-
Does God Lie?
If God is almighty that means he should have the ability to lie. How then, can we be certain he does not lie to us?
-
117 Replies
-
Does God Lie?
updated 3 years, 9 months ago
6 Members
·
117
Replies
-
CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK SO HEAVY THAT HE CANNOT LIFT IT?
-
Brother could you please explain that question too?
-
For the rock question it goes against logic – it is like saying can God die- this is against logic and the attributes of God. But why can’t God choose to lie? It is not an illogical question like the rock one is it?
-
It is a similar type of question, google my question pls. you will see what typa discussions folks used to do in the past….Rock question is one of them 🌻
-
Could you post the link please?
جزاكم الله خيرا
-
Thanks brother that really really helps. I have one more question. Why is creating out of nothing and making a 90 year old pregnant logically possible- but not the rock question. The definition of a 90 year old woman includes that she cannot give birth- so how can God create this logical impossibility. Creating something out of nothing is logically impossible- so how is this tackled?
-
And brother I don’t think it is a logical impossibility for God to lie- I don’t think these questions relate?
-
-
Actually, I think that an omnipotent entity itself is logically not possible, as Sohail bhai gave example of rock question. But somehow if we leave the logical absurdity of such a question premise, something like can God create a triangle with 4 sides ?
Leaving it aside, ability to lie is not a logical absurdity, it is a real ability displayed by humans and probably animals too, so we can really experience it and see it. We say Allah is merciful (without actually showing any example of mercy without creation), which is a human attribute too. Similarly lying is a human attribute too, so the question makes perfect sense.
Does God have the ability to lie ?
-
Let’s discuss the possibility of omnipotence somewhere else and yes brothe Sohail- I agree with brother Sameer as to the question being valid- lying is not a logical impossibility
-
-
We can touch base on the related question as well : Is lying immoral ? Is it intrinsically a bad thing to lie ? For humans or for God as well ?
-
Lying is permitted in certain occasions eg when you are trying to protect someone’s feelings I think. But when someone’s life or wealthy is in question lying is always wrong- i mean when the lying leads to harming life or wealth. When lying is done to protect life wir wealth I think it is also allowed.
I think it would be immoral for God to lie to us as it wastes our life and wealth.
-
Lying to protect someone’s feeling is permitted??
If a polytheist or a homosexual asks us, if it is a sin to do idol worship or engage in homosexual activity, and we know that telling the truth may hurt his feelings, is it permitted to say that Allah doesn’t consider it wrong to do idol worship or homosexual acts?
-
Sorry I meant like if a wife cooks food and you don’t want to anger her so you say yes it is nice. Not the other category you mentioned
-
Or if a mother is depressed and you tell her your food is bad it will cause even more harm to her
-
How far is it moral to lie ? How can hurting some feelings is ok but other feelings need be protected and lying is permitted in this case ? If we lie to wife even if she cooked bad food, she will not improve next time either.
-
I think a principle could be of the person is sinning you can’t say that it is ok to not hurt their feelings. But bad cooking is not a sin
-
I want to take it outside the purview of Islam.. and judge if lying is immoral independent of Islam. In other words, even if God/Allah didn’t tell us that lying is bad/sin, would we consider lying is bad independently ?
-
Bad cooking can lead to food poisoning and can cause big harm. If we lie to her, she will not improve her cooking.
-
If there is a health problem then it comes under putting people’s lives under danger. I’m talking about a bit too much salt. I’m not sure if lying is inherently wrong
-
-
If lying is inherently not wrong, why does God not lie (assuming he has the ability to lie) ?
-
Hopefully someone can answer this
-
I think the answer is God is free to do what he wants. We have to trust that he will reward us and take him on his word
-
And also the word of God given in his book which is true tells us that God upheld his promise with other nations so there is no reason to believe he won’t do the same with us. But to what I know right now I think it is also a point that w shave to trust that God will do justice
-
1. How do we know the word of God in his book is true ?
2. Even if some words are true, some other words can be lie if he has the ability to lie . A liar does NOT always lie. Sometimes a liar can tell some correct/true statements as well.
-
Why we have to trust his word if God can lie also ? Does it mean that we have to trust a possible lie ?
-
I think this would lead to skepticism. This is not how you live life normally. So why are you doing this for God. God has given no indication that he is a liar. Will you now not give your children inheritance because they may actually not be your children. There is no reason to believe why not. There is no reason to believe God is a liar so there is no reason to believe that he has or will lie. On the other hand there is ample evidence he tells the truth from the miniature days of judgement and his book
-
I am not saying God is a liar. I am saying why we have to trust his each and every word if some words can be lie too ?
-
Because there is no reason to believe why he would lie when he says he is telling the truth and has given evidence that his word is true through his dealings with previous nations
-
Because we don’t trust a human who has told 9 truths that he will say the 10th truth as well . If an entity who has the capability to lie, has said 9 things as true, does it mean we have no reason to doubt that the 10th thing he told can be a lie ?
Logically, we can only make this claim if we prove that the writer of the book NEVER lies. Or it is not possible that he can lie. We haven’t yet proved either of these claims .
-
We do practically trust a human like that in my experience
-
Practically yes, because we make a reasonable assumption that he is more likely to say the 10th thing as true as well. However, logically we can’t make this claim. If someone asks us to be sure that this person won’t lie in the 10th thing, we can’t be sure.
Coming to God, since he has the ability to lie, it is possible that some verses in the book are lies.
-
But we have no reason to believe other than guesswork and assumption and conjecture that it would be a lie so we should the same way we would trust our wealth and lives with a truthful trustworthy human – we should do the same with God. We do not know if throw human will turn on us and kill us- but we have no reason to believe it either if he has protected us for 15 years. The same is with God- he has proved himself to be true for since time began- so we should have no qualm fully submitting to him
-
First of all, God hasn’t proved himself to be true forever. Second, I am not asking if we should consider the verses to be lies. I am asking that just because Qur’an is the word of God, he can still put some false statements in it.
-
In your earlier post you said :
“I think it would be immoral for God to lie to us as it wastes our life and wealth.”
So, we think there is something inherently wrong in lying ? Does God have the ability to be immoral ?
But later you said:
“I’m not sure if lying is inherently wrong”
I could not understand which part of your statement is your true opinion.
-
-
To some extent we have a reflection of God’s attributes and because of that we can differentiate good from evil (goodness is innate while evil is a product of undue influence of our wishes, emotions, biases and ego); and we know lying is an evil act in general then how can we, while born with consciousness of differentiating good and evil, associate evil with God?
God is omnipotent, but God is all goodness and all just. Being just is a permanent attribute of God and it is this justness that demands God not to lie.
God can lie but God has made it clear that He is just therefore, there is no possibility of God lying.
-
What if God lies that he is just?
-
Yes, that is my question as well.
-
So far everything through divine revelation fits perfectly in the whole framework of this world and I haven’t found any inconsistency to attribute trait of lie with God. There’s no end to hypothetical possibilities, you can put ‘what if’ before anything and the list will be endless, but what basis you have that God has lied? I can give you many to prove that God has kept his words so far, whether it be about the nature of this test, the nature of Good and Evil, the prophets sent to complete His Hidayah, the list is endless indeed.
Please also refer to this video from 53:14 to 55:06. It will give you further insight into this topic Insh’Allah.
-
Nobody is claiming that God has lied. The question is can the God lie ? In other words does he have the ability to lie ?
Any entity which has told 9 truths till now, there is no guarantee the entity will say the 10th thing as true as well.
Also, how do you prove that God’s word has been proven true so far ? It can NOT be verified. It is only based on belief.
-
-
I don’t know how can you say that God is just when God is also called merciful . Both attributes can’t go together.
Just because God says she is just, it doesn’t prove it. That statement can also be a lie.
-
A judge who is following the principle of justice has to punish the culprit, he can’t show mercy to him. Allah seems to show mercy to some criminals, and I find it contradictory to the concept of being just, specially when Allah’s mercy is based on arbitrary selection rather than a sound principle.
-
A weird but related question : IF we accept that God is omnipotent and he has the ability to lie, how do we prove it ? Unless God lies, it can’t be proven that he has the ability to lie. It will just be an assumption. It can ONLY be proven once we observe a lie from God. But since, such an observation will prove God to be a liar, we are stuck.
That’s why I have the problem with omnipotent entity itself. Somehow the logical consistency doesn’t hold true .
-
I justice concept is like this I think. When you don’t pray or fast you are infringing the rights of God- he can forgive if he wants and he is merciful. But if you murder someone or steal only he can forgive you- and you will also have to ask forgiveness from God
-
Allah says that he doesn’t forgive shirk but MAY forgive anything less than that. So, I believe shirk (which is a crime against God) will not be forgiven, but rape and murder which is a crime against another human MAY be forgiven by God. How is it justice and how is it merciful ?
-
You have to ask forgiveness from the person and God- to my knowledge God won’t forgive a crime done against another human
-
Unless the human forgives I mean
-
When will a murdered or raped woman get a chance to forgive the culprit on judgement day?
-
On judgement day is the answer
-
I think it would be on judgement day I’m not sure. I mean I’m not sure that forgiveness by humans will occur on judgement day. But on that day no one will have wealth for compensation rather deeds will be swapped – good for bad.
-
Are you saying that on judgment day, before announcing the judgment for someone, Allah will ask the raped/murdered woman her opinion before announcing the judgment ?
-
It’s not an opinion. Her right of honour and protection was usurped so she will decide whether she forgives it. I’m not sure if she will be allowed or will want to forgive- but that’s the concept. I think
-
Which verse says this that her decision of forgiveness will be taken into account on judgement day, please explain .. also what does it mean that Allah does NOT forgive shirk ? If he is merciful , he should.
-
Basically God will forgive minor mistakes – you can res duo on this in the Quran. But intentional shirk without repentance will never be forgiven by the mercy of God
-
But you said God will show mercy by forgiving the crimes against God.. but now you are saying that Shirk will not be forgiven.. so where is the mercy ?
-
That is the one crime God has said he will not forgive without repentance. Otherwise he will be merciful and forgive mistakes. It doesn’t negate mercy
-
If a human ruler says : Come here and daily salute me .. else you will be burnt alive.. but since I am merciful, I will forgive you if you miss a day or two.. BUT if you ever salute anyone else apart from me, and don’t apologize, I will burn you alive.
Will you call such a ruler merciful ?
-
For this you have to understand why God is worthy of worship and we can start a new thread
-
I am not asking if God is worthy or not.. I am only asking where is the mercy if she punishes people for associating partners with her… a side question: Does Allah forgive atheism or not ?
-
God will forgive all that he wants according to his law. The point is the concept that shirk is wrong is clear- therefore the people will no argument for oh we made a mistake
-
Even rape and murder, and homosexuality is also wrong, apparently listening to lewd music is also wrong.. but Allah forgives all that, but doesn’t forgive shirk only .. why ?
-
It is a according to God’s law. Please look at the new thread and wait for someone to answer
-
Sam Did you read that book which I’ve recommended you of Hamza:- divine reality
If you have then you might not raise this question
-
Could you summarise?
-
the atheist grossly
misrepresents the comprehensive Islamic conception of God. God is
not only The-Merciful and All-Powerful; rather, He has many names
and attributes
-
I don’t really have time to read random books .. please provide your argument here..
-
-
Repeat :
A weird but related question : IF we accept that God is omnipotent and he has the ability to lie, how do we prove it ? Unless God lies, it can’t be proven that he has the ability to lie. It will just be an assumption. It can ONLY be proven once we observe a lie from God. But since, such an observation will prove God to be a liar, we are stuck.
That’s why I have the problem with omnipotent entity itself. Somehow the logical consistency doesn’t hold true .
-
Ok here is my research to the topic question:
There are three possibilities, either God always Lies, or he always tells the truth, or he sometimes lies and sometimes tells the truth.
God does not always lie because we have proof of his judgement coming true and his warnings coming true.
He does not sometimes lie and sometimes tell the truth because this requires a specifier. A specifier is a cause/reason.The need for the specifier can be shown in this analogy. If there is a field with 10 sheep in it there could be one sheep. A specifier is required to make one of the possibilities true. For example the specifier could be a wolf which Herded did either one sheep or 10 sheep. This means that the number of sheep is contingent on a specifier. Since God or any of his attributes cannot be contingent A possibility of either truth or falsehood cannot exist it can only be one or the other.
Therefore by the process of elimination God can only tell the truth.
This does not affect omnipotence As it is included in the definition of God that he is not contingent
-
Speech is an attribute of God. It is either true or false.
If the speech is true it cannot change to be false. This is because if it changes this means the necessary nature of God was not necessary to begin with- as it has changed. This means that God would be contingent which goes against the definition of God.
And we know from the past God has told the truth.
The same way knowledge is an attribute of God. He can’t be all knowledgable one day and then ignorant another day. Because this implies change. And this change means there was nothing necessary about being knowledgeable- so this being is not God.
-
How is speech an attribute of God which is either true or false? If it is true today, it can be false tomorrow also.. what prevents it ? We are only talking about God’s communication to the humanity, not his entire dealing.
God changes his message to the humanity many times. So, how is it that you are saying he can not one day say truth and other day say lies.
-
I have explained it above- the change implies that there was nothing necessary about the former state. This means contingency is God. Which is irrational and goes against the definition of God.
The message changes?
Understand the difference between speech and utterance. The speech is eternal and unchanging. The utterance is created and verbalised at a later date
-
Understand the essence of speech. The internal request is kalaam nafsi- internal speech. The reality of me wanting water is exactly that- a reality. The way I utter or make this request known is kalaam lafthi- this can change- from language to language – context to context etc
-
-
I am asking about God’s lies only in terms of his message to the humanity.. as that is the only interaction possible with humans. What prevents that to be lies ? If God is unable to tell a lie, why is he omnipotent ?
-
Did you not read what I sent above? Omnipotence does not mean ability to conduct illogical tasks. You will say why can’t God create a square circle. I have explained above how if the attribute of speech is changed it will imply contingency. So your question is if God is omnipotent why can’t he not be God and be God at the same time. It is a rationally flawed question in its very essence
-
It does not matter if it is in terms with message to humanity or angels or jinn. The same attribute of speech is being used and it is eternal and unchanging
-
Again we see in the Qur’an different verses saying opposite things and earlier verses being abrogated, it is the view of many scholars.. so how can the speech not change ?
Lying is not illogical task . I don’t understand how is lying an illogical task when humans can lie.
-
Lying and telling the truth at the same time implies change in the attribute of speech which causes contingency which is illogical to attribute to a being called God.
Opposite verses?
Abrogation?
-
You cannot ascribe human contingency to God. We are contingent- we change- there is nothing necessary about us
-
We change, and God doesn’t change.. so being able to change is an ability God doesn’t have.
This is the point.
-
I am not talking about the attribute of God .. I am talking about any entity’s ability to lie. Now if some other attributes of God prevent this ability, then it is sure that God doesn’t have it.
Don’t bring other attributes of God (which you define) to say that ability to lie is an illogical premise. Any entity, which lacks an ability, is not omnipotent. Now, you may want to call it God or not God, is a different question. You think God has some other attributes of speech, which is God’s own issue. It has nothing to do with omnipotence/ability to lie contradiction.
-
The attributes are not separate from the being. Who said I define them? Is speech not an attribute?
I have made it clear how the attributes of God (which are not separate from him) make it illogical for him to lie and tell the truth at the same time. Omnipotence is not the ability to perform irrational tasks.
Any necessary being would have this applied to them.
-
Omnipotence is the ability to perform ANYTHING. Unless you come up with different definition of omnipotence.
It is quite possible for me to lie and tell the truth next day.. it is not possible for God, that means in this field, I am more capable than God. If some other attribute of God, make it impossible for him to conduct a task, it makes him incapable.
However, no one can make a square triangle.. it is logical absurdity.
-
Omnipotence is the ability to do anything that is possible. Don’t compare yourself to God. You can lie and tell the truth because you are contingent. You cannot only tell the truth or only lie. God is the necessary existence. It is not some ‘other attribute’. All attributes are part and parcel of God. Because God is necessary then no contingency can exist in his being. Lying and telling the truth at the same time indicates change and therefore contingency. Therefore it is not possible for any necessary being to do both. And as God is the necessary being he cannot do this. Therefore it is like saying why can’t God exist and not exist at the same time. It is an absurdity. I’ll say it again- omnipotence is not the ability to conduct absurd or irrational or illogical tasks
-
We all the time compare God with human yardsticks only. Omnipotence is the ability to do anything .. not only possible.. because if something is not possible, then the entity is not omnipotent .
When you say God is merciful.. do you not use human concept of mercy ?
-
If the something that is not possible is a logical absurdity then then the omnipotence is not affected. I have shown above how lying and telling the truth is one of those things.
How is this relevant?
-
Anyway I am going now talk later إن شاء الله
-
It is because as a human I have shown this is possible . All concepts are judged by human parameters only. When you say God is merciful, we ONLY understand human definition of mercy and how other humans have displayed it. We don’t apply the logic that God’s mercy is different and we can’t apply human standards to it.
Omnipotence and inability to lie are contradictory for humans. Now if God has some attributes which make it impossible to lie, then God is not omnipotent.
-
-
You are saying that humans can lie but God can’t lie, because God’s nature of being is making lying an absurdity.. that’s the point. If God’s nature itself is such that its attributes contradict each other, then that is the point I am raising.
If everything was clear and consistent, we would not be even having this discussion.
It proves that God’s necessary existence and omnipotence come in the way of God’s ability to lie. Any entity which by its own attributes fails to do something, is not omnipotent.
-
Does his necessary existence and omnipotence come in his way to exist and not exist and the same time? Is this an ability that affects omnipotence? No? You are comparing human values that entail contingency to not a non-contingent being.
-
Let me talk in a different way..
Omnipotence has no relation with speech being eternal or someone being necessary existence . It is not part of the definition of omnipotence. It is God’s attribute, but not necessarily the attributes of a general omnipotent entity.
I am not comparing human or God values.. I am only going by definition of omnipotence.
-
.
-
-
The link you quoted just avoided the question and specially his comment that bringing omnipotence is completely irrelevant. No, it is not irrelevant at all .
Just define omnipotence independent of God, and then try to apply the criterion of omnipotence on God. There will be some contradiction you will see.
-
Brother omnipotence is not relevant here. The question is not ‘can God lie?’. Because that assumes and implies a n anthropomorphic nature of God.
You are thinking speech is :
Speech(t) = X
where t denotes the moment at which God speaks and t belongs to the set of natural numbers
and X denotes the statement uttered by God
so now lets imagine a temporal series of events
Speech(2008) = Barack Obama won the elections
Speech(2012) = Barack Obama won the re-election
Speech(2016) = Barack Obama resigned from office
these are all true statements
now let’s imagine a false statement
“Barack Obama has two heads”
is it possible for ” Speech(2017) = Barack Obama has two heads ” to happen?
no? oh dear Allah lacks the ability to say something
yes? oh dear Allah is a liar.
This is the problem. God’s speech is not a function.
The question should rather be ‘Can God’s speech contain lies?’ And I have explained above how that is not true
-
Is Qur’an a speech of God ? Didn’t it come to Prophet over the period of 23 years ? Some verses were specific to certain events in Prophet’s time .. so how can it not be time dependent ? The directives changed over the years.
-
Please read the post above by Imaam razi
-
Give me a hadith from Prophet which explains it.. I want to hear the direct word of God or Prophet.. because scholars are using their own meaning for it, which can be flawed.
-
Please read it and you will realise that it is a simple concept- you just need to grasp it
-
If it is such a simple concept, I want it to be from God himself or Prophet at least.
-
Surah Hajj 6
-
Where does this verse explain it ? It just says Allah is Truth.
-
Let me find the exact ayah it will take some time. But until then- all attributes of God coexist so the speech must be true if God is true. And therefore as explained above can’t also contain lies
-
Do you think deception is part of lying? Here is the verse 4:42. Did Allah lies to the hypocrites ?
Mohsin Khan: Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little.
Deceive definition : deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.
-
It is not compulsory for deception to entail lies. Eg someone asks me is your brother here. I point to my palm and say he is not here.
-
Did you check the definition of the word deceive ?
Deceive definition : deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain.
-
How is my example not deception and is lies?
-
So, we can say God is capable of deception .. right ?
-
He deceived those according to his law who deserved to be deceived. He has also promised justice remember this
-
I am not asking the people he deceived, deserved it or not..
I am only and simply asking .. Is God capable of deceiving people ? If yes, it means God is capable of deliberately causing some people to believe something that’s not true…
Agree ?
-
And he does so according to his justice
-
That’s fine .. but we have proven that he has capability to deceive people.. and he also did deceive some people..
Is deception part of his attributes then ?
Also, a side point : I asked in the intercession on judgement day thread, you mentioned earlier that the raped woman’s opinion will be taken before Allah forgives the rapist on judgement day..
Can you answer my question there on judgment day intercession thread ? When her opinion will be asked ?
Also, if a raped woman forgives her rapist, does it mean justice will not punish him after that ? Is rape no longer a crime after the woman forgives the rapist ?
-
-
As I said .. if you are saying God can’t lie, then God is not omnipotent. I understand you are not comfortable with bringing omnipotence into discussion, because it troubles the entire consistency.
Let me take another example: Can a perfectly honest man cheat ?
No.. because an honest man can’t be honest if he cheats, but then such a man lacks the ability to be street smart and cheat. I wouldn’t call such a man omnipotent.
You can’t say that cheating is logical absurdity for an honest man, hence the question itself is invalid. No.. honesty itself is a blocking quality for that man to be cheating.
-
This discussion has grown too big so I’m closing it. This is not to stop you from discussing it any further. Please don’t hesitate to create a new discussion if you want to continue discussing the same topic. This is just to keep from scrolling too much just to find the latest reply.
Sponsor Ask Ghamidi
The discussion "Does God Lie?" is closed to new replies.
