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Should Muslims Be Celebrating Worldly Punishment For The Jews
My question is related to the following answer of ghamidi saab: https://youtu.be/EuW-x11HgsM
Following are the questions:
1. Since its an azaab on the Jews, should we then celebrate the genocide of them by Hitler etc?
2. If not celebrate the genocide, should we also not condemn its because at the end of the day its the promised punishment for the jews?
3. In future if someone does the same to the Jews, and we are in a position of power, should we not stop the aggressor? Or condemn it ?
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14 Replies
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Should Muslims Be Celebrating Worldly Punishment For The Jews
updated 1 year, 9 months ago
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14
Replies
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Imran Sahab ( @Saifullah ) please crticize in a constructive way, instead of attacking other person’s intellect. Just the way your questions are not answered with attacks on your intellect, please afford others the same oppotunity of asking questions freely without any fear of useless censure or reprimand. I am deleting your comment. I hope you will be more careful in the future.
My apologies Majid Sahab ( @Ilmimajid ).
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As far as the question is concerned, I believe we have to separate our moral duty as a human being from divine acts committed by God. How God imposes punishment on Bani-Israel in breach of their covenant falls in God’s domain, we have no way of knowing God’s startegy in this regard. What’s absolute from our perspective is moral yardstick, on which we will judge right from wrong, from a moral perspective, and not from God’s perspective of his Divine Law(s).
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Khair h bhai.
You’ve given an usooli answer, which I fully understand and agree with. But fitting in these events to just “khuda ke faiseley” doesn’t still satisfy me.
Is it possible to ask Ghamidi saab these exact cases and our response?
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To take an answer directly from Ghamidi Sahab, best way is to register for next Ask Ghamidi Live Session at the following link and ask him this question personally. Even if one doesn’t get a chance to ask question in one session, despite attending it, the same person is given priority in registration for the next session:
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Another similarity (to some extent) can be drawn from the incident of Khizr (sws) and Musa (sws), the way veil was removed for Musa (sws) for the time being just to show him how divine decisions and divine interventions are being conducted in this world. Those events were also “Khuda kai Faislay” and reaction of Musa (sws) was exactly how every Muslim from their moral perspective should respond because now we have the same veil i.e. we only know the prophecy in this regard, but not the divine strategy in this regard or how it is working and through what means. Therefore, we do not have enough information to say conclusively whether this particular incident was a part of divine strategy under that prophecy or not. What we have are the moral gounds to judge one’s action against the other. Judging anything beyond that doesn’t fall in our domain, rather it falls in divine domain.
May be Dr. Irfan Shahzad Sahab ( @Irfan76 ) can shed further light on this matter.
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Umer bhai, my only counter to the example you have given is that there was no set rule/promise revealed by God to Musa A.S before he witnessed such incidents.
In this particular case, the jews have been promised to be punished and be repressed by believers of Christ A.S.
How can we use our moral compass when something is clearly promised for them ?
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There are three dimensions (closely related but separate) to this punishment:
1) Punishment whenever Bani-Israel broke their covenant with Allah (Quran 17:5); and now On and Off punishment on Bani-Israel till Qiyamah. (Quran 7:167, Quran 59:3)
2) Punishment on that generation of Bani-Israel who rejected Prophet Jesus (sws). (Quran 10:47)
3) Political domination of followers of Prophet Jesus (sws) over Bani-Israel till Qiyamah (Quran 3:55). This only means political domination, doesn’t imply punsihment at the hands of Christians necessarily.
As far as first type of punishment is concerned, Quran 17:5 uses the words ” عِبَادًا لَّنَآ اُولِیْ بَاْسٍ شَدِیْدٍ” which means “My powerful men” referring to those people who inflicted such punishment on Bani-Israel. Now we all know that those were oppressors and aggressors (specifically Nebuchadnezzar II) but God used them to achive one of his divine objectives. From the perspective of God, he used rebels as a tool for his own divine scheme, this doesn’t mean that act of those rebels if done as aggressors and oppressors should be condoned. God can use his creation in thousands of ways which our minds can’t even comprehend.
The same would be the case with Hitler as well; it is quite probable that from God’s perspective, his atrocious attitude may have complemented God’s scheme in some way, but this doesn’t mean that we should either applaud or ratify his abhorrent actions against humanity which from our persepctive as Humans and as Muslims, goes against absolute moral values.
Bottom line is that we only know of the Prophecy mentioned in Quran 7:167, neither do we know the exact God’s strategy nor the exact timing when will that punishment be inflicted upon Bani-Israel.
Following video also summarizes these three kinds of Punishments, please refer from 30:56 to 31:52
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Thanks for the detailed thread, sorry if this bugs you but why are we calling the act of the “strong men” who inflicted punishment on the Jews back then wrong ? Why are we judging them based on our moral scale, when we know for sure their aggression was in a way God utilising a tool for punishment?
The other angle opens up here is that, if God utilised them for a certain action, was free will really involved? Seems like it wasn’t, are they still the aggressors?
Ghamidi saab explains the azaab that will be kept being inflicted upon them on/off, you’re right we don’t know who will be utilised for this, so we better use our moral scale here ( really hard to do understand this because God has already warned/promised them of this azaab)
Sorry if this got too long and confusing, trying to ask from all angles to understand this rule better myself.
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It is perfectly fine, please do keep exploring this from every angle.
Without going off topic, let me put it in another way:
What criteria do you have to say with certainty that this was the same punishment as prophesized and not because of some other factor(s)?
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Okay this might be a long shot, but remember how ghamidi saab explained that the sign of qiyamah (slave mother giving birth to her owner) is basically the abolition of slavery, mainly because it was something the entire world noticed. Similarly, the only major punishment on Jews that has been internationally recognised was hitlers genocide. Therefore if at all something has been prophesied/promised, IMHO it’s got to be that.
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Firstly, Just the way we cannot say with certainty regarding interpretation of Hadith-e-Jibreel that abolishment of slavery is the true manifestation of the prophecy of ‘concubine giving birth to her owner‘, similarly we cannot say with certainty that Hitler’s actions were manifestation of God’s punishment as prophesized. Therefore, we should stick to absolute morality at our end.
Secondly, The prophecy of ‘concubine giving birth to her owner‘ was specifically mentioned as a sign of Qiyamah, while this punishment on Bani-Israel is not a sign of Qiyamah, rather it is a punsihment on them for their violation of covenant with Allah and Bani-Israel had been informed of this verdict since the very beginning. Thus it is mentioned at many places in Leviticus and Deuteronomy in the Bible. After that also, the prophets kept reminding them of it. The scriptures of Isaiah and Jeremiah and of all other prophets mention this warning. Finally, Jesus (sws) proclaimed it in the streets of Jerusalem. Therefore, as opposed to sign of Qiyamah mentioned in Hadith-e-Jibreel, this is God’s dealing with His selected nation who’d gone rogue.
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Yeah okay, it does mostly make sense, the differentiation between a sign and a warning. With that we can conclude that in future if any such aggression takes place, we as Muslims should not only raise voice against it but also support the Jews in whatever capacity we can.
Finally could you please clarify the doubt I had raised earlier: ” why are we calling the act of the “strong men” who inflicted punishment on the Jews back then wrong ? Why are we judging them based on our moral scale, when we know for sure their aggression was in a way God utilising a tool for punishment? ”
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God utilized their oppression in his grand scheme of things, however this doesn’t mean they were pious people in the sight of God. God could’ve used any other means if he so willed, but since oppressors were already wreaking havoc in the world, so God did not stop them from wreaking havoc on Bani-Israel. Had Bani-Israel been sticking to their covenant with God, they would’ve been under protection of God and no one could’ve done this to them. Hence this doesn’t absolve the oppressor from his sin of oppression.
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Thank you ! It’s crystal clear ab 🤍
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Umer Qureshi sahab, your answer quite right and the example is so apt. Jazak Allah.
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