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Time Of Asr And TawaturPosted by Ahmad Shoaib on December 20, 2020 at 7:20 pm
The time for asr from what I have heard (according to the actual meaning of the word) is when the sun rises so that you can see it without raising your head.
So how can we say the whole religion comes with ijma and tawatur if this timing of the prayer is not even used by anyone anymore- both the shafis and the hanafis use a different method afaik.Nazar Muhammad replied 1 year, 3 months ago 7 Members · 34 Replies
Time Of Asr And TawaturNazar Muhammad updated 1 year, 3 months ago 7 Members · 34 Replies
UmerModerator December 28, 2020 at 6:04 pm
In recent Q&A Session with Ghamidi Sahab on Questions selected from ASK GHAMIDI Platform:
For answer to your question, please refer to the video below from 1:14:48 to 1:20:21
Ahmad ShoaibContributor December 28, 2020 at 7:49 pm
For common people like us what should we do. We don’t look at the sun anymore
Ehsen ZeferMember December 28, 2020 at 7:59 pm
For common people there is a watch and timetable of your preferred fiqh is available from your local mosque or online ( Hanbali, Shafi, Hanafi etc.).
Ahmad ShoaibContributor December 28, 2020 at 8:38 pm
Yes I know but how am I supposed to know whether the shafis or the hanafi s are correct?
Ehsen ZeferMember December 28, 2020 at 10:29 pm
All of them are right.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor May 9, 2021 at 9:17 pm
Well all of them can’t be right. Asr has to start at one time- it can’t be starting at different times in the same geographical location.
Ghamidi sahab says that the names of the times have been transmitted with tawatur. But obviously the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn’t just say ‘pray at asr’ but he also actually led the prayer at the time of asr. So if the word had any uncertainty in it, the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم praying at a specific time should’ve cleared that up.
So did he pray at the time that nowadays the shafis follow or the hanafis. Which Madhab has the correct calculation?
Talha MujahidMember June 18, 2021 at 10:59 pm
I also have the same Question which is raised by Ahmad Bhai.
Instead of being a diplomatic, Ghamidi sb should say clearly fiqah hanfi time is correct or shafi time is correct. There is almost a gap of 90 minutes in both times.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 18, 2021 at 11:02 pm
I agree. He should also provide references of his claims for tawatur
Faisal HaroonModerator June 18, 2021 at 11:45 pm
First of all, tawatur doesn’t have any references, and I have told you this multiple times before. Tawatur is the biggest reference within itself. There’s nothing else out there that can serve as a reference for tawatur.
Secondly, as explained by Ghamidi sahab, the difference of opinion is in the application of determination of time. This is a matter of science, not religion. Ghamidi sahab’s explanation is realistic. For a person who has put his life on the line to categorically disagree with centuries old scholarship where such disagreements were in fact due, it’s an insult to label his explanation about an important matter such as this as diplomatic. In God’s religion, matters that hold any significance have been clearly transmitted to us. There’s no reason to insist on splitting hair in the rest of the matters.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 18, 2021 at 11:56 pm
Well for example when Ghamidi sahab says that the last two rakaat are essentially ijtihaadi in relation to what you say in them- this goes against the current amal of the Muslims.
So if he is claiming that this was introduced in fiqh and actually it wasn’t like this always then he should provide the references of the books he has historically consulted to come to the conclusion that it didn’t always have ijma and tawatur because all 4 schools have ijma today.
As for asr time it’s not splitting the hairs. It’s about 90 minutes. The principle issue is that the application of time should not have an issue principally because the whole idea of tawatur is that it’s not fahmi it’s amali. And the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم did lead the asr salah for around 20 years so why is there any disagreement in application when the same amal should be going on the whole time?
Also I don’t personally think it’s disrespectful to say that some scholars got soemthing wrong. You don’t have to be rude about it, just say that I think they’re wrong
Faisal HaroonModerator June 19, 2021 at 12:28 am
This discussion is about Asr time, so let’s stick with that. For other things you can create separate discussions.
90 minute difference may occur in certain situations, but so what? What would make it more acceptable if the difference was only 10 minutes, or even 1 minute? Do we have any certification from God on the acceptable threshold?
Time flows in a continuum, and it’s silly to insist on discrete boundaries of it’s transition. According to one person’s understanding it starts now, and according to another’s it starts several minutes later. Even if you determine the exact minute, another person might disagree with you on milliseconds or nanoseconds. Unless we have clear evidence from God or His messenger clearly pinpointing it and insisting upon it, there’s no point in trying to be so stringent about it.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 19, 2021 at 12:34 am
I said 90 minutes just to highlight the extreme difference in lifestyle it incurs especially for me in the uk. Do I have to pray dhuhr in school or do I have time when I get back home? But I do understand your point about how much time matters. I don’t think it’s practical for us to judge by the second but if we could be that exact then we should be.
The times of prayers are exactly that. We can’t just say oh no this starts here this starts then. Accroidng to ahadith, jibreel عليه السلام taught the times of the prayer, the starting and ending times- he did not say oh this is the 90 minute gap for fajr.
As I said this is an amali matter- the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn’t just say ‘pray at asr time’. He led the prayer for 20 odd years. So when he led it, the sahabah could clearly see the sun and the time he stood up. we can use common sense that if they had you know a 5-10 minute difference sure. But one and a half hour is too big of a gap, just from common sense, especially when salah happens every single day.
As I said the main point is that it wasn’t just said pray asr but the prayer was actually led at a specific time of the day when the sun was in a specific state.
Talha MujahidMember June 19, 2021 at 12:40 am
The hadith Ahmad bhai is referring
Sahih al-Bukhari 521, 522
Narrated Ibn Shihab:
Umar bin Abdul Aziz delayed the prayer and Urwa bin Az-Zubair went to him and said, “Once in ‘Iraq, Al-Mughira bin Shuba delayed his prayers and Abi Masud Al-Ansari went to him and said, ‘O Mughira! What is this? Don’t you know that once Gabriel came and offered the prayer (Fajr prayer) and Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) prayed too, then he prayed again (Zuhr prayer) and so did Allah’s Apostle and again he prayed (Asr prayers and Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) did the same; again he prayed (Maghrib-prayer) and so did Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) and again prayed (Isha prayer) and so did Allah’s Apostle and (Gabriel) said, ‘I was ordered to do so (to demonstrate the prayers prescribed to you)?'” Umar (bin Abdul Aziz) said to Urwa, “Be sure of what you Say. Did Gabriel lead Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) at the stated times of the prayers?”Urwa replied, “Bashir bin Abi Masud narrated like this on the authority of his father.”Urwa added, “Aisha told me that Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) used to pray Asr prayer when the sunshine was still inside her residence (during the early time of `Asr).
How we get to know the time when sunshine used to inside residence
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 19, 2021 at 12:44 am
Maybe windows (no glass) or in an open court
Faisal HaroonModerator June 19, 2021 at 12:45 am
You’re looking at the matter upside down. If the exact time was required, it would have been transmitted to us through ijma and tawatur. Common sense needs to be applied here, not in determining that few minutes difference is okay but 90 minute difference is not. I need evidence for such common sense.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 19, 2021 at 12:50 am
The evidence for common sense is common sense 😅.
I have seen some scholars say (it was a private class so I won’t share name) that the hanifis have the true tawatur snd the other 3 schools follow some Hadith.
There are some practical issues also and logical ones- such as when should we then pray asr? Just flip a coin each day whether we’re gonna pray according to shafis or hanifis? Ok, will my dhuhr be accepted when it is asr time according to shafis? Will my asr be accepted when it’s dhuhr according to hanifis?
Faisal HaroonModerator June 19, 2021 at 1:08 am
“The evidence for common sense is common sense”
It certainly does not seem very common between you and I on this matter! 😁
“will my dhuhr be accepted when it is asr time according to shafis? Will my asr be accepted when it’s dhuhr according to hanifis?”
If your concept of God is an old man sitting in the sky with an atomic clock and a notepad jotting down when Ahmad started his salat on time (which he knowingly kept secret so that He could get you) and when he didn’t then you and I need to have some other serious discussions!
I’m pretty sure which class you might be referring to, but I’m glad that you didn’t mention it by name. However, without getting into which fiqh might be better, know and be assured that in absence of clarity from God and His messenger, whatever conclusion you reach on the basis of your knowledge and effort will be acceptable by God.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 19, 2021 at 1:13 am
Alhamdulillah that’s not my image of God however it doesn’t make sense to me that I tell you come to meet me within those timespan and then I show you someone every day for 20 years what time span I’m speaking about snd then suddenly people say no this timespan is actually a bit more blurry than that.
It’s not necessarily about acceptance rather the law. Like I said are we just going to flip a coin to decide every day?
Talha MujahidMember June 19, 2021 at 1:14 am
It’s not only matter of individual rather whole Muslim society unity based on it. It’s heart rendering to see 6 adhans in one day 4 for other prayers and two for asr with minimum gap of 1 hour.
As ghamidi sb says that for unity of Ummah certain amaals in prayer cannot be get translated into other language, they should be in Arabic. So prayers time should also stay same for the unity of Ummah.
Secondly If God is not strict about timing of Prayers then what is the meaning of Quranic Ayah
ان الصلاۃ کانت علی المومنین کتابا موقوتا.
Ahmad ShoaibContributor June 19, 2021 at 1:36 am
Great points imo
Faisal HaroonModerator June 19, 2021 at 1:41 am
It’s not for you and I to decide which aspects of unity are needed by God. If unity was required by God in the matter of Asr time, that time would have been established by God and His messenger and transmitted to us through unmistakable means of ijma and tawatur.
“If God is not strict about timing of Prayers…”
I did not say that God is not strict about timing. As you pointed out, Quran verse 4:103 has clearly stated that we’re supposed to offer salat in its pre-determined time. However, the beginning and ending of those times can have differences of opinion. It’s not such a hard concept to grasp.
Talha MujahidMember June 19, 2021 at 2:00 am
“it’s not such hard concept to grasp”
I think I’m unable to convey my right question to you.
We should research about the correct time of prayers. As it is commanded by prophet to pray the salah at اول time. So what’s the awwal time for asar?
You’re saying we should help from science to determine the right time. It’s not matter of ijmah which will be determined using Faham. It’s all about a Farz Ibadat.
Just tell us at which time Ghamidi sb prays😆. According to hanfi or shafi???
I want to give a recommendation, please add timing of prayers in any of the website(Ghamidi.tv javedahmadghamidi.org ghamidi.org)which will base on tawatur.
As I’m currently associated with software development field. I’m ready to provide my services free of cost for managing all this task according to geographic locations. The thing I need is timing based on tawatur.
Faisal HaroonModerator June 19, 2021 at 9:34 am
I’ll summarize what Ghamidi sahab has stated in the video shared above and my responses, however I suggest that you go through this material one more time in order understand the crux of it:
A particular time period within a day is called Asr. The third salat of the day should be offered in Asr time. This information has reached us with ijma and tawatur and there are no disagreements on this. On the application level, when we try to determine the beginning time of Asr, there are differences of opinion. Since there are differences of opinion, ijma and tawatur has been broken. Time is a continuum, one person may determine beginning of Asr time to be now, while another may determine it to be a few minutes later. There’s no problem in that. Each one of the two persons can still pray in the ‘awwal’ time according to their own determination based on observation.
In an Islamic state, the state can collectively decide to give preference to one time versus another. If that happens then we should follow their preference. Otherwise we can easily follow the schedule of the mosque that we generally go to. If we don’t have a mosque nearby that we frequent, we can pray at home according to our own preference. Insisting that there has to be a single beginning time decided to the precision of a minute that all Muslims should adhere to is not correct, especially in the absence of clear evidence from God and His messenger SAW.
Nazar MuhammadMember February 7, 2022 at 7:21 am
@faisalharoon kia dono time shafi or hanfi bek wakt thik hein muje zyada english samajh nahi aati urdu me wazahat kijiye
Nabi SAW se Ijma or Tawatur se Asr ki namaz ke 4 raka mile hein or Asr ke wakt hi or us Asr ke wakt ko pata krnee me ikhtilaf he to is me ijma tawatur me koi asar ni parta yahi kehna chah rae hei na ap or ap keh rae hu ke ye scientific kam he ke asr ka accurate time pata krna per accurate time mobile se pata krne ke bad bhi do time mil rae hein ab muje ye btae ke ijma or tawatur walo ko kis per apna itmenaan kr lena chaiye jo kud sooraj se pata ni kr skta or pir scientist b wo ni he accurate applications b double time batate hein ab agar ap kehte hu k dono time sahi hein so technically ap shafi time ko sahee bata rae hu magar hanfio per bina kisi tanqeed ke kio k hanafi time me asr parna bhi shafi time me shamil he or awwal wakt hanfi timeme shamil ni he so ap technically shafi time ko sahee keh rae hu so ye wazeh tor per kahu na ke awwal wakt se e asr per skte hein or awwal wakt ki calculation durust he ta ke koi confuse na hu ab tasdeeq kare kia mene sahee kaha.
Faisal HaroonModerator February 7, 2022 at 1:42 pm
I’m sorry my friend, I have a very hard time in understanding Roman Urdu. Hopefully @Irfan76 sahab will be able to respond to your question.
Nazar MuhammadMember February 8, 2022 at 10:15 pm
السلام علیکم @faisalharoon کیا دونوں وقت شافعی اور حنفی بیک وقت صحیح ہیں مجھے زیادہ انگریزی سمجھ نہیں آتی اردو میں وضاحت کر دیجئے نبی ص سے اجماع اور تواتر سے عصر کی نماز کے 4 رکعت ملے ہیں جو کے عصر کے وقت فرض/واجب ہیں پر اس عصر کے وقت کو معلوم کرنے میں اختلاف ہے تو اس سے اجماع و تواتر میں فرق نہیں آتا یہی فرمایا ناں آپنے اور سائنس کا کام ہے بلکل واضح وقت کا معلوم کرنا پر واضح وقت موبائل سے معلوم کرنے کے بعد بھی دو وقت مل رہے ہیں اب مجھے یہ بتائیں کہ اجماع و تواتر پر رہنے والوں کے لیے کہ وہ کس وقت پر اطمینان کریں جب سایہ اک مثل ہو یہ دو مثل اگر آپ کہتے ہیں دونوں ٹھیک ہیں سو تخنیکی طور پر آپ اک مثل والے وقت کو ہی درست مان رہے ہیں اگر آپ کہتے ہیں کہ دو مثل سو آپ صراحت سے لکھیئے تاکہ کوئی مزید کنفیوژن باقی نہ رہے جزاک اللہ والسلام
Dr. Irfan ShahzadScholar February 9, 2022 at 1:13 am
اجماع ق تواتر میں فہم اور حدیث کے ذریعے سے اجتہاد کرنے سے کچھ معاملات میں کنفیوژن پیدا ہوا مثلا اس پر اجماع ہے کہ جانوروں پر جان بوجھ کر تسمیہ نہ پڑھنا خلاف سنت ہے اور جانور حرام ہے مگر امام شافعی کے اس عمل کے مقابلے میں اجتہاد کیا اور ایسے جانور کا کھانا حلال قرار دیا۔ ایسے ہی عصر کے معاملے میں بھی اجماع تھا مگر سورج ڈھلنے سے کیا مراد ہے یہ ایک مثل سایہ ہوگا یا دو مثل یہاں بھی اجتہاد لے آیا گیا جس کی ضرورت نہیں تھی۔
ایسے ہی جیسے امام ابو حنیفہ کے نماز کو اپنی زبان میں پڑھنے کا اجتہاد کیا تھا۔
یہ افراد کے اجتہادات ہیں۔ جن پر بعد میں لوگوں کی ایک تعداد نے عمل کر لیا تو متواتر متاثر معلوم ہوتا ہے۔ حالانکہ کی امت کی اکثریت کا درست موقف اور عمل آج بھی متواتر ہے۔
Nazar MuhammadMember February 9, 2022 at 1:15 am
@Irfan76 apne kaha ke aksariat yani jo soorj dhalne ka wakt mobile me jaldi huta he asr vahi se he baki sab faham k ikhtilafat se h
Dr. Irfan ShahzadScholar February 9, 2022 at 1:38 am
دو مثل یعنی جس میں عصر کا وقت زیادہ بتایا گیا ہے۔
Nazar MuhammadMember February 9, 2022 at 1:56 am
hanbli malki shafi ye sab aksariat mein hein apne to muje confuse kr dia yani dhai so saal tak log soraj dhalne ke wkt namaz parte the pir hades ki kitabe parne ke bad wo ak misal sae me parne lag gae 🧐🧐🧐
arb mein Asr kb mana jata he do misal sae me 🧐🧐 jaha se lfz aya he
Nazar MuhammadMember February 12, 2022 at 8:23 am
@Irfan76 is baat ki kia mazboot daleel he kia ummat ki ak bari jamaat mutuatir per baki he yani wo jamaat hanafi ke bjae ger hanfi b hu skti he hadees ko hujjat na mnte hue magar kia daleel he ke sham ka wkt do misal e huta he blke ak misal se agaz ni huta
Dr. Irfan ShahzadScholar February 13, 2022 at 3:23 am
To determine this we need to see what Arab used to know about asr time. What time they called asr time.
i dont know u tell me
arab me to hanbli ahle hadees malki hein wo namaz to jse e asr ka agaz huta h tb pad lete he mere kyl se
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