Ask Ghamidi

A Community Driven Discussion Portal
To Ask, Answer, Share And Learn

Forums Forums General Discussions Ustad-e-Mohtaram On The Rivalry Between Hz. Ali (rta) And Hz. Muawiyah (rta) (2)

Tagged: ,

  • Ustad-e-Mohtaram On The Rivalry Between Hz. Ali (rta) And Hz. Muawiyah (rta) (2)

    Posted by Muhammad Sami ud-Din on December 5, 2023 at 8:07 am

    Asselamu aleykum,

    I have completed watching the series of Ustad-e-Mohtaram (ha) on the disagreement between Hazrat Ali (rta) and Ameer-i Muawiyah (rta). I hardly take time for watching and focusing the opinion of Ustad-e-Mohtaram (ha). So, kindly pardon me if I have missed something.

    I have some questions regarding both companions of our Holy Prophet (sav), after watching the series.

    * Was Hazrat Ali (rta) really appointed by the killers of Hazrat Uthman (rta), as his successor, As claimed by Hazrat Muawiyah (rta)?

    * The sons of Hazrat Ali (rta) protected Hazrat Uthman (rta). It is reported that, they were also injured during all this. So, they would probably knew who martyred Hazrat Uthman (rta). Why didn’t they avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta)?

    * It is not related to the disagreement itself. But, On the 20th part, Hassan Ilyas Sb. (ha) mentioned that Prophet (sav) said, “Man Kunto Maula, Fahaaza Aliyyun Maula”. Is that tradition authentic? Actually, It is related to the virtue of Amir ul-Mu’minin Hazrat Ali (rta).

    * On the event of Treaty of Hudaybiah, Rasul Allah (sav) asked Hazrat Ali (rta) to, write ‘Muhammad ibn Abdullah’, instead of ‘Allah Rasul Muhammad’ on the demand of the non-Muslims. To which Hazrat Ali (rta) disagreed respectfully, then Rasul Allah (sav) himself wrote ‘Muhammad ibn Abdullah’ on the treaty instead of ‘Muhammad ur-Rasul Allah’. Then he told Hazrat Ali (rta) that, this kind of test will also come to him. Then, Hazrat Ameer-i Muawiyah (rta) disagreed on accepting hm as the caliph of Muslims. This event is also mentioned by Dr. Waseem Mufti Sb. (ha) on javedahmadghamidi.org. Can we say that based on this, Hazrat Ali (rta) was righteous, and we can leave the room to discuss the righteousness of Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah (rta). Moreover, is it Guman-e-Ghalib? (Link:- https://www.javedahmedghamidi.org/#!/ishraq/5c9b497ddf25cde54fba782b?articleId=5c9c94e7df25cde54fba8d95&decade=2020&year=2023)

    * Regarding Ameer-i Shaam Haazrat Muawiyah (rta). I want to say that if the main suspects of the murder of Hazrat Uthman (rta) (such as, Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr and Malik al-Ashtar) were died. Then, why Hazrat Ameer-i Muawiyah (rta) continued the fights till the end. Until, Hazrat Hasan (rta) signed the treaty with him?

    * And If, he appointed his son Yazid I, as his successor to make peace for the ummah. Then, I would say for the same thing Hazrat Ali (rta) accepted the caliphate of Muslims. And he was fighting with Shi’an-e-Muawiyah (rta) for the same thing. After the death of the killers of Hazrat Uthman (rta), why he was continuously fighting with Hazrat Ali (rta)?

    * What is the opinion of Ustad-e-Mohtaram (ha) on the death of the brothers of Hazrat Aisha (rta). Who were fighting as Shi’an-e-Ali? It is said that the dead body of Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was found from the cave, and Abdur-Rahman ibn Abi Bakr was also killed. After this, Hazrat Aisha (rta) is also said to have been sad and angered with the Umayyads.

    * The clarification on the unjustified killing of Hujr ibn Adi.

    * The evil characters of Hajjaj ibn Yusuf and Marwan ibn al-Hakam. Who were with Muawiyah (rta). It is said, that they were cursed by the Messenger of Allah (sav). And if we accept that he was not cursed by Rasul Allah (sav). Still, they were oppressors. Even, Abdullah ibn Umar (rta) was killed by Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf.

    * The regret of Abdullah ibn Umar (rta), over not supporting Hazrat Ali (rta).

    * And is the event of Abu Sufyan (rta), in which he was scolded by Hazrat Ali (rta) for not supporting Hazrat Abu Bakr (rta). Just because, he was not from the powerful tribe of Quraysh, true? It is said that, he was not much closer to Rasul Allah (sav) that’s why, he believed on the superiority and inferiority of someone, based on his lineage. Which is against the principles of Islam.

    Many important questions are coming in our minds. But, for now. If I get the answers to these things, I will be grateful to you. Thanks.

    Dr. Irfan Shahzad replied 4 months ago 2 Members · 12 Replies
  • 12 Replies
  • Ustad-e-Mohtaram On The Rivalry Between Hz. Ali (rta) And Hz. Muawiyah (rta) (2)

    Dr. Irfan Shahzad updated 4 months ago 2 Members · 12 Replies
  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar December 5, 2023 at 10:46 pm

    Kindly put one question in one post. Some of your questions are already answered in the series. You are suggested to watch the lecture series carefully and try to understand it. it is no use to watch content full of very valuable implications hurriedly.

    Individual reports have no status of determining right and wrong. This was a political rift and politically motivated people are subject to bias and false accusations on their opponent. That is why we do not consider individual reports to come to a conclusion.

    Hazrat Muawiah’s stance was valid though one may differ with his strategy. He was asking for a fair trial but Hazrat Ali denied it and kept heading and protecting the murderers, actually, they were running his government. Malik Ashtar was his chief commander who was one of the major culprits. It was the Iraqi or kufi politically active wing who killed Usman and caused trouble for Hazrat Ali, he, too, got fed up with them and cursed them and one of them killed him. They were the ones who kept insisting on fighting even after the death of Malik and Muhammad bin Abu Bakr, they cursed and attacked Hazrat Hassan for making peace with Muawiah. It was Muawiah’s great abilities that enabled him to control these anarchists.

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 6, 2023 at 7:44 am

    I am sorry, if I missed some queries. Actually, It is very difficult for me to watch the whole series with full attention. I hardly finished the series. Sometimes, I used to fast the playback speed of the videos. Because, of busyness.

    Hazrat Ali (rta) was over and over asking for the man-power, so that he could avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta). Even, when he agreed for it. Then, many people in the majlis stood up and said that, they all are the killers of Hazrat Uthman (rta). They were all covering their faces. In that event many companions were martyred. Hazrat Ali (rta) used to cry outside the city of Kufa watching the ummah being hostile towards each other. When he saw the dead body of Muhammad ibn Talha (rta), he cried, even though he came to fight against Hazrat Ali (rta). It is reported that he said to Hazrat Hasan (rta), that he wish he would died 20 years before the Battle of Jamal. Hazrat Uthman (rta) was the best friend of Hazrat Ali (rta). He helped him giving mahr to Hazrat Fatima (rta). Even, the children of Hazrat Ali (rta) were injured in protecting Hazrat Uthman (rta), during the siege of the house of Hazrat Uthman (rta). Why he would do that? Lastly, claiming that Malik al-Ashter and Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr are definitely the killers of Hazrat Uthman (rta), is wrong. Ustad-e-Mohtaram (ha) have only suspected them. And, defended Hazrat Ali (rta) for this. When, I researched about this myself, I find out that, they were the active opponents of Hazrat Uthman (rta). Because, he made some mistakes, during his caliphate. They were also involved in the siege. But, no one knew that he would be martyred by the group of people who were in the siege. Both, denied that they have killed Hazrat Uthman (rta). The sons of Malik al-Ashter avenge the martyrdom of Hazrat Husayn (rta). It indicates that, he was the loyal companion of Bani-Hashim. Not, the one, who took refuge in Shi’an-e-Ali, just to protect himself.

    Kindly tell me, Why Ameer-i Muawiyah (rta) was not giving man-power to Hazrat Ali (rta), when he was asking for it, over and over again to avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta)? And was Hazrat Ali (rta) really appointed by the killers of Hazrat Uthman (rta) as the new caliphs of Muslims?

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 6, 2023 at 7:53 am

    I a hurry, I mistakenly wrote siege. But, I meant that they were involved in the protests.

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar December 7, 2023 at 4:27 am

    His murderers admitted in public by raising their hands again and again that they murdered Usma, and they never hid it.

    You are advised to watch and read this subject with patience if you are interested in it. It takes time. we have given our opinion and we do not discuss individual reports.

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 7, 2023 at 6:29 am

    Ok, I will watch the series, again some time. But, as you mentioned above. When did Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr and Malik al-Ashtar said that, they have murdered Uthman?

    We cannot deny all the traditions. Even, Ustad-e-Mohtaram (ha) acknowledged this opinion of Maulana Maududi (ra).

    1. Uthman was not killed by only one individual so that he could be brought to book; rather an extensive uprising was launched an angry mob against him. The uprising led ultimately to his death. Imam Ali (AS) could not punish thousands of people for launching an uprising which Uthman himself was to blame for.

    2. In confirmation of the above, it has been reported in The Event of Siffin that the narrator says: Abu Omamah Baheli and Abu Darda who were with Mu’awiyah in Syira met with the latter and said to him: “O Mu’awiyah, why do you fight this man (Ali bin Abi Talib)? By Allah, he is the one who first embraced Islam and he is the one who is more entitled to take over the government; he is closer to the Prophet of God (S), then on what basis are you fighting him?”

    Mu’awiyah replied: “I am fighting him to avenge Uthman’s death because he has given refuge to Uthman’s murderers; tell him to let us get a hand on Uthman’s murderers and show them to us. In that case, I would be the first person from the Syrian people to vow allegiance to him.”

    The two men set off towards Ali (AS) and conveyed Mu’awiyah’s message to him. Imam Ali (AS) said: “(If you are looking for Uthman’s murderers), these are the ones (those killers) whom you see.”

    There were twenty thousand or more than twenty thousand people who were wearing armors with their faces covered in such a way that only their eyes were visible. They said: “We are all Uthman’s murderers, if they are seeking retribution of Uthman’s death, they should punish all of us.”

    Thereupon, Abu Omamah and Abu Darda returned and they never took part in any of the battles that ensued and this event took place in the month of Rajab.[1]

    [1] [1]. «قال و خرج أبو أمامة الباهلي و أبو الدرداء فدخلا على معاوية و كانا معه فقالا يا معاوية علام تقاتل هذا الرجل فو الله لهو أقدم منك سلما و أحق بهذا الأمر منك و أقرب من النبي ص فعلام تقاتله فقال أقاتله على دم عثمان و أنه آوى قتلته فقولوا له فليقدنا من قتلته فأنا أول من بايعه من أهل الشام فانطلقوا إلى علي فأخبروه بقول معاوية فقال هم الذين ترون فخرج عشرون ألفا أو أكثر مسربلين في الحديد لا يرى منهم إلا الحدق فقالوا كلنا قتله فإن شاءوا فليروموا ذلك منا فرجع أبو أمامة و أبو الدرداء فلم يشهدا شيئا من القتال حتى إذا كان رجب».

    Al-Munqeri, Nasr bin Muzahim, The Event of Siffin, p.191, researched, Abdus Salam Muhammad Harun, Cairo, Al-Mu’assisah al-Arabiyah al-Hadithah, second edition, Qom offset, Mar’ash Najafi Library Publications, 1404 A.H. (https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa23926#)

    And after mentioning this source. I want to ask again. That, why was Ameer Muawiyah (rta) was not giving man-power to Hazrat Ali (rta), so that he could avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta), by killing these more than twenty thousand people?

    • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

      Scholar December 8, 2023 at 1:14 am

      Mob lynching is Fasad fi alArd or Muharabah. In this situation according to Shariah, every member of the mob receives the same punishment of Taqteel (painful death) or banishment from the land. In this situation, an investigation for individual murder is not made. Malik Ishtar and Muhammad bin Abi Bakr were the leaders of the mob. This is an established historical fact.

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 8, 2023 at 5:51 am

    I am sorry, sir. But, I cannot agree with you in this matter. Even, if I want to. Because, There were a lot of companions who disagreed with the policies of Hazrat Uthman (rta), including, Syeda Aisha (rta). And Hazrat Uthman (rta) allowed them, to disagree with them, even the protests. Because, he was a caliph, who was appointed from the the rule of Qur’an. Not, as a member of a dynasty. He made some mistakes, during his caliphate. But, that does not means that I will forget his great character and good deeds. I provided the Shi’ite tradition, just to give the idea, that Uthman (rta) was not martyred by one person. Many historians (including, Gayyab in his book Fitnat Maqtal Uthman) said that, “it is clear that Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was innocent in the murder of Usman, just as the wolf was innocent of the blood of Yusuf ‘alayh al Salam.” The son of Ibn Abi Bakr, Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was in the tutelage of Syeda Aisha (rta). Also, when the camel of Syeda (rta) fell down during the Battle of Jamal, Ibn Abu Bakr, along with Hazrat Ali (rta) respectfully dropped Aisha (rta) to her home. And, even if we agree that, it was a Fasad fil-Ard. Then didn’t Muawiyah (rta) started Fasad fil-Ard. By, starting rebellion against the Rashidun caliph? I know he was the best politician of our Ummah. There was peace in his caliphate.

    But, why he was not giving man-power to Hazrat Ali (rta), so that he could avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta) when he was asking for it, over and over again? He also did not have people to run that system and avenge Uthman (rta). Kindly clarify this, Thanks.

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 8, 2023 at 5:56 am

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar December 11, 2023 at 1:36 am

    Dear brother, you have our point of view. You may explore the subject further. Opinions cannot be made in haste. We close the thread here.

    Thanks

  • Muhammad Sami ud-Din

    Member December 11, 2023 at 10:58 am

    @Irfan76 Ok sir. You are right we should not make any decision in hurry. But, please clarify that, why Ameer-i Muawiyah (rta) was not giving man-power to Hazrat Ali (rta), so that he could avenge Hazrat Uthman (rta). Ali (rta) was asking for it, over and over again? He also did not have people to run that system and to avenge Uthman (rta). Thanks.

    • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

      Scholar December 12, 2023 at 12:29 am

      The government of Ali was being run by the culprits. They had taken Ali to Kufa which was their center. Giving more power to Ali meant to give more power to these anarchists.

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar December 8, 2023 at 1:15 am

    You are advised to refrain from posting irrelevant stuff here.

    Thanks

The discussion "Ustad-e-Mohtaram On The Rivalry Between Hz. Ali (rta) And Hz. Muawiyah (rta) (2)" is closed to new replies.

Start of Discussion
0 of 0 replies June 2018
Now