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  • Quran 4:15 And Quran 4:16 – Punishment Of Homosexuality

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on April 30, 2021 at 1:58 pm

    An-Nisa’ – 4:15

    Arabic

    وَٱلَّٰتِى يَأۡتِينَ ٱلۡفَٰحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمۡ فَٱسۡتَشۡهِدُواْ عَلَيۡهِنَّ أَرۡبَعَةً مِّنكُمْۖ فَإِن شَهِدُواْ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلۡبُيُوتِ حَتَّىٰ يَتَوَفَّىٰهُنَّ ٱلۡمَوۡتُ أَوۡ يَجۡعَلَ ٱللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا

    An-Nisa’ – 4:16

    Arabic

    وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأۡتِيَٰنِهَا مِنكُمۡ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَاۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصۡلَحَا فَأَعۡرِضُواْ عَنۡهُمَآۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

    Al-bayan:

    The Qur’ānic words used are: وَاللاَّتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ. The word الْفَاحِشَةَ means “fornication”. This word is commonly used in Arabic to connote this meaning. The verb used with it expresses continuousness and thus has been translated keeping in view this aspect. It is thus evident that prostitutes are being referred to. Since in this case the main offender is the woman, men are not mentioned.

    This is a mention of common perpetrators of this sin who indulge in it as paramours. Since both the man and woman are known in this case, hence both are mentioned. The masculine gender is used here to refer to the dominant partner, as per general linguistic principles.

    My question is:

    Couldn’t one easily look at these same verses and say that the ‘fahisha’ here refers to lesbianism and homosexuality. Then the dual form in verse 16 would also make sense. Because women are already mentioned in 15 so why mention them again in 16.

    Though one could say that 15 is related to not punishing prostitutes or those who don’t deserve it? But why aren’t men mentioned to be confined to their homes?

    Umer replied 3 years, 2 months ago 3 Members · 12 Replies
  • 12 Replies
  • Quran 4:15 And Quran 4:16 – Punishment Of Homosexuality

    Umer updated 3 years, 2 months ago 3 Members · 12 Replies
  • Subhaan Malik

    Member April 30, 2021 at 2:12 pm

    I believe that the punishment for the men could either be house arrest same as the women or it may have been left open for the ruler to have discretion and so whipping would perhaps be included. I think it could be impractical to have house arrest for men as men need to work and have an income, whereas the punishment for women being under house arrest was to essentially stop their actions and/or punish them. So based on this, I don’t think that the punishment would be house arrest per se but no other punishment has been given.

    The previous verse says your women which could imply it’s speaking about homosexual behaviour and the reason why is because the verse 4:16 begins with وَٱلَّذَانِ and there’s the conjunction و which seems to be connecting both the verses and so 4:15 stipulates a punishment for women, 4:16 is connected to that and speaks about two men as shown through the dual masculine form and so if 4:16 is about homosexual men then the verse it’s connected to which is 4:15 could be about women. This may also show the punishment is the same but this is not clear.

  • Umer

    Moderator April 30, 2021 at 3:48 pm

    If verse 15 is to be considered in sense of lesbianism, then why aren’t men mentioned in the very verse? On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that since prostitution is linked with women, that is why women are mentioned and since men are not identifiable in this case, but women are, so women were ordered to be confined. And fornication in general (verse 16) is linked with both men and women, both identifiable, that is why both are mentioned and asked to be chastised. Also in verse 15, the condition of four witnesses can be practically applicable if there is open adultery like prostitution as in a red light district, which is not possible in case of acts of lesbianism and homosexuality.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 30, 2021 at 3:49 pm

      Men also engage in prostitution. So they should be mentioned. What I was saying is 15 is about lesbianism 16 about homosexuality

    • Umer

      Moderator April 30, 2021 at 3:53 pm

      Even in today’s time, women are the ones who are linked with prostitution as a business. The ratio is still significant as compared to men.

      If 16 is about lesbianism then 15 shouldn’t have included women again. And how can four witnesses identify lesbian culprits, while no such requirement is there for homosexual culprits?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 30, 2021 at 3:55 pm

      Wait hold on. I’m saying that men go to prostitutes. So they are committing a crime by going to prostitutes. So they should be punished for this.

      15 is related to specifically women.

      The Arabic of 16 could imply both men or women or just men.

      It makes more sense that one ayah be related to women and the next just men rather than one ayah being related to just women then another for both men and women

    • Umer

      Moderator April 30, 2021 at 3:58 pm

      Men are committing crime indeed by going to prostitutes. But in prostitution, men are hard to identify, while women can be identified easily, and in addition to that, those women are not only committing zina, they are also committing fasad fil arz. Men going to prostitutes, if identified, will be dealt-with accordingly as culprit of Zina.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 30, 2021 at 3:59 pm

      I don’t think prostitutes are going to be punished with the punishment for fasaad fil ard though. Because they only get half punishment for zina anyway.

      Even if men are hard to identify the prostitutes can identify them.

      The point is the men are committing a crime and should be punished

    • Umer

      Moderator April 30, 2021 at 4:02 pm

      And who said they shouldn’t be?

      These were provisional verses, later abrogated with verses on Fasad fil arz and those on Zina punishment.

      And prostitutes were actually punished for crimes of fasad fil arz and that of Zina by Prophet (sws).

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 30, 2021 at 4:03 pm

      So why did ayah 15 mention only women then 16 mention both men and women. What was the point?

    • Umer

      Moderator April 30, 2021 at 5:09 pm

      15 relates to confinement of prostitutes through verification of four witnesses, while 16 relates to individuals other than prostitutes (both men and women) who are involved in such relationship, but are not part of prostitution business. First crime, in addition to zina, is also commitment of fasad fil arz while the second one relates to only commitment of Zina.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor April 30, 2021 at 5:10 pm

      How many witnesses are required for the punishment in 16?

    • Umer

      Moderator April 30, 2021 at 5:18 pm

      Since it was a provisional arrangement, so none at that time, but verse 16, when read carefully, do give us a hint that such a relationship should have been well known and they both should repent one punished, which means admission of guilt. But later on when proper law was revealed; in case of tohmat, four witnesses are required to initiate the proceeding.

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