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  • Creation Of The Universe

    Posted by Shaharyar Sabeeh on June 8, 2024 at 12:46 pm


    The translation of Surah Baqarah Verse 29 by Ghamidi Saheb and most other scholars gives an impression that Allah swt created Earth and its components first and then the later universe.

    وہی [68] جس نے تمھارے لیے زمین کی سب چیزیں پیدا کیں، پھر آسمان کی طرف متوجہ ہوا [69] اور سات آسمان استوار کر دیے، اور وہ ہر چیز سے واقف ہے۔

    If the 7 skies include the universe as a whole that we see other than earth, then this is in absolute contradiction with the modern cosmological understanding of how and when Earth and other celestial bodies came into being. Modern science tells us that they were being simultaneously formed after the explosion. Different objects had different time of cooling down etc.

    How should we understand this verse?

    Shaharyar Sabeeh replied 1 week, 3 days ago 3 Members · 29 Replies
  • 29 Replies
  • Creation Of The Universe

    Shaharyar Sabeeh updated 1 week, 3 days ago 3 Members · 29 Replies
  • Mubarak Bhatti

    Member June 8, 2024 at 1:50 pm

    To understand this verse:

    1- it should be ready as one reads a product of language used to convey a certain meaning, not necessarily engineering level details.

    2- One should fully understand science first before declaring a part of the scripture as disproved by science.

    3- if you can please explain how does science define the word “sky”, I’ll present to you latest understanding of science regarding the phenomenon related to your definition of the word “sky”. And, then you can decide if you’ve discovered a mistake in Quran.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member June 9, 2024 at 2:13 am

      1. This book is revealed by The God Almighty, the all knowing and the most perfect. Therefore, to demand engineering level details to be correct is the least we can ask for.

      2. That’s right. And I am just a student of science. I’m sure you have knowledge way more than myself.

      3. As for the definition of sky, it is the celestial sphere which is concentric to earth on which all the bodies appear to drift. Of course, this is an abstract idea defined for our easiness to have a reference point.

      ” And, then you can decide if you’ve discovered a mistake in Quran.”

      Astaghfirullah. I don’t know what do you mean by that.

    • Mubarak Bhatti

      Member June 9, 2024 at 2:29 am

      Shehryar sahb: when we respond to atheist arguments, we know that people who raise these questions with us do not do so after they have carried out some original work. They have been hearing about those questions from atheists and don’t get good answers from scholars. They themselves have poor understanding of both science and scripture.

      I knew from your use of word “explosion” for Big Bang that you haven’t studied science after high school.

      Of course, Allah should be able to provide engineering level details of everything, but He closed the window of revelation 14 centuries ago. And, even when revelations were being made to Allah’s prophets, Allah answers whatever questions He decides to answer, none can “demand” answers from Him.

      However, science cannot disprove anything stated in the scripture, if there is a God and scripture is from Him.

      So that is the basis of “scientism” (atheism) a system of faith based on presumption that science will one day prove faith in Allah to be wrong and baseless.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member June 9, 2024 at 3:25 am

      Science is very broad. Actually I myself am a medical ‘science’ student. For me it has been 3 years studying science after my highschool.

      As for cosmology and astrophysics, that’s right. I used to study a lot in my highschool but left out on many things after getting into university.

      These days I’m trying to recatch up to many things in conjunction with The Holy Quran.

      And I didn’t use the word ‘demand’ in its literal sense.

      One must read and try to understand the word in the context that it is being used in.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member June 9, 2024 at 3:34 am

      And by the way, you didn’t elaborate more on what was meant when you said ”And, then you can decide if you’ve discovered a mistake in Quran.”

      Kindly elaborate the relevance of this.

    • Mubarak Bhatti

      Member June 9, 2024 at 4:53 am

      Sabeeh sahb: I made it very clear that what you wrote as initial question was not a question. It is a common and regular attack of atheists on the validity of scriptures.

      To say that you can decide if you’ve discovered a mistake in the scripture was aimed at making you realize that:

      1- when you ask questions they should be phrased like questions.

      2- If you phrase it like an objection (reference your phrase that included the word “contradiction” and overall form and content of your long paragraph, which is in a conclusive tone, as if conveying settled and agreed upon truths of science.) It is a typical tactic of militant atheists.

      So, if you overheard it from someone, it was important to make you realize that the ideas you seem to believe in so firmly are simply very ignorant.

      I say this to you in all sincerity and without a fee for my time. (Please remember that you pay heavy fee to your medical college, and do not know what’s my teaching fee and how many times more than your medical professors. And, no fee is charged on this forum).

      Every human and especially students and scholars should first learn how to learn. That would include learning right mannerisms to attend a professor’s class, a scholar’s lecture, or a discussion among well educated people. Academically correct use of language is also a prerequisite of participation in any learning process.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member June 9, 2024 at 7:05 am

      1. The question was only on how we should understand this verse. It was more about translation. It is due to the fact that a few years ago there was this viral clip of Dr. Zakir Naik where he told his point of view regarding the translation of the word as ‘simultaneous to’ rather than ‘then’.

      Ghamidi Saheb usually explains things with the most up to date and clear understanding as well, so while just casually reading the translation, when I came up to this verse it reminded me of that previous debate.

      2. “it was important to make you realize that the ideas you seem to believe in so firmly are simply very ignorant.”

      I think you are being unnecessarily presumptive trying to give an impression as if I have finalized my beliefs about The Holy Quran being in contradiction to modern science. That is neither the case nor the truth.

      3. You mentioned mannerism. Did any of my comment offend you?

      I think this discussion has unnecessarily gone from asking a genuine and well formulated question about the verse translation to getting accused of having my beliefs backed by ‘militant atheist’ mindset, fees of Mr. Bhatti many times more than med professors, and platform fee stuff.

      I have been putting many questions on this platform for the past few months and have been getting some really well articulated responses almost everytime.

      When we engage at a platform designed on Q/A format, we all must learn to engage to other people in a respectable way that is non-narcissistic rather than taking things too personal.

      The response was already deeply rooted into a prior belief that whosoever questions about the verses of the Quran regarding cosmology/astronomy must have got it from some atheist.

      Leaning how to take up and analyze a question is also a skill and that should be learned before throwing unrelated paragraphs.

      I won’t be indulging here any further.

      Thank you for your time.

  • Mubarak Bhatti

    Member June 8, 2024 at 3:01 pm

    Here is how I would attempt to understand this ayat.

    1- it is Allah who made everything that is in Earth for you (i.e. mankind).

    Everything that Allah made for Earth includes the material that still arrives on Earth everyday. It is called “star dust”, that falls from outer space.

    Heavy metals such as iron and all elements above it in the periodic table are created when a star burns all it’s hydrogen and starts fusing helium into carbon and heavier elements up to iron. Gold and higher elements like uranium are produced when a star explodes in a supernova, and/or two neutron stars collide. All that material arrives at Earth everyday. So that process of material made for Earth reaching Earth continues to this day.

    2- Allah then turned toward sky and made seven of them.

    Word “sky” was spoken to an audience in Southern Arabia 14 centuries ago. Let’s see what should they understand from the word sky. They were traders, travelers (nomads), and sailors. They sailed the Mediterranean, Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and Indian Ocean. They crossed their vast deserts. They knew and used astronomy – stars and constellations, could map movements of celestial bodies to navigate.

    So by sky they should understand what modern science calls “observable universe”.

    So in this ayat, Allah has informed that he has made seven of the kind they see in their night sky. The ayat accordingly ends with praise of Allah who knows everything.

    Therefore, seven skies can mean seven universes.

    Only Allah knows exact meaning of it, until we are able to figure it out ourselves with progress of science.

    Mathematically, possibility of multiple universes is predicted by String Theory in Physics. While scientists agree that the math is correct, but there may never be any means available to us to experimentally prove it.

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar June 8, 2024 at 8:29 pm

    They were created simultaneously. Then further developments were made in the earth first and then the skies, which were in the form of a smoke, were made into seven heavens. See for details the verses 41: 9-12.

    • Mubarak Bhatti

      Member June 9, 2024 at 1:56 am

      Dr. Irfan sahb: thank you for sharing proper reference to the ayaat of Quran. I listened to recitation and translation several times.

      The subject is warning against shirk. Reference to Allah’s acts of creation of heavens (as in sky or universe) and earth is made to impress upon mankind that He has no rival.

      The same subject of creation of heavens and earth in Genesis (bible) became target of atheist attack during the period of political revolutions in 16th century Europe.

      Whereas, ayat 12 that says Allah “revealed/inspired, in each “heaven”, its “command” is the foundation of modern science.

      Because Galileo and Sir Isaac Newton (and everyone else at that time) believed in Allah and were looking for Laws of Allah (later to be called laws of nature) that govern the physical universe because they knew from scriptures that Allah made everything with power of His intellect and is governed by His commands. That’s why laws of physics are called “laws”, which would not be a correct use of word law if they did not believe in the divine Lawgiver/Lawmaker.

      Ayat 12 informs us that each of the seven universes has its own set of laws of physics. Theories about multiple universes in physics are based on the idea that slight changes in value of “constants” of physics can create different universes.

    • Shaharyar Sabeeh

      Member June 9, 2024 at 7:08 am

      Jazak Allah Dr. Irfan. I just read the Ghamidi Saheb’s commentary the detailed version of the verses that you referenced.

      Detailed verses seem to explain the brief ones very clearly here.

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar June 10, 2024 at 12:58 am

    Polemic and disrespectful remarks are not encouraged here. I urge the participants to stop the conversation further. Or we have to close this thread. Thanks.

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