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  • Definition Of Muslim

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 7, 2021 at 1:55 pm

    why we can not develop a basic definition of a Muslim? Many communities claim that they are Muslims but their believes do not fulfill the basics of Islam mostly like the concept of Khatam Nabiyeen. Why Muslims/ Muslim Umma do not do Ijtihad on a single definition of Muslim so that a line can be drawn between the Basic necessity to be Muslim and other beliefs…

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 7, 2021 at 4:49 pm

    It’s not our domain to categorize people as kafirs. If someone calls himself a Muslim but in our understanding has certain misconceptions, our job is to guide him with empathy so that they might understand their error. Similarly we should listen to their argument with an open mind and reevaluate our own beliefs if they provide us with any valid evidence.

    Hopefully the following video will help:

    https://youtu.be/EGc_btic-zw

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 12, 2021 at 9:59 am

    I m not asking to judge anyone. What if a child ask me about difference between a Muslim and qadyani/ahmedi, what I should tell? It’s a question of identity not taking decision over other faiths… I already listen the video you shared but its not for youngsters

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 12, 2021 at 10:11 am

    Your original question was not in the context of children, however, depending upon the age of a child you can share appropriate information. The same child could ask about the difference in Shia and Sunni. How will you address that? We have to teach our children that such and such Muslims hold some different beliefs from us.

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 12, 2021 at 10:57 am

    My basic question is for a general muslim including children as well… if I may ask if you are a place where another person having claim to be muslim also present and he asked to explain Islam then what will you do? You object and tell your version of Islam? Yes Islam not give us leverage to segregate muslim and non muslim but do Islam allow someone to claim to be a Muslim while denying khatum e nabowat? Infact denying khatum e nabowat is denial of quran itself.

    Secondly in life we define rules and regulations not to cross boundaries agreed to keep life/state in organized way then why we cannot define a definition of muslim? Do we hesitating on doing so giving weight to people claim otherwise… yes let not decide muslim or non muslim but at least give a clear picture to someone to judge himself on some define rule to his own clarity and faith… what if I may ask you do you not know how important to believe in khatum e nabowat to being a muslim? Then why not formulate for those who not knew Islam that much and can be distracted easily by someone because of lack of knowledge. There are a few that go for thier own correctness and a majority follow blindly.

    If as per your reply share appropriate information to the child when asked then why not instead of just information a rule defined to make it clear to anyone asked or not that who is to be true muslim…

    BTW I faced similar problem when I was kid and no one was there to clear me this question. It’s only blessing of Allah who protected my faith and I passed that phase but there are many not even youngsters that are facing such problem… I had studied community of concern closely and they are organized and not left their youth on thier own. They prepared them and ask them to distract normal Muslims kids and youngsters…

    The difference between Shia and Sunni is not question of faith and believe… if a Shia or Sunni present at one place they not preaching different Islam.

    Lastly if you are saying different Muslims have different beliefs then are you sure u r OK if someone go and turn to Ahmedi/Qadyani as after all they are muslim as you speaking? What if Christian and Jew start calling them Muslims as they believe in Allah and their beliefs in rest of the preaching of Islam is different?

    I have not posted question just seak of discussion but to take up to do something for betterment of muslim and serving Islam.

    Only those are entitled to called Muslim who believe in oneness of Allah and Muhammad the last prophet PBUH… that is basic believe and definition of a Muslim…

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 12, 2021 at 12:02 pm

    Thank you for sharing your opinions, but they’re not in line with the message of Islam.

    “denying khatum e nabowat is denial of quran itself”

    Ahmedis interpret certain verses of the Quran differently. They provide evidence for their beliefs from Quran itself. We consider their understanding incorrect and provide evidence for their error, however, they have the right to call themselves Muslims and this is completely inline with the Quran.

    They prepared them and ask them to distract normal Muslims kids and youngsters

    That’s a commendable thing. What keeps us from teaching our youth the basis of our beliefs?

    The difference between Shia and Sunni is not question of faith and believe…

    There are many fundamental differences of belief among Shia and Sunni, as well as other factions of Islam. If you study these differences more academically, I bet that you will find many differences which are even deeper than the matter of finality of prophethood.

    Lastly if you are saying different Muslims have different beliefs then are you sure u r OK if someone go and turn to Ahmedi/Qadyani

    Yes. There is no compulsion in Islam. Even if my own son finds Ahmedi beliefs correct on the basis of evidence, I will explain to him why he’s wrong but in the end it will be his own choice. It is not my domain to make him believe whatever I believe in. My job is to empathetically explain to him what I believe in and why. On the day of judgement I will be held accountable for my deeds and he will be for his, independent of each other’s.

    What if Christian and Jew start calling them Muslims

    That would be a very happy day of my life!

    I can see the confusion you’re facing, however, the Quran is very clear that the basis of accountability for us will be our belief in God, the day of judgement, and good deeds. It even names Christians and Jews amongst others who will be granted paradise (Quran verse 2:62, also repeated elsewhere).

    Anyone can make honest errors in understanding the word of God. When that happens, our job is to clarify that error with proper evidence. Anyone who prays salat and gives zakat is our Muslim brother (Quran verse 9:11).

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 12, 2021 at 2:54 pm

    Respectfully I don’t think u understand the question I asked nor my last reply. I m not advocating to call Qadyani or any other non Muslim Kafir nor I have the capacity nor Allah premised me to distribute certifications for Muslims.

    I really wished that Ghamdi sb may clear my misunderstanding if I’m incorrect or any Scholar that can understand what I m questioning. I have not asked this question for debate or argument but to the answer why a Muslim cannot be defined if Christians are those who believe in Christ, Jewish distinguish by their believes, then why a Muslim cannot be defined in a simpler way.

    You have not replied to my basic question but took the discussion on a very different path, if u really want to help then let me guide why you are opposing a single simple definition for a Muslim that may clear concepts of many and make the foundation of Islam strong? What is the disadvantage of clarifying the basic terminology to be a Muslim?

    I not want to be in a debate but asking the question who truly understand Islam and clarify the question I asked whether it is incorrect or otherwise.

    As per your own profile, you are not a Scholar then why you replying without understanding the essence of the question. Being Moderator, you should facilitate the discussion and not take aside. I m not interested in your views or thinking as you are not qualified to answer the question then why you are replying and making confusion. I already tried to explain. So please ethically and morally you should stop replying and redirect my question to who truly an answer. Thanks…

    For your clarity further replying to your last reply inline hopefully you understand my earlier and current request as described above and further below:

    Thank you for sharing your opinions, but they’re not in line with the message of Islam.

    “denying khatum e nabowat is denial of quran itself”

    Ahmedis interpret certain verses of the Quran differently. They provide evidence for their beliefs from Quran itself. We consider their understanding incorrect and provide evidence for their error, however, they have the right to call themselves Muslims and this is completely inline with the Quran itself.

    This is the full text

    “Yes Islam not give us leverage to segregate muslim and non muslim but do Islam allow someone to claim to be a Muslim while denying khatum e nabowat? Infact denying khatum e nabowat is denial of quran itself.”

    If you believe in Quran then you have to accept it in full spirit not as per your own understanding. One has no right to mold meanings of Quran as they want and, in that sense, I have called denial of Khatam e Nabowat is a denial of Quran (I hope you got my point). This is what I believe but every Scholar of Islam believes including Ghamdi sb and that it is the basic belief of Islam. So my question for you are they incorrect? If believing in Khatam e Nabowat is basic for a Muslim then why anyone who not believe in this has the right to called a Muslim. If they are Muslim then what you call me?

    Ghamdi Sb itself explain the concept of Khatum e Nabowat (below is the link)

    at another place

    You are very generous to reply Qadyani/Ahmedi for correction but you are opposing me that is asking why we cannot clarify the basic belief of Islam by defining the definition of Muslim so that an ordinary Muslim like me know to stop someone when try to attack basic beliefs by telling me the story of Hazart Isa (ES) and their re-appearance. This also explained very well by Ghamdi sb himself and I hope u have listened to him and his clarification about believes of Ibn Arabi.

    If I may ask Do I stated Qadyani/Ahmedi Kafir elsewhere in my question or any of the replies? No, I haven’t said that then why you are taking this position? Or shared link of the video by Ghamdi sb. This you referred incorrectly at an incorrect place as I m not questioning the belief of anyone.

    “They prepared them and ask them to distract normal Muslim kids and youngsters“

    That’s a commendable thing. What keeps us from teaching our youth the basis of our beliefs?

    “The difference between Shia and Sunni is not a question of faith and belief…“

    There are many fundamental differences of belief among Shia and Sunni, as well as other factions of Islam. If you study these differences more academically, I bet that you will find many differences which are even deeper than the matter of finality of prophethood.

    Respected, I have not asked/questioned or ask your guidance and opinion about Shia and Sunni, but let me ask even it is out of the scope of my question and entire discussion. Are basic beliefs of Islam for Shia and Sunni is different? Do they not believe in the oneness of Allah Almighty and Khatem e Nabowat of Holy Prophet (PBUM)? When I am capable to understand Islam, I will study the difference between Shia and Sunni.

    Being a Moderator, you should avoid such discussions and spreading such differences while discussing of basic beliefs.

    “Lastly if you are saying different Muslims have different beliefs then are you sure u r OK if someone goes and turns to Ahmedi/Qadyani“

    Yes. There is no compulsion in Islam. Even if my own son finds Ahmedi’s beliefs correct on the basis of evidence, I will explain to him why he’s wrong but in the end it will be his own choice. It is not my domain to make him believe whatever I believe in. My job is to empathetically explain to him what I believe in and why. On the day of judgement I will be held accountable for my deeds and he will be for his, independent of each other’s.

    Yes, there is no compulsion in Islam but it does not mean that there I no difference between Muslim and Non-Muslims. One should clear that Khatem e Nabowat is the core of the belief of a Muslim and who is denying it will not remain Muslim. Being a Qadyani is not like being Brailwi and Deobandi, it’s a clear change of religion.

    “What if Christian and Jew start calling them Muslims“

    That would be a very happy day of my life!

    Calling not make them Muslims not its not matter of happiness but concern that they are ambushing the identification of Muslim.

    I can see the confusion you’re facing, however, the Quran is very clear that the basis of accountability for us will be our belief in God, the day of judgment, and good deeds. It even names Christians and Jews amongst others who will be granted paradise (Quran verse 2:62, also repeated elsewhere).

    Anyone can make honest errors in understanding the word of God. When that happens, our job is to clarify that error with proper evidence. Anyone who prays salat and gives zakat is our Muslim brother (Quran verse 9:11).

    I m not confused nor distracted and knew what I questioned. May Allah protect us from quoting Quran and Hadith out of context. You may need to listen to Lectures of Ghamdi sb where he explained who will go in the Heavens. If you mean anyone paying Zakat and Prayers are Muslim. You should read Al-bayan for Surah Tubah and context of this holy verse.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 12, 2021 at 2:58 pm

    I think the core issue is that the question you are asking is ‘what is the definition of a muslim?’. The point is that it’s subjective.

    A sincere qadiyani does not think that he is denying the Quran. That is the whole point.

    We can give our definition of Muslim and they can give theirs. They have a right to preach their understanding and we have a right for ours.

    We can say that their belief is unislamic or not in accordance with our understanding of the Quran.

    But as Mr Faisal (I think correctly) pointed out above, surah tawbah makes it clear that zakah and salah are the only two identifiers we are allowed to comment on when it comes to accepting someone as a muslim

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 12, 2021 at 3:23 pm

    Mr. Ahmed thanks for replying but you not read my question fully and understand it. I may differ from what you and Mr. Faisal are defending. Please read Al Mezan by Ghamdi sb, Chapter Imanyat regarding basic pillars of Islam before who you accept as Muslim or not.

    As per knowledge delivered by Ghamdi sb no sincere Qadyani denies what Ghamdi sb explaining for Khatum e Nabowat. It’s the basic point.

    If their understanding not as per our understanding then it should be defined for clarification. Either one of us can be Muslim, both cannot be. As per Quran and as explained by Ghamdi sb, not both can be correct.

    What do you think Ghamdi sb incorrect or Qadyani incorrect?

    Do I have asked what you are replying for

    Please quote any verse of the Quran and Hadith in context not to prove or win an argument

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 12, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    My dear brother, I have done my best to respond to ‘your question’. I don’t have any other purpose or agenda.

    Your initial question assumes that without belief in finality of prophethood someone can’t claim to be a Muslim. Your second response reasserts that claim. In your third response you provide arguments and in the last paragraph you even provide your own definition of Muslim categorically denying those who do not believe in the finality of prophethood.

    In my responses I have only tried to clarify your misconception and have provided you with references from the Quran.

    If I wasn’t unable to respond to your question, instead of getting irritated or emotional about it, you can think about rephrasing your question. The better your question can be framed, the more precise of an answer you can get. If I can’t understand your question and as you stated Ahmad didn’t understand your question either, then there might be something lacking in the clarity of your question itself.

    I suggest that you come up with an objective purpose that an elaborate definition of Muslim shall serve. In my mind neither is there any such purpose, nor is it possible to define a Muslim beyond the definition provided by Quran 9:11 because of varying beliefs in just about everything among the Muslim community. If you only research the matter of finality of prophethood, you will find that even Sufis and Shias believe that Sheikhs and Imams get revelations. There are multiple understandings of the concept of tawheed, the concept of God, the concept of aakhira – you name it! Even if we come up with a definition, it won’t serve any purpose.

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 13, 2021 at 1:59 am

    Mr. Faisal, as I responded earlier Being a Moderator you should only facilitate in discussion not to take aside. You and Mr. Ahmed responded to what you think or understood my question. If you want to respond please reference to some reliable source (reliable source means not your interpretation of Quran & Hadith but some renowned scholar like Ghamdi sb) and scholarly point of view of some renowned scholar Like Ghamdi sb, but instead, you are insisting upon your own knowledge which I object earlier as well with a full explanation. If you have not understood my question then you should redirect me to someone who can understand instead of keeping an argument over and over about the question which I will explain earlier and will try to explain later in this response.

    If you have not no other objective or agenda then you should not respond outside the scope of the question and participate in the discussion with your own thoughts or at least balance your response with some scholarly point of you so some qualified person. As you already agreed that you are not qualified then why you are responding again and again and objecting to my question.

    Respectfully, I don’t know how you are assigned as Moderator to this discussion but I have serious concerns over who you are managing things here. I thought this forum is designed to ask questions to Ghamdi sb or some Scholar to respond in the light of the Quran & Hadith.

    You have not responded to any of my sub-question I asked from my earlier replies either. The basic thing you should do before replying to my questions is first to read about six basic pillars of Islam and for that, I recommend you should first read Al Mezan by Ghamdi sb, Chapter Imanyat. This will give you clarity that what is Iman of a Muslim and not on your interpretation of the holy verse you quoted earlier. Matter of fact, if you are denying these facts then you are denying the teaching of Ghamdi sb itself and you should separate yourself from being a Moderator on this website. So please read above before responding or explaining something solely upon your own interpretation of Islam or the Quran or anything.

    Now pointwise respond to your reply but let me clear the fact first, that I have no intention to hurt feelings of anyone personally or objecting someone’s belief or judge anyone, but to only correct record and guide those whoever able to read my comments.

    My dear brother, I have done my best to respond to ‘your question’. I don’t have any other purpose or agenda.

    Jazak Allah. May Allah guide us all (Amen). Being a Moderator and senior Member of the Community, you should be very careful and to the point in responding or guiding someone. If you are not qualified enough then you should not share your personal thoughts in being guiding someone. If you do not fully understand a thing it does not mean anyone else cannot understand or wrong. Do ever respond with some scholarly reference instead of personal interpretations. Religion is a very delicate and careful matter and only the should expert asked (what I did) and only the expert should respond.

    Your initial question assumes that without belief in the finality of prophethood someone can’t claim to be a Muslim. Your second response reasserts that claim. In your third response, you provide arguments and in the last paragraph, you even provide your own definition of Muslim categorically denying those who do not believe in the finality of prophethood.

    Anyone reading my reply should read first Al Mezan by Ghamdi sb, Chapter Imanyat before judging my replies. Every Muslim should know what are the six basic pillars of Islam. This is not my interpretation but every scholar of Islam including Ghamdi sb and I m refereeing his own book and words to support my argument.

    Lastly, I have not provided my own definition of Muslim but it is part of the Iman of every Muslim (a reference to six pillars of Islam)

    In my responses, I have only tried to clarify your misconception and have provided you with references from the Quran.

    I have not presented my own concept but tried to seek scholarly advice from an Expert in light of his own teachings (Ghamdi sb). Before objecting to my beliefs, with all due respect, you do not have any capacity or authority to say that, you should clear your own in light of the Scholar where you are performing the duty of a Moderator. I have not asked your personal interpretation of the Quran, as earlier I requested you to listen to Al Bayan Surh Tubah before quoting it in argument and explaining it without any expertise on the subject.

    If I was unable to respond to your question, instead of getting irritated or emotional about it, you can think about rephrasing your question. The better your question can be framed, the more precise of an answer you can get. If I can’t understand your question and as you stated Ahmad didn’t understand your question either, then there might be something lacking in the clarity of your question itself.

    I m not irritated nor get emotional but just trying to keep the record correct and within scope by defending with scholarly references so that no one else deviates from the guidance they are actually want to achieve. Yes, no one is perfect but I m pretty sure what I have asked and I will explain at the end of this reply.

    I suggest that you come up with an objective purpose that an elaborate definition of Muslim shall serve. In my mind neither is there any such purpose, nor is it possible to define a Muslim beyond the definition provided by Quran 9:11 because of varying beliefs in just about everything among the Muslim community. If you only research the matter of finality of prophethood, you will find that even Sufis and Shias believe that Sheikhs and Imams get revelations. There are multiple understandings of the concept of Tawheed, the concept of God, the concept of Aakhira – you name it! Even if we come up with a definition, it won’t serve any purpose.

    Mr. Faisal, clearly you understood the question I have asked, as per your suggestion and elaboration explains that it is the Objective and Purpose of my question that people in responding to their search of answers given incomplete, inappropriate, and incorrect answers that they failed to get correct response entire life. The above reply of yours is an example.

    Instead, you should refer to some Scholarly opinion or quoted Ghamdi sb in your response you have tried again to quote the Quran in your own personal interpretation of being a Muslim. Again you have questioned and brought back Shias and even raised questions on the concept of Tawheed and God and Aakhira.

    Being a Moderator on a website that claims to be on guidelines and teaching of Ghamdi sb, you are not even going out of the scope of the question but raising more confusion and questions regarding matters that are not even in discussion or question. Are you really moderating/guiding or assisting someone or you need help and guidance for yourself before even replying to any of the questions asked? Please read first Al Mezan by Ghamdi sb, Chapter Imanyat before replying further, and please stop spreading your own ideology and thoughts in disguise of guidance and help. Give me a favor and let me know how I report and raise concern because respectfully you are going 180 against the teaching and concepts Ghamdi sb teaching and explaining. Before responding to any question, you need serious help. I’m not judgmental here about your beliefs but you should be a follower of Ghamdi sb before answering anything on this forum. (May Allah guide us amen). Please do listen following by Ghamdi sb about Sufi-ism

    and also following

    further

    Finally, the question I asked and its explanation. Even though who is ready my replies so far, now very well aware and clear why I have raised the question and why it is necessary for Muslim Ummah, what I’m requesting

    why we can not develop a basic definition of a Muslim? Many communities claim that they are Muslims but their believes do not fulfill the basics of Islam mostly like the concept of Khatam Nabiyeen. Why Muslims/ Muslim Umma do not do Ijtihad on a single definition of Muslim so that a line can be drawn between the Basic necessity to be Muslim and other beliefs…

    Like to measure anything or to judge or correct/incorrect our understanding, we need a reference, a certain meaning, a reliable source that makes things clear for us and helps us in finding what is least correct and right, we draw or define certain rules and least minimum requirements to come up to become least legible like to measure 1 KG of weight we have a reference 1 KG weight to compare with, we have rules of traffic lights by which we judge if someone crossed Red light to violate a rule. Same like this we need to define a basic definition of Muslim to clarify a person at least minimum level what is correct belief for a Muslim or what is a bare minimum to be a Muslim in accordance of Quran & Sunnah so that he cannot be get confused or misdirected and will remain on the correct side without going in-depth study/research of Islam.

    For the very same reason, I asked why not Muslim Ummah define Muslims to make things clear as it’s not about someone’s belief but it’s about identity and integrity of what a Muslim believes.

    The finality of Prophethood is part of Imanyat of a Muslim (Reference to Al Mezan by Ghamdi sb, Chapter Imanyat), and without acknowledging or believing on it how someone claims to be Muslim? And if someone can then who I protect my identity and my beliefs which is my fundamental right

    Lastly, I questioned why we cannot do Ijtihad on this to make things easier for a common ordinary Muslim to safeguard his beliefs and concepts without going through in-depth research and study which is not possible for every being.

    So Mr. Faisal what wrong with my question? Where is a misconception? And where I have not elaborated myself in the question? Any Muslim understand the importance of Khatam e Nabowat in Iman, meaning o Ijtihad, what else needs clarification?

    I welcome any Scholarly/expert response in light of the teachings of Ghamdi sb not on any personal interpretations and concepts.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator April 13, 2021 at 8:36 am

    You’re absolutely correct that finality of prophethood is a fundamental part of our creed based on our understanding of the Quran and the sayings of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    The point that I have been trying to make is that Ahmadis interpret certain verses of the Quran differently and we consider their interpretation wrong. However, since they call themselves Muslims we have no right to categorize them otherwise. This is my own understanding being a student of Islam, and this is Ghamidi sahab’s understanding as well.

    https://fb.watch/4RlWWZ709y/

  • Zulfiqar Ali

    Member April 13, 2021 at 10:31 am

    Mr. Faisal, have u ever listen about identity theft, its a crime, and no one allowed to do so. What will you do or will you allow me if I stole your identity (your name, father name, entire life history) and use it for myself for any purpose legal/illegal? I m sure your reply will be NO and you will agree that identity theft is illegal.

    If it’s true for an individual then how can you allow someone to stole the identity of an entire nation/ummah? how you allow someone to make False claims upon your faith and believes. You cannot take a stand over it without consensus even it is to allow someone to use your name or religion, you may need to consult with your family, relatives before that. then Mr. Faisal, how you are allowing someone to steal your faith and present it with modifications even you not believe correct? even though I m standing against it as its matter to me if you still generous one any many others.

    It’s not the matter to say anyone Kafir or Non-Muslim but it’s to protect my own identity and segregate my faith and believes for not only me but for coming generations and as being ordinary Muslim to protect what is correct and right. if we leave taking care of what is correct and right then how will someone find the correct path?

    I m fully agree with what Ghamdi sb is saying that we have no authority to call someone Kafir or Non-Muslim or even call a Kafir a Kafir but isn’t our right to stop someone to use our name when they have a different approach or understanding. Why not they called themselves Qadyani or anyone else. Do by calling other than Muslim they will lose their right of living or right of preaching their religion, why they want to keep hiding in the identity of others who have a different approach and are in majority.

    I raised the question to remove this confusion and gray area if any exists so that many of those who not well aware of True Islam and have little knowledge of Islam cannot deviate from the true path. Not everyone has an approach to some reliable source to consult for correction. I have seen many newly Muslims that because of little knowledge of Islam and not consulting Experts in religion lost their paths and earn bad name to Muslims and Islam

    Like a Patient having a painful tooth require to go to a Dentist instead of a Heart Specialist likewise for a query related to Iman or Faith, one should consult an Expert, a Scholar like Ghamdi sb and that is what I m trying to do.

    A Knife can be used to cut fruit and can also be used to kill someone. the blame is not on the knife but the one who is using it and because of this we cannot stop using knives likewise a definition of a Muslim will create clarity of faith for many and helpful in protecting the identity of a Muslim and it should not be opposed if someone uses it wrongfully.

    it’s very difficult to reach the knowledge Ghamdi sb have and confer someone on their misbelieves but defining a definition of a Muslim with Ijtihad (consensus) makes like of a common/ordinary Muslim like me easier. Further, there is no need to invent something new, the definition is already explained in Imanyat, it just needs to be restructured in simple and easy words.

    I hope I have cleared myself more…

    Lastly, there is a difference in Iman and Aqeeda (Creed) you have to listen to Ghamdi sb lecture to get it more clear about it what I have questioned is not about creed it’s about Iman of a Muslim (May Allah guide Us all Amen)

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