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Concept Of Hell As Evidence For Torah Corruption?
I would start by saying that Ghamidi Sahab believes that only history of People of the Book is corrupted but the Holy Books are intact.
Issue is that in Torah, there is no proper concept of Hell that is shared by Christianity and Islam. Word that is used in Torah refers to the grave according to the Jews.
I can’t imagine that Allah did not explain the important concept of Hell to Jews until Injeel was revealed years later.
Is this not evidence that Torah is corrupted, not just in history, but in religious concepts as well?
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Concept Of Hell As Evidence For Torah Corruption?
updated 2 years, 6 months ago
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That’s very interesting!! I didn’t know Ghamidi sahab’s view is that bible isn’t corrupted but history is. Please share any videos or articles u can
Secondly, I think Jews do believe in hell, they even define it as having 7 different sections. Although there’s a spiritual twist to it. Over the many ages, there’s been lot changes is the meaning of heaven and hell in Judaism.
Here’s an article from website chabad.org. It’s an authentic Jewish teaching website for common folks & Jews alike
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm
Also share ur source regarding Jews not believing in hell.
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Refer to 2:35, this is the view of Ghamidi Sahab of history corruption but holy books being intact.
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@Sid Yes I am aware of the views of the Jews. Problem is that it doesn’t make sense that concept of Hell or even Paradise doesn’t appear in the Torah. It’s not written in there. Which is a big deal in my opinion and there are many Jews also who don’t believe in Hell at all. It’s all speculation and interpretations of their scholars but nothing concrete in the scriptures.
If Ghamidi Sahab is correct in the idea of no serious corruption in the holy books (only history) then how did Jews go for so many years without a proper concept of afterlife? There is a mention of Hell-like place in the Psalm and Book of Daniel centuries later but even that is just a brief mention of Hell, there is no proper description.
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Here is an example of article of Jews not being certain of Afterlife.
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Thank you
The article I shared and yours both share Gennihom. But it’s also true that it seems concept of hell doesn’t appear to be central in torah. Common sense say it should be just like in Quran
Does the Quran mention hellfire for Jews when it talks about their sins?
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But imagine if the Qur’an had no mention of Hell and we had to rely on Hadiths and Tafseer to see its idea? That would be strange and that is the case of Jews it seems.
Qur’an rejects the Jewish concept of their Gennihom being “for a few days.” and mentions Hellfire for the every sinner, including Jew or not.
“And they say, “Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days.” Say, “Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?” Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him – those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.” – Qur’an 2:80-81
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Yes, that’s true. Gennihom is for 12 months maximum but no one will stay for whole 12 months so in reality it’s 11 month +\- few days
Quran does say hellfire for Jews and others(May Allah save us all from hell fire)
If Ghamidi sahab is saying then he must have very good evidence for that.
Unfortunately, I do not have an answer. Let’s wait for some other brother/sister to enlighten us
Thanks for bringing up an interesting point
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Umer sb has in detailed discuss corruption in old books. Refer to these threads
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This is the view of Abdus Sattar Ghauri though, not Ghamidi Sahab.
And you linked this thread as your second thread. You may want to correct that.
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Abdus Sattar sb was a senior member of Al Mawrid. I dont find any reason to not accept his work.
The link has been corrected.
you may find following video helpful
https://youtu.be/hhqX9cOhZE4 -
Good.
I assume Ghamidi Sahab is aware of this work which begs the question as to why he claimed in the video (above I mentioned) that the Taurat/Injeel are “untouched”. Abdus Sattar made it clear in the links you provided that their modern versions are far from untouched or in perfect shape, just that most of content does align with our teaching of Allah’s religion despite much corruption.
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Salam..
If you only would’ve read & contemplated surah maryam from 75th ayah.
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﷽
Some Assumptions are sinful, These kind of assumptions makes an environment which become a narrative, and later on it causes harm or transgression to community as whole, Scholars and learned should make clear truth.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اجْتَنِبُوا كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الظَّنِّ إِنَّ بَعْضَ الظَّنِّ إِثْمٌ ۖ
O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
-Quran 49:12.
وَتَرَىٰ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُمْ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَأَكْلِهِمُ السُّحْتَ ۚ لَبِئْسَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ ﴿٦٢﴾ لَوْلَا يَنْهَاهُمُ الرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ عَن قَوْلِهِمُ الْإِثْمَ وَأَكْلِهِمُ السُّحْتَ ۚ لَبِئْسَ مَا كَانُوا يَصْنَعُونَ ﴿٦٣﴾
And you see many of them hastening into sin and aggression and the devouring of [what is] unlawful. How wretched is what they have been doing. (62) Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing. (63)
-Quran 5:62-63..
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What jahannam is?
is it a place of what? we don’t know, but what it is referred commonly as, Fire ( النار,), and blazing fire (جحيم)
and if you would read, then prophet ﷺ usually talked about fire.
And jahannam is not used frequently
( on doing a search نَّارَ have 1463 search results in hadis check here
and jahannam have only 268 results and most of them are similar hadis. check here
So what you think is there proper concept of hell in islam?
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and What is eternal punishment??
People will inherit what they assumed while doing wrong things.
أَفَرَأَيْتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ بِآيَاتِنَا وَقَالَ لَأُوتَيَنَّ مَالًا وَوَلَدًا ﴿٧٧﴾ أَطَّلَعَ الْغَيْبَ أَمِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا ﴿٧٨﴾ كَلَّا ۚ سَنَكْتُبُ مَا يَقُولُ وَنَمُدُّ لَهُ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ مَدًّا ﴿٧٩﴾ وَنَرِثُهُ مَا يَقُولُ وَيَأْتِينَا فَرْدًا ﴿٨٠﴾ وَاتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ آلِهَةً لِّيَكُونُوا لَهُمْ عِزًّا ﴿٨١﴾ كَلَّا ۚ سَيَكْفُرُونَ بِعِبَادَتِهِمْ وَيَكُونُونَ عَلَيْهِمْ ضِدًّا ﴿٨٢﴾
Then, have you seen he who disbelieved in Our signs and said, “I will surely be given wealth and children” (77) Has he looked into the unseen, or has he taken from the Most Merciful a promise? (78) No! We will record what he says and extend for him from the punishment extensively. (79) And We will inherit him, what he mentions, and he will come to Us alone. (80) And they have taken besides God, deities that they would be for them honor. (81) No! Those “gods” will deny their worship of them and will be against them opponents. (82)
-Surah Marayam.
eternal punishment for disbelieving in god is there because they turned away from the Eternal (ٱلْمُهَيْمِنُ, ٱلْصَّمَدُ), and turned towards created things with assumption that they will be source of Honor for them eternally. that’s why the example is given in above quote.
Similar is the case for those jews. what they said? ‘fire will not touch us except few days? and we will be in heaven eternally?
and the best of report is report of Book of God. فَإِنَّ خَيْرَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ
قُلْ إِن كَانَتْ لَكُمُ ٱلدَّارُ ٱلْـَٔاخِرَةُ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ خَالِصَةً مِّن دُونِ ٱلنَّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُا۟ ٱلْمَوْتَ إِن كُنتُمْ صَـٰدِقِينَ وَلَن يَتَمَنَّوْهُ أَبَدًۢا بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ عَلِيمٌۢ بِٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ
Say, “If the home of the Hereafter with God is for you exclusively and not the people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful.” But never will they wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And God is Knowing of the wrongdoers.
-Quran 2:94
Salam..
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Response shared by Farhan Saiyed Sahab (@Farhan ):
“To sum up the different views of a Jewish version of “hell,” I would say:
1- We don’t go straight to hell. All those who have died, Jewish and non-Jewish, wait for a final messianic kingdom, resurrection of the dead who were good in life.
2- We receive immediate Judgment and get an express train to Gehinnom, a Jewish equivalent of hell or the Olam Habah, the Jewish equivalent of heaven.
3- Spend twelve months to decomposes and atone in Gehinnom, during which you do not burn in the fires of Abraham if your loved ones say Kaddish. Clearly this belief was a way to get loved ones to say Kaddish. No person is said to be so bad as to need the full twelve months, which is why traditional Jews only say Kaddish for eleven months, but we say it for twelve. Our Kaddish is not based on a fiery detention center.
4- Dead is dead. There is no afterlife. It was this 19th century Reform rationalist belief that eliminated “m’chayay maytim” (resurrection of the dead) in our prayerbook and replaced it with m’chayay hakol (that God is the one who gives life to all).
As for that warm place beyond this one, for punishment and time to think about one’s misdeeds, Jews do not go to Florida. The first one that comes to mind is Gehinnom, which is named for a real valley south of Jerusalem today called “wadi al rababah” – “the accursed valley,” because there child sacrifices to the pagan God Moloch are said to have taken place.
Who goes there automatically? Adulterers, the unchaste, idolators, prideful people and hypocrites, people with anger issues, unseemly speech and my favorite, those who follow the advice of their wives!
What keeps you out? Philanthropy, visiting the sick, reciting the Shema and observing Shabbat.
And who is exempt from Gehinnom, our Jewish version of hell? Those who live in poverty, those who suffer from intestinal disorders and ulcers, and those who are pressed by their creditors… in other words, those whose lives are a living hell.
2- There is a place called Sheol, mentioned in the Torah. It is a dark, ethereal, and ghost filled placed, first visited by Israel’s first king, Saul.
3- In the Book of Daniel, the last book of the Torah to be canonized in our Jewish Bible, Daniel 12:2 states: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, andsome to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence. I’m not sure where that takes place, but it doesn’t sound good.
The tradition is ambiguous, at best. And even though Reform Judaism through the years was quite negative about a world to come, the Reform Rabbi’s Manual has included many passages indicating that the traditional belief remains. On Wednesday at the cemetery, I included the following passage for Rabbi Rappaport to read at the burial:
“The dust returns to the earth as it was; the spirit returns to God who gave it. It is only the house of the spirit which we now lay within the earth; the spirit itself cannot died. Receive in mercy, O God, the soul of our departed.
Grant him that everlasting peace which you have prepared for us in the world to come. Though no human eye has seen, nor ear has heard, nor mind has grasped it, still it is our sure inheritance and everlasting portion. “
Over time, more emphasis has been placed Jewishly on the immortality of the soul and less on resurrection of our physical bodies in a messianic age. For Reform thinkers, such as the great philosopher Hermann Cohen, we should focus on our immortality as a people, rather than as individuals. Some 19th and 20th century philosophers, like Ahad Ha-Am, actually looked upon a belief in the immortality of the soul and an afterlife as a weakness. In 1885, the Pittsburgh Platform of American Reform Judaism rejected resurrection, heaven and Gehinnom.
Ultimately, there are many Jewish views of heaven and hell and the afterlife. Many of those views were born in response to social, economic, political and philosophical beliefs of the times. Often we most strongly believed in an afterlife when this life was too hard to bear. The more intellectual and comfortable we became, the less these issues seemed to concern us.”
Full Article at:
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In the same article you shared, it is written:
“But, there is no question from Adam to God about what happens after we die? Eternal life is never mentioned in Genesis, or for that matter in the rest of the Torah.“
So the concern still remains. Did Musa (AS) and Bani Israel spent centuries, not knowing about Heaven and Hell until Book of Daniels (centuries later) came and explained it? (Provided the Torah has no major changes as Ghamidi Sahab claims?)
Also the information you shared in article gives point of view of modern Jews, because they can look at Tanakh as a whole. Modern Tanakh did not exist in Musa’s (AS) time, all they had, assuming, at the time was Torah and Torah has no mention of Heaven and Hell as mentioned in the article. Now what?
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This question is in the queue. Hopefully we will get Ghamidi Sahab’s response specific to this question.
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I feel honored. Thank you for putting my question in the queue.
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You will find following video helpful from 00:56:30 to 1:12:47
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Sadly the video doesn’t change much. Ghamidi Sahab just clarified his same old point again. The idea that the holy books have “minor changes” which happens only due to “translations of original text and so on”. Common Sense suggests that such changes can’t lead to removal of major concepts of Hell and Heaven and if it can then no one can claim Torah is free from major changes which Ghamidi Sahab is claiming.
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In recent Q&A Session with Ghamidi Sahab on Questions selected from ASK GHAMIDI Platform:
For answer to your question, please refer to the video below from 0:56:19 to 0:59:43
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Thank you for taking the time to present this question to Ghamidi Sahab. @faisalharoon
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