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  • Names Of Months And The Lunar Calendar

     Umer updated 2 months ago 6 Members · 57 Posts
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 13, 2021 at 7:58 pm

    Ramadan was supposed to be the harvest month. And then it makes sense that eid ul fitr would be that we give charity from the harvest. Also the names of the month rabi ul awwal means the first spring.

    So isn’t this an evidence that there was a luni-solar calendar before?

  • Munnoo Khan

    Member April 13, 2021 at 8:28 pm

    Ramadan comes at a different time every year because it is the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, unlike the Gregorian calendar, which is based on the solar year.

    The month of Ramadan thus moves backwards about 10 days every year relative to the Gregorian calendar. It means it takes 36 to 36 year for Ramadan to start around the same date. In other words, Lunar calendar has no alignment with seasons.

  • Munnoo Khan

    Member April 13, 2021 at 8:36 pm
    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 8:39 pm

      The issue is that all the months of the year relate to an agricultural setting. Rajab would be the time to sacrifice. Shabaan means when camels disperse to collect water. Ramadan means extreme heat. Shawal was when camels got impregnated.

      So it would make sense that a luni Oskar calendar be used each year to keep in line with agriculture

  • Munnoo Khan

    Member April 13, 2021 at 9:14 pm

    Earth revolves around the sun in 365 days, 5 hours, 59 minutes and 16 seconds. The time our planet takes to revolve around the sun is called a solar year. Gregorian calendar is based on solar year. The Gregorian calendar is so precise that it takes into consideration even 5 hours, 59 minutes and 16 seconds are accommodated by adding a leap year every four year. Hence all the seasons on a particular region on this planet remain in alignment with the rotation of sun.

    On the other hand, the Moon orbits Earth in the prograde direction and completes one revolution relative to the Vernal Equinox and the stars in about 27.32 days and one revolution relative to the Sun in about 29.53 days. 29.53 X 12 = 354.36 solar Day.

    Hence lunar Calendar can never be used to determine seasons.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 9:17 pm

      My entire claim is that it makes sense for this to have been a luni solar calendar. So the lunar calendar would be used for the months and solar is used for seasons. So after three years a different moon would be used. So for example ramadan uses the 9th moon. After three years, the 10th moon would be used for it because the solar calendar is used to keep seasons static since the names of the months are so tied to agriculture

      So Ramadan would be at the harvest moon

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 13, 2021 at 9:32 pm

      When we do some changes to any existing practice we have to determine the benefits of that change. Islam is a simple religion, please keep it simple and do not make things complicated.

      Remember what happened during Gen. Musharraf time in Pakistan. He wanted to use the western idea of day time saving but what happened? People started saying , Musharraf time or the clock time.😀

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 9:49 pm

      But that’s what the names of the months indicate. That the calendar was an intercalculated one. I’ve explained some of the names of the month

    • Subhaan Malik

      Member April 13, 2021 at 9:56 pm

      The issue is that in semitic societies and in Judaism, the calendar which was used was luni solar. The lunar calendar was difficult for determining the actual year, however it was good for determining the start of a month which made it ideal for knowing when to begin to harvest and when to end but in terms of knowing how to calculate the year, the sun would be used as it would show the summer and winter solstice which would determine the length of the year. By using the lunar calendar alone, it is 354 years and the phases are not fully clear and based on this, the alignment of the year would be thrown off by ten days each year. In order to account for this, an additional month was added in by Jews and the Arabs in order to bring it into alignment. It makes sense that this would have dropped out of use considering it would have been done every few years. While the date is important to us in the west, many people hundreds of years ago would not have been aware of the specific time and 1400 years ago, if the alignment was affected by 10 days each year, it would have been a very slight change. This is why the words like Rabi ul awwal and Rabi Ul Thani lost their meaning because society expanded beyond an agrarian society and the harvest moon was not as important.

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 13, 2021 at 10:07 pm

      Agreed, just to add a point that even with solar calendars the seasons are different in different parts of the world. For example, cotton harvesting season in Pakistan is during May – August. Whereas, cotton harvesting season in Australia is during November- January.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 10:19 pm

      So we have to see at what times these months would have been for the Arabs? When was their harvest month?

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 13, 2021 at 10:21 pm

      So, you want to isolate Islam to Arabia only?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 10:24 pm

      The months would have been revealed to the Arabs. So the seasons would align with our Gregorian calendar eg rabi ul awwal would I guess be March. I’m saying that if this is the real calendar (luni solar) then we have to do research of what it actually was

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 13, 2021 at 10:25 pm

      اور بھی غم ہیں زمانے میں محبت کے سوا
      There are other issues in this world other than love! 😏

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 10:26 pm

      Please just answer the question.

    • Ayaan Sabir Abbasi

      Member April 13, 2021 at 11:16 pm

      The months were not revealed to anybody-they were present in Arabia and other parts of the world much before Islam arrived-in fact, the first ever calendar the (Sumerian Calendar) dates back to the Bronze Age. The lunar calendar was also present much before the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) arrived because we no that the Arabs also used to perform Hajj and used to fast in Ramadan.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 11:23 pm

      The point is the names of the months seem to relate to important agricultural times. This would only work if there was a luni solar calendar not if it was purely lunar

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 10:30 pm

      So to confirm you agree with what Subhan said above? That the lunar calendar is an incorrect method?

    • Munnoo Khan

      Member April 13, 2021 at 10:34 pm

      I agree more to his last statement that:

      “and the harvest moon was not as important.”

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 13, 2021 at 10:37 pm

      He is arguing that the meanings of the months lost their original meaning overtime. That the ijma is incorrect

    • Subhaan Malik

      Member April 13, 2021 at 11:22 pm

      In essence, the original meaning was lost when it changed to a lunar only cycle. The names were remnants of what they originally represented and so names like Rabbi Ul Awwal meant first month of spring, Rabi Uthhani meant second month and so on. The actual names of these months was lost and the meaning went too when Arabia expanded as an empire during the Ummayad period. It would be odd to think that the Arabs who made their living off farming would call January “first spring” and February “second spring”. They would have kept these seasons the same in order to make farming easier. If we calculate when Ramadan was based on when the Byzantines recorded the battle of Yarmouk then the Islamic date is Rajab which corresponds to August which the Byzantines had. This would make Shaban in September and Ramadan would be in October during those times. This does seem to suggest at least during those times, Ramadan was during October. It also makes the idea of Eid more interesting because then it would seem that during this period, they would harvest their crops, fast, and then at the end of the month they would celebrate by having a feast. Following this, camels would give birth during this time and it’s well established that camels mate during cooler months and if the pregnancies last around a year then the entire process takes place in winter. This would make sense for shawwal to be consistent with the society of Arabs at the time and then this would be followed by Hajj which would be during the winter which is in line with Qur’an 106:2. By switching to a lunar calendar, the days are not in sync because the actual orbit takes 365 days and the lunar months are 354 days and so you’re 11 days off each year and over time, the months will shift.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 3:42 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 4:07 pm

    Watch from 1:28:21

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 4:17 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 4:18 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 6:48 pm

    If someone does reply please be sure to watch the longer video too to get a proper idea of the evidences.

    All in all this is quite scary as it would mean the Ramadan we are celebrating right now is wrong

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 8:11 pm

    At-Taubah – 9:37

    Arabic

    إِنَّمَا ٱلنَّسِىٓءُ زِيَادَةٌ فِى ٱلۡكُفۡرِۖ يُضَلُّ بِهِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُحِلُّونَهُۥ عَامًا وَيُحَرِّمُونَهُۥ عَامًا لِّيُوَاطِـُٔواْ عِدَّةَ مَا حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ فَيُحِلُّواْ مَا حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُۚ زُيِّنَ لَهُمۡ سُوٓءُ أَعۡمَٰلِهِمْۗ وَٱللَّهُ لَا يَهۡدِى ٱلۡقَوۡمَ ٱلۡكَٰفِرِينَ

    https://youtu.be/gPjv5w4eVBg

    This video talks about what nasi’ means.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 8:15 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 8:15 pm
    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 14, 2021 at 8:17 pm

      At-Taubah – 9:36

      Arabic

      إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّهُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَهۡرًا فِى كِتَٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡهَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌۚ ذَٰلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْۚ وَقَٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ كَآفَّةً كَمَا يُقَٰتِلُونَكُمۡ كَآفَّةًۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ

      The only issue I can see would be that this ayah says that there are 12 months in a year. A leap year would make it 13. Technically these are just accumulated days but practically it makes the year have 13 months

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 10:23 pm

    Watch from 1:02:15

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 14, 2021 at 11:13 pm

    Furthermore surah tawbah is one of the last revelations. How could God allow Ramadan and hajj to be done incorrectly for around 20 years? Unless the ruling was present before

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 15, 2021 at 3:23 pm

    Al-Isra’ – 17:12

    Arabic

    وَجَعَلۡنَا ٱلَّيۡلَ وَٱلنَّهَارَ ءَايَتَيۡنِۖ فَمَحَوۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَجَعَلۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلنَّهَارِ مُبۡصِرَةً لِّتَبۡتَغُواْ فَضۡلًا مِّن رَّبِّكُمۡ وَلِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ وَكُلَّ شَىۡءٍ فَصَّلۡنَٰهُ تَفۡصِيلًا

    Yunus – 10:5

    Arabic

    هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورًا وَقَدَّرَهُۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٰلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأٓيَٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ يَعۡلَمُونَ

    The ayah in surah isra says that the day has signs that we can know the count of years by. This would probably be referring to a solar calendar.

    Whereas the ayah in surah yunus says that the moon has been determined with phases so that we can know the count of years.

    So isn’t this an evidence that a luni solar calendar be used? Or is it just that both calendars are used in the world. I think perhaps both are possible

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 15, 2021 at 4:41 pm

    We also know from documentation that the battle of yarmouk occured in august which Muslims recorded as rajab:

    So what we know is that in 636 August was in the Islamic month of Rajab.

    This would mean that a 7 year difference would result in a 77 day difference. So in 643, Rajab would be May 30th if August 15th is used as a baseline and 4th June if August 20th is used.

    If April is Jamadi Ul Awwal, then May would be Jamadi Ut Thani and then June would be Rajab.

    So the date on the papyrus is accurate and in line with the Hijri calendar.

    So that inscription does not really support the view because if April is Jamadi Ul Awwal then it shows an 11 day shift

    All this would show is by 643 it was a lunar calendar but it was brought in during Umar’s reign

    And the Byzantine record seem to show rajab corresponds to August

    If I’m going based on what it literally says then the date of April 28th in the document corresponds to Jamadi Uthhani making rajab in May, Shaban in June, Ramadan in July

    But this itself cannot be correct either

    Because in 636 Ramadan was in October and there’s not a 77 day difference between July and October

    I would feel that perhaps the month on the papyrus is incorrect because it clashes with the Byzantine record even if we use an 11 day difference

    Yes I believe it was changed. In 636 Ramadan was in October and there’s good evidence for this but by 643 they were not. So the change happened between that time. Or perhaps it was going on in 636 but the difference was only 11 days so by 636 Ramadan was still in October

    It’s inconceivable that Ramadan fell in October twice because it would only happen every 33 years or so in a lunar cycle.

    Courtesy of @Subn2

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 15, 2021 at 4:44 pm

    It also makes sense because October is supposed to be the eighth month and September the seventh. Those are the Latin numbers. But they are month ten and nine respectively. So historically changes like this have happened before also.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 15, 2021 at 5:15 pm

    @UmerQureshi any ideas?

    • Umer

      Moderator April 16, 2021 at 3:37 pm

      We cannot use the etymology to challenge a well-known meaning of a word with clear manifestation after its separates from that etymology and becomes a separate terminology and has been well-known and well-used for generations.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 17, 2021 at 1:33 pm

      The Jews also use this intercalated calendar. Isn’t that interesting since they follow millah ibrahim ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 17, 2021 at 1:38 pm

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 17, 2021 at 1:37 pm

    Also of course we should challenge the etymology here. Rabee’ literally means spring. So over time it is not far fetched to extrapolate that people forgot this meaning over time. For example September and October are months seven and eight. But in our calendar they are months nine and ten.

    So it can’t have tawatur because as we can see here meanings can be lost over time especially when it’s to do with calendars that are not used or paid attention to every day all the time

    • Umer

      Moderator April 17, 2021 at 1:59 pm

      A word can have any literal meaning. But over the time, when a word loses it’s literal meaning in favour of another meaning or adds another meaning to its literal meaning, then it is not linguistically sound to trace back that new terminology to its literal meaning and calling it flawed just because literal meaning was something else. If that terminology has been used with a clear manifestation like for the name of a month instead of its original meaning/rationale behind its name, then the usage of that terminology by the people of language takes precedence over its literal meaning.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 17, 2021 at 2:00 pm

      What is the proof that this change in meaning was deliberate and not just a mistake of early Muslims not being able to intercalate because of the expulsion of Jews from Arabia?

    • Umer

      Moderator April 17, 2021 at 2:03 pm

      Quran uses this months names which implies that their manifestation was pretty clear to Quraish of its time. Therefore, we will use it in the meaning as being used by Quraish and not the other way round.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 17, 2021 at 2:13 pm

      I think it is well known history that quraysh used to intercalate their calendar.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 17, 2021 at 3:41 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 17, 2021 at 3:49 pm
  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 17, 2021 at 3:50 pm

    The actual word is نَسِيْء. It is a term of the Arab jahiliyyah. It was carried out in two ways: firstly, if the intention was to launch an attack on someone, the sacred month would be replaced by a month of allowance and thereby war would be justified; second, in order to achieve trade benefits, the lunar calendar was equated to the solar one by adding a month of kabisah so that hajj would fall in the same season always.This is Ghamidi sahab’s tafsir of 9:37. What is the evidence that نسيء means both of these things. In the article above the research shows that nasi’ was either intercalation or shuffling the months.

    • Umer

      Moderator April 18, 2021 at 2:55 pm

      I cannot comment on the detailed meaning of Nasi. Maybe Irfan Sahab can. But the point being that after revelation of Quran and the way Quran mentions these Haram months, it clearly tells us that these months were well known to Arabs despite being observance of Nasi through addition of kabisa or substitution of months. Even for the sake of argument, let’s say there was some confusion in these months because of this practice, there are narrations which tell us that even that confusion was clarified by the Prophet Muhammad (SWS) himself.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 18, 2021 at 2:57 pm

      Yes so the Arabs would’ve perhaps known that these are the months but over time due to discord and the expulsion of Jews intercalation could’ve halted

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 19, 2021 at 1:59 am
  • Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar April 19, 2021 at 6:52 am

    I have no idea about this matter.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 27, 2021 at 7:36 am

    Let’s think about it like this. Who set the names for these months? If 4 months are haraam by name then that means that they must be divine surely. If so then rabee3 meaning spring would be a divine command

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor April 28, 2021 at 3:14 am

    This is very important. If the contents of this website are true, Umar رضي الله عنه pushed back all Islamic months by two months and all of our festivals since then have been two months early it would see:

    https://www.alim.org/history/khaleefa/umar/14/4/

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 28, 2021 at 3:52 pm
    • Umer

      Moderator April 28, 2021 at 5:25 pm

      But why should we ignore Quran altogether? the way Quran mentions this fact, makes it obvious that months and their actual order was well known to Quraysh. Even if Umar (rta) initiated an official Hijri calendar, this doesn’t mean he changed the order of months and their actual happening. I honestly cannot comment on the validity of narrative mentioned in the link shared above. Will request Hassan Sahab to give his insight as well.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 28, 2021 at 5:29 pm

      I agree that the order of the months would be known.

      I would love comments form Hassan sahab that could elucidate on if the method of the purely lunar calendar we have today has ijma and tawatur. Tawatur being especially important. We can use certain dates like yarmouk etc and we can establish there was a purely lunar calendar at the time of Omar رضي الله عنه . Now was this established also at the time of the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم ? That is the question. And if Umar رضي الله عنه move the dates back by 2 months and 8 days then that would also be an issue.

      So some comments by Hassan sahab would be very appreciated جزاكم الله خيرا

  • Umer

    Moderator May 28, 2021 at 10:04 pm

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