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  • Establishing That God Doesn't Lie

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on October 25, 2020 at 6:29 pm

    God doesn’t lie because of our fitrah/ Knowing God from our fitrah

    Ghamidi sahab said in his recent live Q&A session that we can ascertain that God does not lie since we wouldn’t like it if someone lied to us- so how could the master of the worlds be lying to us?

    But what does me not wanting someone to lie to me have to do with God’s attributes?

    We know attributes from actions. We can see that God is powerful and creative when we see the universe he created.

    What guarantee or proof do we have that God is not lying?

    Discussion 30080 • Reply 30963

    ‘Consider this rather crude but hopefully a relevant example. An alien from Mars visits you, and unaware of the different genders in humans and the process of procreation, asks you when will you give birth to a child. It’s an irrelevant question because you are a male who can’t give birth – there’s no question of when. The question is based on nothing more than the alien’s ignorance. In order to understand this, he would have to learn who humans are, their different genders, attributes and anatomies of genders, how they procreate, which gender you belong to, and finally arrive at the logical conclusion that you will never give birth.’

    This example that Faisal Haroon gave is interesting. The only way the Martian will be willing to take a test on human procreation would be by observing and testing humans. He would also ask many humans about how this process occurs.

    We simply cannot do this with God.

    ‘God is not asking us to believe in Him based on blind faith. He’s asking us to use the the same natural process to conclude His existence that we use to conclude many other things in life. Once we have arrived at that conclusion, we have no other way to know His attributes, apart from what He has told us. And we have no evidence to conclude that what He has told us is incorrect.’

    I would ask what proof/evidence do you have to conclude that God is correct.

    ‘The question of biased sources come into play when you actually have multiple sources. When all you can know – including your own self and your intellect – is a creation of God, then there’s no question of a biased source.’

    Wouldn’t it be better to say that we don’t have enough proof either way?

    The natural process of getting knowledge is from testing and ensuring our evidences are reliable and unbiased. You won’t ask a person who you are doing business with ‘are you cheating me?’. He will just say what he wants. We will do research in another way.

    Again- we cannot do this with God.

    @faisalharoon

    Mohammad Yaseen replied 3 years, 7 months ago 5 Members · 21 Replies
  • 21 Replies
  • Establishing That God Doesn't Lie

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor October 25, 2020 at 6:37 pm

    My question to Ghamidi sahab had a mention of kalaam. Ghamidi sahab said that how could kalaam prove that God doesn’t lie?

    I’m not sure if there is any problem in the reasoning in the below article- but it seems clear to me. And it is theology/kalaam.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/keystotheunseen.com/2018/10/08/god-does-not-signify-lies/amp/

  • Muhammad Hassan Warraich

    Member October 25, 2020 at 7:29 pm

    I would like to add up to this as:

    Ghamidi sahab said in his recent live Q&A session that we can ascertain that God does not lie since we wouldn’t like it if someone lied to us- so how could the master of the worlds be lying to us?

    But ironically this goes against his own argument of “Fitrah is a source of deen” because if fitrah or our moral self tells us that its bad if someone lies but what about some body being arrogant(متکبر),do we like that and the answer should be that in this case too our fitrah will tell us that being arrogant is bad,but as we know (المتکبر)is an attribute of God.

    علامہ قرطبی لکھتے ہیں۔

    فی الصحیح عن ابی ہریرہ ان رسول اللہ (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) قال فیما یرویہ عن ربہ تبارک وتعالیٰ انہ قال الکبریاء ردائی والعظمۃ ازاری ومن نازعنی فی واحد منھما قصمتہ وقذفتہ فی النار۔

    حضور (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) نے فرمایا اللہ تعالیٰ ارشاد فرماتے ہیں کہ کبریائی میری چادر ہے اور عظمت میری ازار ہے۔ جو ان کو اوڑھنے کی کوشش کرے گا میں اس کی کمر توڑ دوں گا اور اس کو دوزخ میں پھینک دوں گا

    So if something bad for us is not bad for God in every case then whats the value of Ghamidi Sb’s argument in todays live session.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 26, 2020 at 8:46 am

      To add- if our fitrah wants the Lord to be all good, then it also wants him to be all kind. I wouldn’t like to be punished even if I am in the wrong. An all kind person would forgive me unconditionally. So there should be no hell.

      But how is my fitrah the scale- God is just and kind and only he can keep the two in balance perfectly.

      What does my fitrah have to do with this?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator October 26, 2020 at 5:35 pm

      For reference, you’re referring to the Quran verse 59:23.

      The root of mutakabbir is K-B-R, and it’s the same root that’s used in words like kabeer and akbar. The word mutakabbir in 59:23 is used with the connotation of superior, not arrogant.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor October 26, 2020 at 6:13 pm

      I do agree that the Quran shows God to be all good. But what does my fitrat have to do with ascertaining whether all of it is truth?

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor October 26, 2020 at 8:28 am

    The reason I mentioned the Martians was to show that it is perhaps incorrect to claim truthfulness or falsehood- we just can’t. The hudood of our knowledge end there.

    And please don’t think that I’m arguing for the sake of arguing. If this wasn’t a true ilmi issue for me I would never bring it up

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor October 26, 2020 at 10:57 am

    Of course it would be very unreasonable that God sends an angel to a prophet and does all of this just for a lie in the end.

    But then someone would say it seems very unreasonable that God sends angels and punishments and rewards for just a few tiny humans.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor November 2, 2020 at 8:40 pm

      If anyone could brainstorm here that would be great- otherwise I’ll have to pester Ghamidi sahab with my lack of intellect again 😅(hopefully a more eloquent pestering this time)

    • Umer

      Moderator November 2, 2020 at 11:30 pm

      Go ahead! you have my blessingJoy

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor November 3, 2020 at 2:10 am

      🤣

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator November 3, 2020 at 8:43 am

      You can ask as eloquently as you want but I’m certain that you won’t receive a response that satisfies you. As I have pointed out to you multiple times before, this question is irrelevant from the philosophical viewpoint that the Quran presents. It is like inquiring a material scientist about the weight of soul. For him, the entire substance of this universe is only matter – no matter how eloquently you pose your question, he can’t provide you a satisfactory answer.

      The best approach, in my opinion, would be to ask questions to understand the Quranic philosophy of God. Once you understand that viewpoint in depth, whether you’re convinced of it or not, you will at least be able to appreciate why this question is irrelevant in that philosophical viewpoint.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor November 3, 2020 at 9:02 am

      So the same way we can’t know the weight of the soul (eg there is simply no means to find this value) we cannot know if God lying?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator November 3, 2020 at 9:06 am

      No it’s not the same. One more time, this question is not relevant from the viewpoint that the Quran presents.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor November 3, 2020 at 9:07 am

      Could you suggest some resources to read up on this Quranic philosophy? Whatever you see fit- foundational level or something that you think would be appropriate here

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator November 3, 2020 at 9:28 am

      The source text is obviously the Quran. Ghamidi sahab has done a wonderful job in explaining the Quranic philosophy in his Meezan lectures about faith.

      Discussion 22480

      Listen to all of these lectures, paying special attention to ones about the belief in God.

      It will take time – possibly months or even years, so be patient. You might have to listen to each lecture multiple times. When you have questions regarding what’s presented, feel free to ask on this forum or directly to Ghamidi sahab in one of Ask Ghamidi Live web conferences. The goal of this exercise should not be just to superficially answer big questions, but in fact to be able to understand the viewpoint in depth.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor November 15, 2020 at 10:40 am

    I am watching the mizan al hikmah- paired with me asking this question to Sajid Hameed sahab I have come to a new idea.

    Sajid Hameed sahab said that lying is only done out of a need – whether that be fear or greed.

    I asked- what if I just say the sky is red?

    He said that that’s not a lie- it’s a false statement given as an example.

    And God does not have any need such as fear or greed or giving an example- so he does not lie.

    I find this argument very strong.

    May Allah bless everyone who has helped me through this

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator November 15, 2020 at 10:59 am

      👍👍👍

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator November 15, 2020 at 11:00 am

      I am sure when you grasp the hikma part of Meezan, a lot more clarity will set in.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor November 15, 2020 at 11:01 am

      إن شاء الله

  • Mohammad Yaseen

    Contributor November 15, 2020 at 7:11 pm

    Laisa ka misli shai.

    God states that he is unique and nothing can explain him, there are no similitudes. He explains himself as light upon light etc. He is not Zeus or Odin. He is all good.

    It is not like WE give him attributes, it is the other way around. He defines what is truth, what is hope etc.

    Why stop at a lie, ask “does God fear, or get jealous etc.” How many explanations will be provide for each of the negativities. This renders the original question redundant. We cannot project our negativity on to God.

  • Mohammad Yaseen

    Contributor November 15, 2020 at 7:13 pm

    Please listen to this.

    Discussion 35802 • Reply 35802

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