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  • Quran 74:11-25 – Walid Ibn Mugheirah

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on March 8, 2021 at 5:50 pm

    Most scholars agree that ayah 11 refers to Walid ibn Mugheirah. This seems to be of great importance since he was a man of poetry and he recognised the Quran’s linguistics and yet denied. If we did not know this from ahadith then we would lose a big meaning and an important part of the context related to this verse. How can we then not use ahadith in our tafasir? Especially when the Quran refers to specific people like this?

    Ahmad Shoaib replied 3 years, 3 months ago 2 Members · 14 Replies
  • 14 Replies
  • Quran 74:11-25 – Walid Ibn Mugheirah

    Ahmad Shoaib updated 3 years, 3 months ago 2 Members · 14 Replies
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor March 8, 2021 at 6:11 pm

    If we do not see the ahadith then we do not get the real thrust behind the ayah. The think is that the Quran is an oral text said in a context. So of course it wouldn’t say ‘walid ibn mugheirah, a master of poetry said…’- because its already known that it refers to him by the primary addresses. We are not the primary addresses so we have to refer to history books and ahadith to know the full context and why this specific man was chosen to be talked about because it introduces the meaning of people of knowledge who fully know the Quran is a miracle because they are well versed with Arabic are denying it

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor March 8, 2021 at 6:11 pm

    here is a discussion I had online that sums this up:

    ‘the point isn’t that there’s a general mentality of this and that, it is that this specific person (given a specific description) denied out of sheer arrogance, while knowing that there’s no way out of calling the Qur’an a miracle. Your interpretation would be “he was arrogant, he thought for a bit, and denied” therefore he gets hellfire. The interpretation we would get knowing the context is “he was the best of the best, but he was also arrogant, he thought of a way to get out and couldn’t figure out any, which shows that this knowledgeable person knew very well how the Qur’an was from Allah. But, he decided to call it magic out of his arrogance, and therefore not only is arrogance condemned, but the miracle is praised, as it wasn’t anyone who couldn’t find a way out, it was the best of linguists at the time”. Do you see the difference?’

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator March 8, 2021 at 6:31 pm

    Quran verses 74:11-25 are clear in their meaning. Besides, Quran doesn’t only consist these verses – it has 6300+ others to convey it’s full message and all it’s majesty.

    What hadith mentions these verses in reference to Walid ibn Mugheirah?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:04 pm

      https://archive.org/details/Tafseer_alkashaf/kshaf6/page/n256/mode/1up . page 256-257

      https://quran.com/74:11/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir

      The point is that the Quran is an oral text within a context. The context and specific people were known by the sahabah but we have to do some extra effort to get the whole picture.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator March 8, 2021 at 7:07 pm

      Are these hadith references?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:15 pm

      The tafasir have the hadith references. Especially ibn kathir

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:07 pm

      Sorry in al kashaf its page 254-255

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator March 8, 2021 at 7:24 pm

      If you find any valid hadith references please post here. This is just for my (and other readers’) information though – the verses don’t require any hadith to convey their message.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:28 pm

      ‘reported by Al-Awfi from IbnAbbas. He (Ibn Abbas) said, "Al-Walid bin Al-Mughirah entered the house of Abu Bakr bin Abi Quhafah and asked him about the Qur'an. When Abu Bakr informed him about it, he left and went to the Quraysh saying,What a great thing this is that Ibn Abi Kabshah is saying. I swear by Allah that it is not poetry, nor magic, nor the prattling of insanity. Verily, his speech is from the Words of Allah!’ So when a group of the Quraysh heard this they gathered and said, By Allah, if Al-Walid converts (to Islam) all of the Quraysh will convert.' When Abu Jahl bin Hisham heard this he said,By Allah, I will deal with him for you.’ So he went to Al-Walid’s house and entered upon him. He said to Al-Walid, Don't you see that your people are collecting charity for you' Al-Walid replied,Don’t I have more wealth and children than they do’ Abu Jahl answered, They are saying that you only went to Ibn Abi Quhafah's house so that you can get some of his food.' Al-Walid then said,Is this what my tribe is saying Nay, by Allah, I am not seeking to be close to Ibn Abi Quhafah, nor `Umar, nor Ibn Abi Kabshah. And his speech is only inherited magic of old.’ So Allah revealed to His Messenger ,’

      Evidently the real thrust behind this ayah was to show that this man knew the Quran was true as he was a great poet and still rejected the Quran. Therefore the message of the ayah is strengthened. A specific person is mentioned for a specific reason that would be known to the sahabh and we have to read ahadith to access it it seems. A strong aspect of the message is apparently lost

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:33 pm

    “He said: “The Quraysh know well that I am among its wealthiest”. Abu Jahl said: “Then say something about him which will let your people know that you condemn and dislike him”. He said: “But what shall I say? By Allah, there is not a man among you who is more knowledgeable about poetry and its composition than me. By Allah, what he says does not resemble any poetry. By Allah, the speech which he utters is sweet and graceful, fruitful at the top, copious at the bottom; it has the upper hand and nothing has the upper hand over it. But let me think about what I shall say about it. Then he said [as reported by the Qur’an] (This is naught else than magic from of old)” -Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi

    The point is that Walid ibn Mughirah was the best of the best when it came to poetry. So when we find out that these ayaat are about him and he could say nothing but it was magic- then the miracle of the Quran is praised which it would not have been if we did not know that this was a man of poetry

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator March 8, 2021 at 7:37 pm

    Are these tales or ahadith (reported narrations of prophet SAW)? Is there any way to verify them?

    ‘Evidently’ is not the correct word choice – it should be ‘supposedly’. If someone wants to understand the Quran on the basis of tales, all power to them! That’s certainly not how God intended it.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:39 pm

      The Quran was revealed in response to certain actions of certain people. So there is obviously a context present. To the primary addressees it would be evident as they are there. But for us we may not have the same effect as we are not there witnessing it in real time. So of course unless we study the history we would lose some meaning.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator March 8, 2021 at 7:47 pm

      What evidence do you have that God ‘requires’ us to have the ‘same effect’ as the original addressees? None. Instead of trying to play God, we need to stick with what God has given us. The words of the Quran relate it’s meaning without knowing all these details, which may or not be true to begin with.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor March 8, 2021 at 7:48 pm

      What evidence do we have that the Quran shouldn’t be read with this context to realise the true purpose of the revelation of certain verses?

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