there) is adding to the sharia from khabr ahad.

      Unless there are certain actions that come from khabr ahad. I find no problem to be honest to accept ahadeeth like this since historical principles seem to tel us there would be no need to fabricate something like this no?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 7:09 am

      Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood- this topic is really confusing and has so many nuances

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 21, 2020 at 7:57 am

      You have, but given the limitations of this platform I have done my best to explain it to you. The next best thing you can do is to get in touch with Sajid Hameed sahab. He explains this concept really well, and has already done it dozens of times for his students. Sajid sahab has a study circle every Saturday night followed by a Q&A session that you might want to attend.

  • Saba Madani

    Member October 18, 2020 at 8:59 pm

    The first rafa’yadain at the beginning of the salah, fard? And the rest optional?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 19, 2020 at 2:46 am

      That is what Ghamidi sahab says yes. I’m asking what the proof is for the rest being optional

    • Saba Madani

      Member October 19, 2020 at 6:29 am

      Waiting for the answer

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 19, 2020 at 10:22 am

      That is correct.

  • Saad Anwar

    Member October 21, 2020 at 11:25 am

    Why’s first rafa yadain fard?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 11:26 am

      That comes with ijma and tawattur- same as eg fajr is two rakah

    • Saad Anwar

      Member October 21, 2020 at 11:28 am

      Does ijma have to include every sect? Because ibadi sect doesn’t do rafa yadain at all

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 11:29 am

      I’m not sure but I think it’s that we can trace their going against the ijma and tawattur in their fiqh books. So their action is simply classed as bidah I guess

    • Saba Madani

      Member October 21, 2020 at 11:32 am

      I think ijma doesn’t mean 💯% of the people do it. It just means overall most people do it

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 11:33 am

      No I’m pretty sure it means 100% of the people. But the people who don’t do it are going against the ijma and tawattur based on a bidah

  • Saad Anwar

    Member October 21, 2020 at 11:37 am

    I think the more sound approach is that all rafa yadain are sunnat and not fard.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 11:37 am

      Well the first rafa yadein has always been considered fard to my knowledge

  • Saad Anwar

    Member October 21, 2020 at 11:44 am

    Are ibadi sect left out of every ijma?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 21, 2020 at 11:44 am

      We would see and to my knowledge in this matter they have gone against the ijma and tawattur. How and why and when can be seen by tracing back through fiqh books

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