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  • Ghamidi Sahib View On Science In The Quran

  • Nadeem Minhas

    Member February 23, 2021 at 5:45 am

    Please refer me to a source of such information, if it exists.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator February 23, 2021 at 9:21 am
    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 23, 2021 at 8:07 pm

      Thanks Faisal this helps. Still I need more info. There are millions of people, including me who were drawn to Islam because it seemed like through scientific references, Quran proved existence of Allah. Although Ghamidi Sahib did not reject any scientific references in Quran, he did not accept them either. Without scientific proofs Quran remains to be no different than any other book, no matter how good of argument anyone presents to prove Allah’s existence. Without scientific references, Quran is no different than any other soothsaying book full of ancient mythical stories.

      I totally agree in some cases when some scholars stretch the meaning of Quran to fit proven scientific facts, but beyond that there seem to be some clear references to scientific facts in Quran. I wonder if Ghamidi Sahib translates all those verses differently and reject scientific references all together or still accept some. I will have to go verse by verse and check. If all being rejected by Ghamidi Sahib, then it might turn out to be a monumental disappointment from Quran.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator February 23, 2021 at 10:26 pm

    If for you or others the proof of the Quran is in science then there’s no problem.

    However, to say that without scientific references, Quran is a soothsayers book full of mythical references is pretty demeaning – not only for the Quran itself – but also for those who have believed in it for the last 1500 years without scientific proofs.

    Quran verse 30:30 states that the true religion is that of natural disposition (fitrah) that God has instilled into man. Furthermore, the Quran repeatedly uses the three fundamental human sources of knowledge (empirical evidence, intellect, and established history) – especially in the Makkan chapters – to argue for the existence of God, the day of judgement, the prophet, and the scripture. These, by the way are the same sources of knowledge that even provide a basis for science and all other fields of knowledge.

    When we approach the Quran using the same epistemology that it uses itself, it makes such an undeniable case for religion that there’s no room left for any doubts. I can wholeheartedly attest that once Quran is understood from this angle, scientific proofs don’t add anything to one’s certainty about God and His religion.

    For detailed understanding, please refer to the videos in the following discussions. It will require a lot of patience, however, the knowledge and the understanding obtained will be well worth the time and the effort:

    Discussion 37138

    and

    Discussion 30094


  • Ahsan Jalal

    Moderator February 23, 2021 at 11:19 pm

    @Sonnadi
    Check this article from Hamza Tzortzis. He analyzed scientific argument of Quran in very logicla manner. may be it will help
    https://www.hamzatzortzis.com/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 6:09 am

      Ahsan, I I read the article half way. It is a great article still open for further discussion. Unfortunately texting is not an optimum medium to discuss complicated topics. I will try a bit here with one point that may destroy this article.

      The author states that many of the scientific facts in Quran were known far before 1400 years ago.

      1. What is the authenticity of source of his reference when history was not being systematically being captured and preserved at that time. What is the proof that the information is still authentic.

      2. Allah has been sending prophets since the creation of human being. Thus some of the scientific facts may be coming from the knowledge Allah revealed previously.

      3. If prophet copied this information from existing knowledge that means he scoured the Earth, read every tablet written, and interviewed all knowledgeable people from around the World and surrounded himself from the World’s most knowledgeable apeople around him and then wrote Quran will just random references to science in random places in Quran.

      4. Lastly and the most powerful argument that destroys this article… At the time of prophet Muhammad if many of these scientific facts existed, at the same time there were mostly numerous erroneous beliefs were present too. How come none of those erroneous science crept into Quran. Did prophet Muhammad experimented and verified science before choosing only correct science in Quran. It does not make sense. If Quran’s science was copied, there would be mostly and obvious incorrect science in Quran.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 26, 2021 at 7:12 am

      @codename.AJK

      Now that I read the article. It is one of the best pieces of writings I have ever read. Great work. I totally agree with the following conclusion

      —————————

      A New Approach

      So what now? How do we change the direction of the science in the Qur’ān tidal wave that has engulfed Muslim apologetics (more commonly known as daᶜwah in the Muslim community)? How do we transform the narrative? The simple answer is we need a new approach. This new approach is what Professor of Physics and Astronomy Nidhal Guessoum calls a “multiple, multi-level” approach.[52]

      The new approach is based on the following axioms and principles:

      The Qur’ān allows multiple and multi-level meanings.

      Our understanding of natural phenomena and science changes and improves with time.

      The Qur’ān is not inaccurate or wrong.

      In the case of any irreconcilable difference between a Qur’ānic assertion and a scientific one, the following must be done:

      Find meanings within the verse to correlate with the scientific conclusion.

      If no words can match the scientific conclusion then science is to be improved.

      Find a non-scientific meaning. The verse itself may be pertaining to non-physical things, such as the unseen, spiritual or existential realities.

      Mustansir Mir, Professor of Islamic Studies at Youngstown State University, argues for a similar approach. He writes,

      “From a linguistic standpoint, it is quite possible for a word, phrase or statement to have more than one layer of meaning, such that one layer would make sense to one audience in one age and another layer of meaning would, without negating the first, be meaningful to another audience in a subsequent age.”

    • Ahsan Jalal

      Moderator February 26, 2021 at 7:50 am

      Definitely, it is one of the good article on this topic.

      But Ghamidi sb dont agree ot the point of multiple meaning based on Nazm in Quran.

      For your other point that, references and how other theories didnt come in Quran. Atheist generally say may be Prophet Mohammad saw or his companion were clever enough to most logical one.
      Even if authencity is not there, but whole narrative of scientific miracle is destroyed with even single piece from ancient scrolls. Btw in the article he gave references to those historical theories from ancient egypt etc.

  • Nadeem Minhas

    Member February 24, 2021 at 5:28 am

    Thank you both for providing additional information. I will review it soon. Please understand my and many others journey of faith.

    1. Is the book authentic after 1400 years. If yes, then

    2. Is the book from a God a higher being who knows more than any other human being. The only thing that proves that the book is from a higher being is references to scientific facts that couldn’t have been known 1400 years ago, but are proven now. Furthermore, the Quran had to have references to science that is not proven yet to continue to prove to future more knowledgeable generations thay it is a book from a higher being.

    Although there is a chance that the presence of scientific facts in Quran could have been dictated to prophet by a more advanced beings, perhaps aliens or advanced civilization, but then it doesn’t make sense those beings will tell the truth about science and lie about existence of God and everything else in Quran.

    Once faith in Allah and its book is established all other information in Quran makes sense and no matter how unrealistic a statement might be in Quran, it becomes believable. For example, details about heaven and hell, last day, parting of the sea by prophet Musa, and so many other unbelievable things become believable.

    Without the established faith in Allah in the first pkace, everything to a nonbeliever looks like mythical stories in Quran no different than stories in other books of other religions, such as Hindu scriptures.

    Although the overall message of Quran is to the benefit of humanity and of peace and harmony, but such message is the same in many other books.

    Hopefully that makes you understand journey of many current and future Muslims.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor February 24, 2021 at 5:44 am

    If you sign up to sajid hameed’s ISCU on al mawrid institute, we are going through evidences for Quran being divine right now. We have already had maybe 3-4 sessions on this, then you can join the live sessions too إن شاء الله .

    There are many things that prove the Quran to be divine other than science. The person of the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم for example, a man who knows not poetry nor philosophy, and produces a non contradictory book of amazing language over 23 years. Then rearranged it in a way where the sequence is perfect too. And most of it was a reply to people talking so no question about masterfully designing it. This can either be learnt by consulting Arabic teachers and experts, or learning the language yourself.

    The lack of contradiction is one thing. Then the Quran’s own challenge of inimitability is there too. And the بعث في الأميين رسولا منهم concept. That is what the Quran says itself. To say it is just mythology is seriously downplaying it’s literary and philosophical and conceptual veracity, stability, and lack of contradiction.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 6:16 am

      Thanks Shoaib. Please interest me with more such info. The one you referenced, ” no contradiction” , is also scientific references in my opinion. The others you referenced are arguable and subjective.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 7:04 am

      Shoaib, the poetry and philosophy are all subjective and people are sometimes born with such talents. Science is relatively objective than any other method; although not totally fool proof but the best method available for now to prove something.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 7:26 am

      No it is not subjective. It violates the normalcy of people who haven’t ever done poetry or philosophy producing a work like the Quran. Show me one other text like it

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 7:26 am

      How do you propose the people before these scientific discoveries affirmed the divinity of the Quran? How about the sahabah themselves?

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 8:03 am

      Same as believers of all other religions. How do you think they become believers of those religions. Tell me how Islam or Quran is different. Stating subjective and biased opinion, such as it is a great poetry or a great message etc. doesn’t work any better than any other religion.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 8:04 am

      Show me one religion with a book like the Quran. What you are proposing is that the sahabah were blind followers.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 8:10 am

      You are subjectively saying Quran is better. Prove that to a person from another religion and you will fail. I do not know what convinced Sahaba. It can’t be any different from believers of other faith. Also Quran has a great message it confirms previous books and it helps oppressed. That is a great draw for poor, oppressed and people who lost all hope.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 8:12 am

      The veracity of the Quran is in its linguistics that can be confirmed by any Arab. It’s philosophy which can be confirmed by anyone. And it’s consistency which can also be confirmed by anyone.

      As detailed in the article above, both the problem of induction and the issue of the dynamism of science apply. So you would be saying the Quran was false in the 19th century when the Big Bang theory had not developed.

      The Quran says it can’t be copied and you are saying that’s a subjective claim. So the Quran itself can’t argue for itself it seems

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 8:24 am

      Shoaib Quran may be exceptional writing but there are lot of exceptional and unexplainable things in the World. There are people born who are completely blind, but but they can see from their skin. They are people who are blind and when they hear a song they can play instantly on Piano and they can play every song they ever heard. There are people who remember every single moment of their life like a photograph. The question is that what makes Quran special to be considered by a sincere and logical person as a word of God. Do not have to be an absolute proof, but overwhelmingly strong proof. Somethimg better than any other religion or book.

      To me it is science, but Ghamidi Sahib not relying on science may shake the faith of many. Rather then bringing closer, some may be pushed away from Islam.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 8:26 am

      I don’t see how that makes them divine. It is impossible for any human much less one like the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to produce the Quran.

      No other religion has a text like this

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 24, 2021 at 8:42 am

      That means it would be easy to convince atheists and people from other religions that it is a book of Allah, yet this doesn’t work. This is a time of science and people want proofs.

      1400 years ago perhaps poetry or linguistics worked, but now science works. Also, science in Quran seems to be for ever. There is science for all times. Some is proved so far and there is so much more that will unravel in the future until the last day.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 24, 2021 at 8:43 am

      Convincing atheists or anyone is not the measure of the linguistic and philosophical veracity.

      The Quran says it can’t be copied and you are saying that’s a subjective claim. So the Quran itself can’t argue for itself it seems

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator February 25, 2021 at 2:10 pm

    The point that must be appreciated is that the foundation upon which the Quran stands (I referenced in my previous response) is actually more fundamental than science. Science may evolve and it’s discoveries might completely change our understanding of the physical world, but that very basis upon which the Quran stands can never be challenged.

    It’s perfectly fine for an atheist to get attracted to the Quran on the basis of science. Other people might find other motivating factors for their initial interactions. There’s absolutely no harm in that. However, after the initial investigation, in order to make sense of the philosophy of the Quran, the foundation of it’s principles, the very problems that it’s laws address, as well as the overall world view it presents, it’s inevitable that one should dig deeper and understand the Quran from the same perspective that it presents itself from. This can however take time. I also realize that it might not even be everyone’s cup of tea. However, if someone wants to pursue a deeper understanding, in my experience science or any other initial motivating factor is never enough.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 26, 2021 at 6:46 am

      @faisalharoon

      First of all Faisal, I am sorry if I hurt anyone’s feeling. I am a Muslim and a believer in Allah and Quran. I did not mean to hurt anyone’s feeling and reject Quran in any way by saying that “It contains mythical stories and soothsaying”. I meant in a hypothetical manner that if there was no faith in Allah, then Quran doesn’t mean anything.

      Regarding your last answer above, you are right. The approach you are proposing is for scholars and those who dedicate significant part of their life in the study of Quran. This is not possible for most people. I spent several years of my life studying Quran from a different perspective without influence from any school of thought or a scholar, but simple guidance from Allah. If that was the wrong path, there is no right path. If Allah can’t guide, then no one can guide and show the right path.

      I agree different people may find faith in Allah for various reasons in Quran. To me it was science and the overall message of Quran; it felt like truth!

      Regarding your or Ghamidi Sahib’s comments that as science will evolve the Quran may be proven wrong if we try to prove Allah or Quran through science. I do not believe as science evolve all of a sudden Quran will be proven wrong and irrelevant. I believe with evolution in science Quran will become more and more relevant and more proof of Allah will be revealed. But. unless people stop stretching the meaning of Quran and forcefully fitting science; one day we’ll find issues.

      Similarly reading the Quran translation by Ghamidi Sahib, I get a feeling that he is forcefully trying to take science out of Quran where possible. Seems to me that he is trying to translate Quran as 1400 years ago Arabs would have understood…but Quran is for all ages…it is for the humanity; not just Arabs 1400 years ago.

      Similarly I have found the Ghamidi Sahib is some vague area of Quran forcefully try to translate Quran in a different direction than most respected scholars. For example, “In heaven you will get your own spouse…etc.” Although no one knows the truth except Allah, but I do not see any reason how Ghamidi sahib justify a different interpretation.

      Anyhow, please check this website. It is all about science in Quran. Some science easily fits in any meaning of Quran (even Ghamidi Sahib’s translation) and in some cases Quran meaning is being stretched to fit current science. Let me know what you think.

      https://www.miracles-of-quran.com/index.html

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator February 26, 2021 at 9:47 am

      You didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings, so no worries.

      The approach that I proposed is not only for scholars, but as I stated above, it is for anyone who wants to pursue a deeper understanding of the Quran in order to make sense of the philosophy of the Quran, the foundation of it’s principles, the very problems that it’s laws address, as well as the overall world view it presents.

      I did not say that the evolution in science will prove the Quran wrong, and I don’t recall Ghamidi sahab ever saying that either. The point that I was trying to make is that with evolution in science our understanding of the physical world is bound change. If we use science as a basis to understand the Quran, we can never have the correct understanding. It is a shortcoming of human mind that it can’t understand things that are constantly changing, let alone use them as a basis to understand anything else. Besides, there’s no reason to understand the Quran using any other principles than what the Quran uses itself.

      It is incorrect that Ghamidi sahab has tried to forcefully take science out of the Quran. His methodology of interpreting the Quran is published and he has consistently applied the same principles throughout his translation and tafseer. Please take a moment to read it:

      Discussion 1088

      The issue about same spouses in heaven is not about translation or interpretation. That is his inclination about the issue and he has made it very clear as such.

  • Faraz Siddiqui

    Member February 26, 2021 at 9:01 am

    Br Nadeem can u tell us what do u mean by scientific evidence? I read the thread but couldn’t understand what r u calling scientific proofs.

    Quran mentioned

    1. Sun and moon can’t catch each other, 3-400 yrs ago it was confirmed after telescope’s invention

    2. Time is not absolute (story of Uzair AS)

    3. Everything created from water, very recent discovery

    4. Man can not conquer death, yet to be refuted

    Quran mentioned facts for people who were receiving it. If it had mentioned Gravity, atoms, electrons, quantum mechanics or nebulae formation. The people of its time couldn’t have understood or believed in it. If quran,simply, told things understood by Arabs and later confirmed by science is good enough evidence for its divine origin.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 26, 2021 at 8:03 pm

      I agree with you Brother Faraz.

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