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Sufism: Where Do We Draw The Line?
Aslamu Alaikum,
I have listened to various videos of Ghamidi Sahab about Sufism and just had one question related to it that I feel was not answered in the videos.
Ghamidi Sahab admitted to some sort of scientific reality that exists within the domains of Sufism since it is also repeated in other religions such as Budhism, etc. He also stated that he has experienced certain things in his personal life that cannot be explained by the current knowledge of physical sciences. He further went on to state that according to him some of teachings of the spiritual aspect of Sufism may be taught scientifically in the coming years.
So my question is, as someone who is striving to understand the reality of spirituality/Nafs/Soul, where do we draw the line so that we do not cross the boundaries of Islam. Especially in today’s world where there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding, how can we practice the spiritual aspect of Sufism without transgressing Islamic boundaries?
Thank you in advance!
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9 Replies
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Sufism: Where Do We Draw The Line?
updated 2 years, 6 months ago
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Personal experiences exist in all forms of spirituality in all religions and have been experienced since the dawn of human civilizations. There is no question of morality in these experiences either, absolutely immoral acts have been used to attain spiritual enlightenment. Most recent example is of Osho Rajnish
First and foremost thing is to understand that reality of Nafs or soul will never be revealed to man. The spiritual masters of all major religions have claimed to know reality of soul and its relation to God but their answers are so diverse that you have to conclude that they are all wrong. Beside Allah clearly said that Soul is from Allah’s Amar and man is not given that knowledge (They ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the spirit. Say, “Its nature is known only to my Lord, and you ˹O humanity˺ have been given but little knowledge. 17:85)
Secondly, there is good amount of spiritual experiences that can be repeated in lab using psycholedics like LSD, Psilocybin etc. This shows that brain creates these “experiences” in response to certain stimuli either by meditative practices or using drugs.
Lastly, muslim sufi litrature is nothing but an imitation of greek mythology, Wahdat ul wujood, wahdat ul shahood, alam-e-Misal, Tanazullat-e-Satta. They used philosophy of Aristotle, Plato, Plotinus and gave it an islamic color. All conjecture and without any basis / evidence from Quran or sunnah.
The real problem is to understand and identify the connection of the metaphysical (soul/ultimate reality) to physical (human brain and emotions) so far there’s no conclusive evidence and i do not think there ever will be. Because we can only know the physical and metaphysical will remain out of our reach because we r bound by laws of physics
This is the reason that Quran never put forward any claim of “personal experience or spiritual experience” as proof of Allah’s existence or divinity. It always asked us to ponder in ourselves and the world around us
be the most moral person outside and have the deepest possible connection with Quran. This is how sahaba practice their faith, pure and simple.
Learn Quran and basic hadith so u know the boundaries yourself. Avoid notions like Tauheed of people and tauheed of ulema etc, aspects of Ilm-e-ludani, hadiths narrated from dreams, spiritual/sufi tafseer of ayahs that the words of ayah do not allow
This is my understanding after spending sometime in reading sufi literature
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Thank you sharing your thoughts brother. You mentioned that some of the spiritual experienced were repeated in a lab with LSD, etc. Are you saying that the spiritual experiences that some of these people are having are merely delusions?
Also, not all forms of knowledge exists in the Quran. Just like scientists are able to make new discoveries in the physical world why can’t some people learn about realities of Nafs? And if not then how can we explain the reality of black magic? I understand if someone is trying to redefine Islam then we would draw a line there but if we don’t stop ourselves from learning science why would we stop ourselves from learning more about the Nafs if our end goal is to bring ourselves close to Allah.
P.S: I am not arguing your point. Just expressing my own thought process so that perhaps you can correct me if I am wrong. Thank you brother!
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Brother Tariq, delusions are simply classified as false beliefs or beliefs without physical reality
What I was trying to say that meditative practices produce similar effects like psychedelics which means that these practices do not open doors to any new reality but a “created” reality by the brain. For e.g. Hindu Buddhist or Muslims meditation or muraqiba will show a created reality relevant to their background and knowledge. Like a Hindu will never see Jesus or saint Jerome or muslim will never see a rabbi or budha.
We learn science by experiments and experience with physical matter, it can tested and re tested by anyone anywhere. Can we learn about the nafs in same way? Absolutely not. Everyone everywhere explains and experience it differently.
You can learn about ur nafs by contemplating ur feelings, understanding attraction to sin and repulsiveness to good, adopt and train ur nafs to do good. Train nafs to be obedient to Allah and obedience is the only way nafs can become nafs-e-mutmainna. Understanding reality of nafs to get close to Allah is a misconception. This is my opinion and it could be completely wrong.
Lastly, I didn’t understand ur argument about black magic
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Thank you for your input brother.
The point I was making is we know that the knowledge of black magic exists even if the details of it are not mentioned in the Quran. So why can’t knowledge of the Nafs exist regardless of whether it exists in the Quran or not. Knowledge of science doesn’t exist in the Quran either (other then some signs) but it didn’t stop us from practicing it.
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Knowledge of the physical world can exist outside the Quran, absolutely true. We access that knowledge via science, also true
Knowledge of nafs exist outside quran, also absolutely true. But how do we or how can we access it so it becomes as confirmatory as science? Like science meaning, experiments will produce same results everywhere anytime time without respect to who’s doing the experiment.
I do not know any such method. What do you think?
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I understand. Based on the content I have viewed by Ghamidi Sahab, he believes that in the future it will become scientific enough to be taught in schools and I agree with that opinion as well.
I have also listened to multiple other scholars who believe that the method of meditation is scientific but it is abused by a lot of Sufi teachers and teachers of other faith that use it to devise new religious beliefs (similar to how scientists use science to deny religion in a way).
I understand that it is a very hard topic to grasp though but definitely requires further exploration. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.
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yes brother, meditation is very good to increase focus, manage stress, find deep peace with ur self but it can teach nothing about any reality beyond this physical realm.
it is offcourse scientific. There r fMRI and EEG studies on buddhist monks in deep meditation. However, the results people claim from meditation are not scientific
if u believe that meditation can open doors to the metaphysical world then u have to believe other claims too. for e.g. seth talk or R-one, these group claim to go in meditation and then a metaphysical being come and talk to them about past and future. Another group can meditate and find out about their past lives.
Yes, unfortunately our sufis have manipulated religion a lot
yes, it will be scientific one day but that day is not gonna come in our life times because we still do not have anyway to connect physical with metaphysical.
I enjoyed our discussion, may Allah help you and I find what we r looking for
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For answer by Ghamidi sahab, please refer from 44:56 to 48:18
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Thank you brother! Really appreciate it
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