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  • Islamabad Hindu Temple

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on July 16, 2020 at 4:15 am

    Al-Ma’idah 5:2

    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لَا تُحِلُّواْ شَعَٰٓئِرَ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا ٱلشَّهۡرَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ وَلَا ٱلۡهَدۡىَ وَلَا ٱلۡقَلَٰٓئِدَ وَلَآ ءَآمِّينَ ٱلۡبَيۡتَ ٱلۡحَرَامَ يَبۡتَغُونَ فَضۡلًا مِّن رَّبِّهِمۡ وَرِضۡوَٰنًاۚ وَإِذَا حَلَلۡتُمۡ فَٱصۡطَادُوا۟ۚ وَلَا يَجۡرِمَنَّكُمۡ شَنَـَٔانُ قَوۡمٍ أَن صَدُّوكُمۡ عَنِ ٱلۡمَسۡجِدِ ٱلۡحَرَامِ أَن تَعۡتَدُواۘ وَتَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى ٱلۡبِرِّ وَٱلتَّقۡوَىٰۖ وَلَا تَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى ٱلۡإِثۡمِ وَٱلۡعُدۡوَٰنِۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَۖ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ شَدِيدُ ٱلۡعِقَابِ

    English – Pickthall

    O ye who believe! Profane not Allah’s monuments nor the Sacred Month nor the offerings nor the garlands, nor those repairing to the Sacred House, seeking the grace and pleasure of their Lord. But when ye have left the sacred territory, then go hunting (if ye will). And let not your hatred of a folk who (once) stopped your going to the inviolable place of worship seduce you to transgress; but help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression, but keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

    English – Sahih International

    O you who have believed, do not violate the rites of Allah or [the sanctity of] the sacred month or [neglect the marking of] the sacrificial animals and garlanding [them] or [violate the safety of] those coming to the Sacred House seeking bounty from their Lord and [His] approval. But when you come out of ihram, then [you may] hunt. And do not let the hatred of a people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-Haram lead you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

    English – Transliteration

    Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola tuhilloo shaAAa-ira Allahi walaashshahra alharama wala alhadya walaalqala-ida wala ammeena albayta alharamayabtaghoona fadlan min rabbihim waridwananwa-itha halaltum fastadoo walayajrimannakum shanaanu qawmin an saddookum AAanialmasjidi alharami an taAAtadoo wataAAawanooAAala albirri wattaqwa wala taAAawanooAAala al-ithmi walAAudwani wattaqooAllaha inna Allaha shadeedu alAAiqab

    English – Yusuf Ali

    O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment.

    If shirk is the greatest sin then how can we allow or help other mad hand build their temples in our religion?

    Ahmad Shoaib replied 3 years, 7 months ago 7 Members · 118 Replies
  • 118 Replies
  • Islamabad Hindu Temple

    Ahmad Shoaib updated 3 years, 7 months ago 7 Members · 118 Replies
  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 16, 2020 at 8:08 pm

    When Quran discusses shirk, it is in the context of those pagans who had taken partners with God as their religion without any basis. To my knowledge that’s not the case with majority of human beings today. Even those who are mushrik in our eyes (including hindus) actually insist that they are monotheists. In my understanding, they do commit shirk, but they’re not mushrik. Just like in the Quran, we see that God comments upon the shirk committed by the Christians, but it never calls them mushrik. In fact it offers glad tidings to those Christians who are sincere in their faith and do good deeds. Also please consider Quran 22:40 where God claims that in all places of worship, including churches, synagogues, and temples, God’s name is called extensively.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 23, 2020 at 11:55 am

      Faisal bhai,

      Are you saying that Qur’an only calls those pagans in 7th century Arabia as mushriks, and the mushrik term doesn’t exist/applicable anymore in current world ? Please let me know if I understood you correctly.

      If I do understand you correctly, are we saying that those Qur’anic verses which talk about not marrying the Mushriks, don’t apply anymore ?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 23, 2020 at 8:18 pm

      I think I am very clear in what I have stated above. And as I have alluded to before, I don’t find myself qualified enough to know what applies on others and what doesn’t.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 23, 2020 at 9:31 pm

      I am sorry I couldn’t understand your point still. There are two possibilities.

      1. Qur’an only referred to 7th century Arab Pagans as Mushriks. All the rules which Qur’an verses say about dealing with Mushriks only applied to the 7th century Arab Pagans and are not applicable anymore in current world polytheists. It would mean that the verse is not eternally applicable.

      OR

      2. When Qur’an referred to people as Mushriks, it referred to ALL those people who commit the act of shirk, and for all the time.

      I think only one of the two options can be correct, both can’t be correct at the same time. So, I requested to clarify your position, which option/interpretation do you accept ?

    • Umer

      Moderator July 24, 2020 at 10:44 am

      The ones who adopt polytheism as a religion are doing Shirk but whether truth has been conveyed to them completely or to what extent, we have no way of knowing it. That’s why Quran calls the ones Kafir who after completion of proof still insist on polytheism. Polytheism is wrong, but is still subject to Dawah (preaching), however, the same polytheism after completion of proof by the prophet (Rasul) Himself becomes a target of divine punishment.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 16, 2020 at 8:17 pm

    The other point is what Ghamidi sahab has stated in reference to the formation of the state of Pakistan. It is a nation state – which means that the state is owned by the nation, and every person is an equal citizen of the state. When we say ‘how can we allow or help’, we are assuming that we have the right to allow or help. In a nation state, we don’t. If the government helps in building places of worship for any religion, they must do it for all.

    https://youtu.be/y7TgvlTEv9U

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor July 16, 2020 at 11:00 pm

    So in a personal capacity what can be said about donating to these projects etc

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 16, 2020 at 11:14 pm

    I can only share with you my understanding in principle. For personal capacity each person can decide for themselves just like we decide what other projects to support with our money.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor July 17, 2020 at 3:51 am

    But according to this verse can we say that we should not spend money on these matters ?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 17, 2020 at 8:59 am

    Again that’s for you to decide. Will you hold back your money from building a mosque for a different sect of Islam that you think is involved in committing shirk?

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor July 17, 2020 at 9:00 am

    I would think that this ayah prohibits it

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 17, 2020 at 9:05 am

    And that’s perfectly acceptable. At the end of the day, we just have to make sure that any action or inaction on our part towards others is justifiable in front of Allah on the day of judgement.

  • Fayyaz Shah

    Member July 18, 2020 at 10:25 pm

    Following verses are also somewhat relevant to the topic. Allah has allowed them to worship how they chose to, who are we to stop it.

    وَلَوْ شَاء رَبُّكَ لآمَنَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ كُلُّهُمْ جَمِيعًا أَفَأَنتَ تُكْرِهُ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَكُونُواْ مُؤْمِنِينَ 10-99

    Had your Lord willed, all those on earth would have believed altogether. Would you, then, compel people, so that they become believers?

    وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ مَا أَشْرَكُواْ وَمَا جَعَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا وَمَا أَنتَعَلَيْهِم بِوَكِيلٍ6-107

    If Allah willed, they would not have associated. We have not appointed you as a guard over them, nor are you a taskmaster for them.

    لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُصَيْطر, إِلَّا مَن تَوَلَّى وَكَفَر, فَيُعَذِّبُهُ اللَّهُ الْعَذَابَ الْأَكْبَرَ 88-22,23, 24

    You are not a taskmaster set up over them, but whoever turns away and disbelieves, Allah will punish him with the greatest torment.

    Donating to encourage an act that displeases Allah is something different.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 19, 2020 at 10:01 am

    I think that sanity prevailed.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1568209

  • ودود

    Member July 23, 2020 at 11:53 pm

    There are two types of sins:

    1. Crime against God

    2. Crimes against humanity.

    5:2 ask us not be buddy in crimes against humanity involving ‘denial of rights and disproportionate reactions’.

    Polytheism does not fall under this because:

    A polytheist is the one who ‘knowingly and willingly’ worship false gods and we cannot judge anyone if someone is do it ‘knowingly and willingly’. Only God know.

    Even if there is a way to find out who’s doing it willingly and who is not, we are not supposed to do it as God has not authorized us act on His behalf to judge or punish His criminals – thats not our domain.

    Stopping people to practice their religion is a sin not helping them. In fact jihad is against to end persecution on a community people – no matter what religion they belong to – if muslims can afford it.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 23, 2020 at 11:59 pm

    Is there a clear distinction in Qur’an for the crimes against humanity and crimes against God ? Is the human punishment only specific to crimes against humanity ? Can Muslims help the polytheists in committing crimes against God (committing idol worship for example) ?

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 12:06 am

    Yee there is a clear distinction.

    Crimes against humanity needs indemnity and compensation unless the victim gives you. God does not forgive them without transferring good deeds of the sinner to the victim.

    Crimes agains God is a matter between God and human. God forgives them if He likes.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 12:17 am

      Can you please explain this distinction through a Qur’an verse or an authentic hadith ? Thank you.

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 12:46 am

      Please check this video:

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 12:23 am

      Crimes agains God is a matter between God and human. God forgives them if He likes.”

      Two questions on it :

      1. Can Muslims help/assist/donate to the polytheists in committing this crime against God by assisting/helping them in building a temple, and encouraging idol worship ?

      2. Doesn’t Allah say that he forgives anything he likes, except Shirk ? Shirk is the crime against God, and I don’t think God will forgive shirk ever.

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 12:39 am

      It’s a sin for those who know it is a sin. Meaning worshiping idols is a sin for muslims. If hindus believe worshiping idols is actually worshiping the true God, it’s not a sin for them. However our responsibility here is two fold:

      1. Allow them to practice their religion freely thats the right God has given to all humans.

      2. Tell them what they are doing is not right and give them Quran and answer any questions they might have. If they get the point but continue their old practice for any reasons be it social economic or political they become sinners of God who says He wont forgive shirk but may forgive other sins.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 1:49 am

      Yes, but it still doesn’t answer my question.

      1. Can Muslims help/assist/donate to the polytheists in committing this crime against God by assisting/helping them in building a temple, and encouraging idol worship ?

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 1:56 am

    Of course yes.

    Only forbidden things are where it leads to either denial of others rights or your disproportionate reaction to something bad that others have done.

    Helping people practice the faith of their choice is a great virtue of a muslim

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 1:59 am

      Helping non muslims make the right choice is an obligation on muslims.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 2:01 am

      “Helping people practice the faith of their choice is a great virtue of a muslim”

      Does it mean Muslims are encouraged to assist building the temple of idol worship for polytheists ? Since it is a great virtue of Muslim, it should be encouraged as a good practice.

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 2:10 am

      By the way, the tax money thats being used for donation is not muslim tax money its multi religion citizens tax money.

      Even if its muslims tax money it can be donated to build non muslims places of worship. This expalains why God saved non muslim worship places See 22:40.

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 2:04 am

    It sounds odd because we know polytheism is a sin but it is not until they commit it knowingly and willingly. Even if it is thats not your domain to judge it. Your responsibility is to ensure freedom of religion and propagating the truth by Quran.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 2:10 am

      If you know polytheism is a sin, but you said helping them practice their faith and assisting them in idol worship is a good virtue of a Muslim.

      Somehow these two things are contradictory.

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 2:14 am

    You are missing the point.

    It’s a sin for me if i do it and not for them since they believe their religion is right. You need respect their view.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 2:43 am

      Does respecting their view mean assisting and helping them build a place of idol worship and even donating money for it ?

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 2:47 am

    Yes. Giving them their rights is your obligation.

    Giving them the truth is God responsibly.

    Dont worry about who they are worshiping. Your responsibility to help Deen is limited to conveying the message only.

    The idols are in their hearts – the temple does not increase or decrease the sin. They hearts needs a change. Thats possible only thru discussions and respecting their rights first. Creating a confrontation will never help them turn to the truth.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 3:03 am

      I am not talking about confrontation. My question is very simple.

      Does respecting their view mean assisting and helping them build a place of idol worship and even donating money for it ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:46 pm

      I think a temple enabling more people to worship would definitely increase in sin that they commit

  • ودود

    Member July 24, 2020 at 3:09 am

    Help them build it as much as possible. Just like Jihad against persecution is obligatory as much as possible.

    Persecution means stopping people practicing a religion they believe in.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 4:17 am

      Can you give any previous example from Prophet Muhammad or any of his companions where they helped build temples for polytheists ?

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 4:28 am

      See verse 22:40 where God tells us how he saved churches and other worship places.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 4:41 am

      I am not talking about God saving any places, but Muslims building the places of idol worship.

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 4:49 am

      Why would God do something that he doesn’t want us to do?

      God has helped saved places of worship of different religions so how can it become a sin for us? ( 5:2 not relevant here as explained earlier.)

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 5:02 am

      There are many things God does which he doesn’t want humans to do.

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 11:07 pm

      Many verses in Quran ask us to help the needy no matter what religion see 9:60 as an example.

      Providing food or energy to a heart or mind that worship idols does not mean we are promoting shirk.

      Similarly providing free access to a road that leads to a temple does not mean we are promoting shirk or buddy in crime.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:11 pm

      Yes brother Wadud a road can be built- but a Muslim spending his personal money on a temple which will only be used for shirk (or maybe even in the building of a road that specifically leads to a temple as it will only be used for that) I don’t think can be justified as to the reasons I listed above/below

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 24, 2020 at 11:31 pm

      On what principle would a road not be provided that only leads to the temple? Why not every road?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:33 pm

      Because other roads are being used for other things- it’s an unavoidable thing- if you could make it so roads were specific and roads to temples were made only by the state and all other roads by someone else- but it is obviously only possible to a certain extent

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 24, 2020 at 11:41 pm

      If it’s on the principle of unavoidability, then we can at least stop their water, electricity, phone, internet, etc. but we don’t. Should we? Knowing well in advance that they’re worshiping God.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:45 pm

      I think there would need to be a line drawn. A temple is definitely going to be used for shirk. The water ‘may’ be used for shirk.

      Also water is a basic necessity not just for committing shirk- but for life- you would be murdering someone by this.

      It is not that we should not allow shirk to occur in the sense that kill all Mushriks to prevent it. But we should not directly enable it

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 12:03 am

      Water is a basic necessity but electricity is not? What if someone dies of heat? Bus/taxi service is not? What if someone can’t reach the hospital in time? In my opinion we have no way to objectively determine where to draw the line.

      What might be shirk in our eyes might not be in someone else’s who is committing it. They could be sincerely worshipping God. Our job is to relate God’s message to them in the best possible way – they are free to accept it or reject it, and God will deal with them however He sees fit.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:06 am

      Sorry I just referred to water but meant electricity and the other services too. That’s why if a road is only leading to a temple on a dead end the question may arise.

      I don’t see how commuting shirk could lead to life death scenario unless maybe they have some strong connection with that idol.

      As you said we have to convey God’s message and they can reject or accept. But at the same time to lend credibility to our preaching and as a purification of our own selves I would say personally helping people commit this act is not supported by Islam

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 12:09 am

      Perfectly fine, we can agree to disagree until I know any better. 😊

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:10 am

      👍

      جزاكم الله خيرا

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:16 am

      I agree with your point. There is no Qur’an verse or Hadith which says that a good Muslim should help or donate his money/energy in helping polytheists build their temples.

      The only provision which I can find is under treaty that their existing places of worship will be protected and not destroyed by Muslim armies/rulers. I am not sure if this provision also, is only applicable to Jews/Christians alone or also extended to Hindu polytheists who do idol worship.

    • ودود

      Member July 25, 2020 at 6:06 am

      What about 9:60?

      Dont you think non muslims are free to use charity from muslims on building anything as long as it’s legal?

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 5:04 am

      Just to convey my understanding, one can intervene in any religion’s freedom only after ittemam-e-hujjat is done by the rusul (in accordance with direct revelation from God) otherwise no one has authority to do that. In other circumstances, Non-Muslims are free to follow their religion in whatever manner they please and we should act in accordance with the agreement reached with mutual consent, which would give them status of a muaahid.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 8:48 am

      We need to understand if idol worship is an evil act or not. If it is an evil act, then it can’t be assisted/supported/provided for by the Muslims.

      If we take the interpretation that it is a sin, which Allah doesn’t like, but Muslims are not to consider those non-Muslims who indulge in shirk as evil people, then it is fine to assist them in building their places of worship.

      There is a hadees where Prophet said to stop evil by hand, or at least by tongue .. if it is not possible, then consider it wrong in one’s heart, and if a Muslim doesn’t do it , he is not a believer.

      If idol worship and building of temple is an evil act, then Muslims can’t support it. In fact they are to oppose it by any manner in their power, if the hadith above is considered authentic.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 9:55 am

      That Hadith is not an absolute order, it is with reference to a person’s domain of responsibility as a parent or as a leader for example. (Contrary to what you said, the Hadith doesn’t say that a Muslim is not a believer in the end)

      The idol worship is an evil act by nature, but a person doing idol worship is not evil but is a subject of Dawah and therefore, there is freedom for him to practice his religion until the time of ittemam-e-Hujjat by a Rasul himself.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 9:57 am

      Yes bhai and freedom to practice can be supplied by a government from a nation state- but can we still say that a Muslim should not propagate it or enable it with his own wealth?

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:05 am

      If it’s my money and I am under no obligation whatsoever to give money for temple, then I would prefer not to (similarly I would prefer not to donate money for building of certain sect’s mosques whose beliefs I consider polytheistic)

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:31 am

      Bhai i think i would like some clarification here. Is it your preference stopping you or a religious directive prohibiting it? I personally think it is the latter

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 11:50 am

      I don’t see any religious bar here.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 3:46 pm

      The religious bar imo is that we should not help others in sin- whether that’s murder zina or shirk

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:00 am

      Hadith says in the end : “and that is the weakest of faith”.

      Idol worship is an evil act, as you mentioned, but Muslims are not supposed to stop it ? Strange.

      Idol worship is an evil act, as you mentioned, but a person doing the evil act is not evil ? Do you apply the same criterion for other lesser sins ?

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:02 am

      Which lesser evil sin for example?

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:05 am

      homosexuality, theft, rape, murder, zina etc. which all are lesser sins than idol worship/polytheism.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:10 am

      I am under no obligation to report adultery / homosexuality (its a long debate for another time). This punishment is under very specific circumstances.

      As for theft, rape and murder–they all involve direct violation of someone’s rights which make these an immediate offence. Polytheism is an act against GOD for which GOD will punish in this world only after ittmam-e-Hujjat of Rasul.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:12 am

      I am not talking about punishment, but considering those people as evil and supporting them in their act.

      The hadith is very clear, it says “whoever of you sees an evil, stop it ” .

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:21 am

      “As for theft, rape and murder–they all involve direct violation of someone’s rights which make these an immediate offence. Polytheism is an act against GOD for which GOD will punish in this world only after ittmam-e-Hujjat of Rasul.”

      Even adultery is a direct violation of spouse’s trust.. but it’s ok.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:29 am

      Adultery can happen both with or without a spouse present and I don’t know how did you reach this conclusion that its ok.

      It’s still better to start a new thread if you want to discuss topic of adultery.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:33 am

      No .. I meant it’s ok to not discuss it here..

      Adultery is also the violation of spouse’s trust.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:08 am

      “That Hadith is not an absolute order, it is with reference to a person’s domain of responsibility as a parent or as a leader for example.”

      The hadith says : “<em style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”>“Whoever of you sees an evil must then change it with his hand …. ”

      <em style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”>

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:12 am

      And I being a student of Islam telling you what this Hadith means after applying all the principles of ilm-e-Hadith (i.e. The Principles of understanding Hadith).

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:15 am

      Unless that principle of understanding hadith clearly comes up with a different meaning than what Prophet intended, it is pointless discussion. Hadith wasn’t specific to any particular evil act, let’s not insert our understanding to the direct and clear words of God or Prophet.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:20 am

      Hadith has always been considered a Zanni-ilm (not a certain ilm like Quran and Sunnah).

      Please study scholars of Hadith and their principles of understanding Hadith if you are really interested in understanding the nature of Hadith.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:23 am

      Yes, and different scholars interpret the hadith differently. I didn’t hear any interpretation of this hadith to exclude certain evil acts . If you can provide such an explanation of this hadith, it will be helpful.

    • Umer

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 1:18 pm

      Despite differing interpretations of this Hadith, yet no one interprets it into stopping anyone from praying according to their religion (whether polytheist or not). Therefore, this does not add to the discussion of polytheism that we are having.

      Coming to the Hadith, in the end it talks about lowest level of faith. In principle, a faith only reaches lower level when someone is in a position / power / control / authority to do something and yet he/she doesn’t do it accordingly. For example, In all ibadah, relaxation is given on this principle, if someone can pray standing and has power to do so, yet he chooses to not pray standing, this will lower his faith. However, a person who is required to pray standing but has genuine excuse like sickness to not be able to stand, but has no option other than praying while sitting, this will not lower his faith. Similarly, when a person has authority/responsibility over someone, then any act of evil done in front of him, he should stop that act with hands (like father stopping a son from an evil act) and if despite having authority a person only considers it bad in his heart only and doesn’t say anything against it or try to stop it, this will lower his faith and this is what this Hadith is talking about. We all have a certain domain of responsibility within our domain of action/daily life.In no circumstance, a person who has no domain of responsibility/authority over others, has any obligation like this.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 2:32 pm

      “Despite differing interpretations of this Hadith, yet no one interprets it into stopping anyone from praying according to their religion (whether polytheist or not). Therefore, this does not add to the discussion of polytheism that we are having.”

      Unless Prophet meant to exclude the evil of polytheism or idol worship from the list of evils he mentioned in this hadith, I am not sure how can any scholar interpret it in a manner different from what I derived. If not polytheism, then what evils did he want the believers to stop ?

    • ودود

      Member July 24, 2020 at 11:32 pm

      I believe the first part of my reply addresses your points or maybe i didn’t get your concerns right. Lets try again:

      If one of your siblings decides to marry a wrong person will you help him/her in the wedding ceremony?

      I would. Because deciding who to marry for others is not my domain. Thats the domain of the couple getting married. Helping them in the wedding does not make me accountable if marriage fails in the future.

      Similarly worshiping false gods is wrong in my view but thats not my domain to decide which God who should worship. My role is give them a honest advice. If they say no thanks and want me to help build a temple i will do it for them as my social and religious responsibility of helping others just like i helped my siblings to get married.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:37 pm

      I think it is clear that helping anyone in sin is a sin. Whether that’s enabling someone to commit shirk or marry a polytheist.

      The same way you would tell someone to eat halal food but you wouldn’t actively give them pork if they deny

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 11:41 pm

      If the grounds of objection on the marriage is not that it isn’t haraam then I would attend- but if it is in opposition to the law of Allah I have written below

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 8:15 am

      But brother :

      if we know that prostitution is wrong,

      Why would we help others build brothels or fund their practice .

      This would be done on the name of freedom and allowance of God for humans to exercise freewill.

      Forgive me for the crude example but shirk is obviously greater than zina

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 24, 2020 at 10:29 am

      Ahmad saab I don’t think that your example is befitting. People involved in prostitution inherently know that they are doing something wrong. No religious person believes that ibada is wrong – our disagreement is about who is worshipped and how. In that regard, our job is not to stop them from doing something that they sincerely think is good – it is to guide them towards the right concept and the approach.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 24, 2020 at 10:47 am

      And at the same time we shouldn’t propagate it or from our own personal wealth help in its execution- as that would no.1 make us a partner and helper in shirk no.2 send mixed messages as to whether we agree with the action.

      Of course as a nation state the matter is differnt

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 24, 2020 at 11:02 am

      That’s your personal choice, and I respect that. Generally my personal approach is to stick to the principles and not base my beliefs and actions on perceived outcomes.

      As for the nation state – that’s the reality of the day! 😊

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:02 am

      People involved in sexual relationships without marriages do NOT necessarily think that they are doing something wrong.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 12:07 am

      You think that they don’t, but they do. Moral ethics are universal – gauge for wrong and right has been inherently placed in humans. Of course we can desensitize ourselves by repeatedly ignoring the voice of our conscience, but in general we know it very well.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:12 am

      No.. because marriage is not the default morality. Sexual relations outside marriage is a taboo only because of social constructs. It is not inherent morality that one can’t have sexual relations before marriage.

      The people who don’t believe marriage is a necessary construct for a proper relationship, do NOT find anything wrong in having sex before marriage.

      Adultery is a different matter, and I find it immoral because it involves cheating of trust. However, if it is done with consent of one’s husband/wife, it is NOT immoral.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:15 am

      I would love Faisal bhai to explain this: the way Ghamidi sahab explains it makes me think it kind of a sadd e zaria category. Because it leads to addiction and a possibility of a human child coming into this world is made very common and that leads to multitudes of problems with single mothers abortions etc

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:22 am

      A child coming into the world without marriage, is a problem only because of our society, which doesn’t accept such children, without any fault of those children. Many children are born to the parents who don’t love each other, but are together only because divorce is a taboo in society.

      I think unless you cheat someone, there is no inherent immorality in itself to have sex outside marriage. It is impractical, but not immoral.

      Anyway, this discussion may be going into marriage/sex/societal acceptance, which we can discuss in a separate thread, but the basic point is .. there are these acts which the people who commit them, don’t find immoral, but they are considered sinful acts in Islam.. same with idol worship. In fact idol worship is a bigger sin than sex outside marriage, according to Islam.

      So, I tend to agree with your point Ahmad Shoaib bhai, that helping them in idol worship is a bigger problem than helping them in sex outside marriage.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 12:18 am

      As I stated moral ethics are universal. Would you say that the majority of humanity at present time or any time in the past accepted sexual relationships outside of marriage as a norm? From what I know, that’s not right.

      That said, this discussion is derailing from the topic of temple. If it’s an important issue for you to discuss, please start a new topic.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 12:25 am

      Yes, we can discuss this morality in a separate thread, as this topic is about temple in Islamabad.

  • Saba Madani

    Member July 24, 2020 at 3:33 am

    Br. Wadood! MashAllah! Beautifully explained

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 25, 2020 at 2:47 pm

    It seems from the clear hadith that our dear scholars and Muslim friends are reinterpreting clear and direct messages from Prophet and/or Allah. The hadith is as clear as it gets, and still we are busy reinterpreting it into context and applicability. If this hadith is authentic, it seems that reinterpretation of such a clear message is not an honest approach, unless our Muslim brothers feel that Prophet was a bad communicator. When Prophet clearly said “whosoever of you sees an evil, stop it” what is there to classify it based on context ? It seems when Prophet said “X” . he really meant “Y” .

    This hadith doesn’t exclude any evil act from the classification, however it seems we are interpreting it to exclude polytheism outside the scope. Then what evil acts did Prophet mean to include in it ? Adultery, theft, homosexuality? If he meant it, why didn’t he specify it in his message ? Specially when he knew that any word or statement he says should be very clear, as people will use his wordings for centuries.

    It seems our Muslim brothers are really proving that Prophet was a bad communicator in important messages (if this hadith is authentic). Similar observation is on the hadith of apostasy.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 3:24 pm

      Brother a hadith is not just the text. It has a context. The context behind both the hadiths you are using lead to a different conclusion. For specific examples you can start a new thread and me sure to @ me!

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 3:45 pm

      Also brother Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم wasn’t the one to communicate these things it was through a chain of many people

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 8:52 pm

      If you are doubting the authenticity of the hadith, it is a different matter. My assertion is based on the assumption that Prophet indeed said it.

      On your second point, that a hadith is not just a text, but has a context behind it, please provide the detailed context of this statement from Prophet. Where can we find it ? Please explain if he meant to exclude the evil of polytheism from this directive to Muslims to stop the evil.

      This hadith is relevant to the discussion, unless it is proven that Prophet didn’t mean to include polytheism in his comment.

    • ودود

      Member July 25, 2020 at 9:37 pm

      This hadith is an explanation of verse ‘amer bil maroof..’ where maroof and munkar refers to generally accepted norms or law of the land enforced to ensure social interactions between people are just and fair. It’s got nothing to do with rights of God i e faith and worship etc that is matter of citizens personal domains.

      In addition the scope of the verse and related hadith is limited to one’s own domains. E g as head of family i need to ensure members follow maroof and munkar as the family has defined and agreed. Similarly if i am a head of a state the maroof and munkar will be define through the ‘amro hum shoora bainahum’ process which means the verdict of the majority (not necessarily religion) will prevail. if it’s a muslim majority the maroof o munkar will reflect their understanding of Islam not necessarily the true islam. However, the quality of maroof o munkar will continue improving if freedom of expression and dialogue is ensured and people improve their understand of the truth.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 25, 2020 at 9:52 pm

    “It’s got nothing to do with rights of God i e faith and worship etc that is matter of citizens personal domains.”

    Then Prophet should have clearly mentioned this classification in his comment, which he did not. The directive is pretty generic, he didn’t mention that it is only applicable to certain evils and not the others.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator July 25, 2020 at 10:00 pm

      Sameer bhai hadith is not a source of religion. It contains explanation of certain directives. Please watch this short clip, hopefully it will help.

      https://youtu.be/1i_hZQIrIn0

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator July 25, 2020 at 9:53 pm

    Maroof are the universally accepted good, and munkar are the universally accepted bad.

  • ودود

    Member July 25, 2020 at 9:56 pm

    For religion Quran clearly says ‘la iqrafiddin..’ and for human rights Quran says ‘Amer bil maroof…’ which means you cannot enforce deen but must enforce maroof o munkar. Is it not clear enough yet?

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:04 pm

      I don’t understand the meaning of “not forcing the deen” .. when Prophet was ordered to kill all those polytheists in Arabia who rejected the truth after he explained them.

      Coming back to the topic, the crux is :

      If Muslims consider shirk and polytheism to be evil, then how can they support or even donate money in the evil causes which promote the shirk/idol worship in the society ?

  • ودود

    Member July 25, 2020 at 10:29 pm

    You need to understand the difference between God’s rights and human rights first. Otherwise it’s hard to reach an agreement on the temple issue

    The quran is full of verses telling prophet mohammad SW to just convey the message and whether they accept it or not should not be his concern.

    Killing infidels was a punishment of God to His criminals that He asked his messenger to carry out in His behalf. At times God did this punishment to the people of His messengers through natural calamity or other means.

    You can join conquest of Mecca to learn more about this topic.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:32 pm

    The quran is full of verses telling prophet mohammad SW to just convey the message and whether they accept it or not should not be his concern.”

    If that were the case, God wouldn’t ask Prophet to kill those polytheists who rejected him after completion of proof.

  • Sameer Bhagwat

    Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:33 pm

    Coming back to the topic, the crux is :

    If Muslims consider shirk and polytheism to be evil, then how can they support or even donate money in the evil causes which promote the shirk/idol worship in the society ?

    • ودود

      Member July 25, 2020 at 10:46 pm

      Whether we can do it or not depends on whether it’s legal or illegal to do it in Pakistan. Thats because we are supposed enforce only maroof o munkar on others.

      In malaysia i can use my truck to transport wine bottles and earn out of service and that would be legal and halal but i do the same thing in Pakistan it would be illgal and haram. However drinking alcohol will be haram no matter i am in Malaysia or Pakistan.

      Thats because maroof o munkar are different in both countries

  • ودود

    Member July 25, 2020 at 10:38 pm

    Why not?

    God will punish who knowingly and willingly denied Him. He can punish here or hereafter as he pleases what your concern on this?

    The point here is we cannot judge, force or punish anyone who’s denied God.

    The messenger and his team were tasked to do it so they did it. God has not tasked us to do it and if we do it without His authority that would be a great sin.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 10:47 pm

      Then is it allowed for Muslims to organize Pride parades supporting the LGBT causes saying homosexuality is fine ? Is it allowed for Muslims to donate money to the causes of LGBT ?

  • ودود

    Member July 25, 2020 at 10:53 pm

    LGBT is a human right issue not a faith or worship issue. If you think those born hybrid should have right to choose sexual orientation you can support them and if u feel they must stick to the dominant side of their physical orientation no matter what gender attracts their hearts you can support that view point as long as you believe your views are fair and just.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:02 pm

      I am asking if Muslims can donate to/organize the pride parade for LGBT citing that homosexuality is fine and even some placards saying Allah approves of homosexuality ? We know what kind of placards are displayed in the LGBT parades, they go against the very idea of what Islam says about the act of homosexuality. According to many Muslim jurists, homosexuality is an evil thing, but lesser evil than idol worship, and I assume both of them are crimes against God.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:09 pm

      I think (think) what brother Wadud means is that we should donate and fight for people in the LGBTQ community to have an equal standard of rights (human- I’m not sure about marital) but we would still have ikhtilaaf about their ideology. Shirk is different as it’s not to do with human rights. Of there was persecution of Mushriks we would also campaign

    • ودود

      Member July 25, 2020 at 11:18 pm

      Homosexuality is an evil when it leads to injustice in form of leading the human race to extinction. This is like man slaughtering of future generation.

      It’s a different case for those who cannot reproduce in the first place. If they find comfort in the company of someone hybrid like them so what’s wrong in that. Sin comes in many forms of injustice you must spot it first before labelling anything as a sin.

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:23 pm

      I am not talking about persecution of LGBT people or persecution of polytheists. My question on both temple issue of idol worship and LGBT pride parade is same. Let me repeat my question for LGBT pride parade.

      I am asking if Muslims can donate to/organize the pride parade for LGBT citing that homosexuality is fine and even some placards saying Allah approves of homosexuality ? We know what kind of placards are displayed in the LGBT parades, they go against the very idea of what Islam says about the act of homosexuality. According to many Muslim jurists, homosexuality is an evil thing, but lesser evil than idol worship, and I assume both of them are crimes against God.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:30 pm

      Well if it is a lie against Islam then how could we support it? And brother Wadud commuting sodomy or lesbianism is a sin in Islam- we can start a new thread of needed إن شاء الله

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:35 pm

      But it seems a bigger lie against Islam in terms of polytheism and idol worship is allowed. Not only allowed, according to some Muslims, it is to be encouraged that Muslims donate and assist this.

      But, a lesser crime like homosexuality which is propagated in LGBT-pride parades is a strict no-no. Muslims can’t donate to the LGBT pride parades or the Muslim government can not use Muslim tax payer money in helping organizing LGBT pride sessions .

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:36 pm

      I’m pretty sure no Muslim (mainstream) allows idol worship

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:37 pm

      And I have already made my stance clear I think. A nation state has no choice but to assist and support it. But I believe in a personal capacity it is not allowed

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:41 pm

      I am talking about giving money, donating to the cause of temple construction. Same as giving money, donating to the LGBT pride parade.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:43 pm

      I would agree- if it is not a humans right issue I would not support it either

    • Sameer Bhagwat

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:46 pm

      Let’s keep the human rights of LGBT and polytheists for a separate discussion. Let’s only concentrate on the point of :

      Are Muslims, in their personal capacity, allowed by Islam, to assist/donate money to/help organize the construction of temple or an LGBT pride parade ?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor July 25, 2020 at 11:48 pm

      As per my view no- others will disagree

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