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Point Of Circumcision
What is the point of circumcision because it seems that urine drops don’t get trapped in the foreskin and it doesn’t come in contact.
I base this on talking to my friends and reading articles . They just retract their foreskin
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56 Replies
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Point Of Circumcision
updated 3 years, 7 months ago
4 Members
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56
Replies
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Apparently they are just able to slide the foreskin back and then clean like normal. There seems to be no issue. Why then do we circumcise?
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The similar point can be made with, for example, if someone only drinks a small amount of alcohol which doesn’t intoxicate him or when someone takes good care of hygiene in general but doesn’t trim his armpit or pubic hair, so what difference does it make?. The list can be endless and I think, there are certain things related to cleanliness/purity/hygiene that a conscious soul can take care of all the time based on his nature/fitrat but there can be issues w.r.t application of those things, and secondly, not everyone can stop at certain limits (e.g in case of alcohol) or not everyone can be conscious/vigilant enough about making sure that no impurity attaches to his body (e.g. what you mentioned in your example regarding foreskin). There is no guarantee that every uncircumcised person is always taking care of this fact in its entirety. That is the reason why certain things have been made clear in religion w.r.t application of those things and secondly, certain dubious matters have been made clear as well. This is the relationship between religion/revelation with fitrat/nature.
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But bhai there seems to be a few issues
It doesn’t seem right to just cut off a body part when you can very easily teach hygiene.
You are doing this without the baby’s consent. It is not cutting hair or nails that grow back or (nails) father dirt or cause pain. But it is a permanent change.
Not everyone can be constant/vigilant about cutting nails so do we cut of the tips of our fingers? This would surely ensure the dirt would never gather.
I have heard circumcision is not fard and only mustahab. Who gets the reward of this- the child did nothing?
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People do not remain constant or vigilant in cleaning their backsides either- we don’t take any steps there because there seem to be none to take. Why in the case of circumcision then is any part of the human body cut off for its cleanliness. You can simply retract it – it is truly very simple and straightforward and then you can clean the same way with water.
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People usually compare circumcision with cutting hair but that makes no sense to me. How is cutting of hair which grows back and is dead cells the same as cutting live tissue?
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Please listen to this:
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Read the history of circumcision at wikipedia.
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In my view it’s only a cultural practice that Islam did not object just like hijama or cupping.
There are not proven benefits of such practices however there are proven risks that can create medical emergencies and deaths such as infection and excessive bleeding due to genetic disorders prevalent in a certain percentage of newly born babies.
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I think we have to be careful when reading about proven benefits. Because they don’t take into account drops of urine getting stuck that would affect our ritual purity
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Not just ritual purity, it belongs to basic purity which is required of Muslims at all times and hence greater sensitivity toward it and therefore, it can’t be left to discretion of humans like some other body parts.
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I think there is no point in discussing the rationale behind circumcision until we all agree that it is indeed a part of deen. We need to find the source and test it against the principles of determining sunnah.
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The history you shared is actually pretty interesting. However, in my view it goes to reinforce the understanding that it’s actually a religious practice.
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Some say it is mustahhab and not fard
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Unless we find an evidence that prophet SW ordain this as part of deen in public we cannot take it as sunnah. At best we can consider this as a part of arab culture to which Prophet Muhammad SW did not object.
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Where do you suggest that we find such evidence?
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Also br. Wadud’s point about circumcision and hygiene. It does seem aptly recognised as a myth by the brother and only people who dont wash would get this dirt gathering up that Hassan sahab spoke of. Personally i dont even find his belly button example apt. Dirt never gathers there for me. Just maintain hygiene.
Also making an irreperable change to a child is claiming they are your property which can be seen as morally reprehensible.
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but that’s medical hygiene. when it comes to ritual cleanliness the foreskin definitey captures urine and if water is not present to be poured over cleanlienss is very difficult. For example in public toilets we can wet a tissue and wipe away the urine. for an uncircumcised man this would not be possible and they would need running water
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if one pulls back the foreskin before peeing, how can a drop of urine get stuck there even if there is no water to wash the place?
Again we are discussing the rationale of circumcision without having found any evidence that makes it sunnah or part of deen.
I couldn’t find anything on the web that can prove this practice as sunnah. Maybe because it was never a sunnah. Just because many people are doing it we believe it’s a sunnah. We need to destroy this myth and save lives.
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Uncircumcized men: do you pull foreskin back when you pee, or just let it flow? from TooAfraidToAsk
Maybe someone can answer as it seems that as long as you make sure to pull it back hygiene is the same as a circumcised person. So why not just teach the hygiene rather than cut off the skin?
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What sort of evidence do you require? What is the evidence fajr is 2 rakah?
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Anything that can confirm prophet muhammad has ordained this IN PUBLIC as a sunnah or part of Deen.
I would expect the same for all other sunnah rituals e g prayers etc.
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would you like a hadith, because the practice of muslim is that its fard it seems
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what about the hadith of that the fitrah is five
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Only if a number of hadiths from various companions of the prophet SW confirm that the prophet Muhammad SW has given them something in public to practice as a part of Deen and he himself has practiced it and this practice is continued for generations afterwards will only confirm that it’s part of our deen. A news reported by single narrator in response to question or part of a discussion in a private gathering does not qualify as part of the religion.
2ndly, according to the 5th principle of determination of hadith, anything that is done in response to fitrah cannot be a sunnah. You can read it in Mazzan.
3rdly, the practice must be religious in nature. No practice can be religious in nature that has not consent of the subject.
4th, circumcision meets not a single principle out of the seven principles of determination of hadith as per mazzan.
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1. even if this is the case hadith should not be the proof you are asking for
2. this does not negate it being a religious practice- you can watch the latest video of the 23 series
3. the test is for the parent to carry out this comamnd of God- if the parents dont then the child should i think
4. Thats why it is part of the fitrah rather than a sunnah i guess
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3. How do you know the test is for parents and not the child? Please share the source?
4. If this is done as part of fitrah and not sunnah or part of deen, the discussion is closed. That was my point – it’s not religion.
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3. through reason
4. please watch the latest episode of the 23 series. take this as an example- the Quran says be kind to your parents- would we not know this if it was not part of the religion? of course we would. so this fitrah is made into shariah. same with circumcision.
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3. Nothing can be farther from reason than using a knife on your newly born for a religious ritual.
4. Being kind to parents is not a sunnah or a ritual. It’s a moral requirement. Cleanliness is fitrah but how one should get clean is not a concern of the religion. Making ablution is a ritual but that is done after you have cleaned yourself no matter how you do it. Therefore, if you tell me you need to ensure no dirt or urine drops i will agree but if u insist cutting the skin of others without their consent and that is to get yourself purified as the test is for you and not for the kid who is under the knife, it does not make sense. .
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3. if God has given me this command then the logic is that he gave me the command to do so. What about taking the life onf an animal as part of a religious ritual?
4. We could have been allowed to keep pubic hair clean or make sure to clean under long nails- but we were told to cut and maintain cleanliness in a specific way for both.
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3. Do you not cut the umbilical cord? Also if you feel that it defies reason, the reason of a huge majority of humanity, for as long as we know it, stands against that argument.
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The umbilical code belongs to the mother no the child. That is not a part of child body. Come on man dont be so innovative in defending a view that has not evidence for being a word of God.
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where does the mother’s body start and the child’s end? what evidence do you propose for this?
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it can be argued that mental damage is worse than physical most of the time. you send your child in the middle of the freezing night (UK winters…) to school. they have barely any time for free activities in the cold and all the daylight hours are spent in education. do you agree with this?
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Sending kids to school in winter without consent is not an issue as thats not a religious ritual. Home schooling is not a sin in Islam either.
But there is no compulsion in religion. There must be a nayyat and consent to please God to make any ritual religious.
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I think that some research on your part regarding the umbilical cord would be nice.
I am not defending any view – but I find all your arguments so far to carry no weight. You’re ignoring a practice that has been carried by all believers of prophets for as long as we know it, just because no single person reported it in a hadith.
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The practice can be cultural. All those sunnahs that have been removed from the list are also being practiced by the believers thru generations. cupping or hijama is another such example.
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pelase read this:
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If you can show that hijama is a practice that has been perpetually transmitted to us from the time of prophet SAW with the consensus of the entire ummah regardless of their origin, then of course it would be a sunnah. But sadly that’s not the case!
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Cutting the Umbilical code is a life saving activity. No consent is required from anyone.
Cutting the foreskin is modifying the body’s natural design without any compelling reason and without any medical advice.
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it is not a life saving activity.
it makes cleanliness extremely convenient and completely eradicated phimosis and baltitis etc. is this not compelling?
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Read some independent researches done on this issue. Avoid those coming from muslims for the risk of being biased. There is not evidence that makes circumcision a preferred practice. It has many cons tho. In case of infection or something circumcision may be recommended but cutting the skin of before any infection is like imputing a limb to avoid any chances of infected by gangrene in the future
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I have read many many sources- trust me. The comparison you gave is incorrect i think
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3. God has given command? Where? This is what i am looking for.
4. Cutting hair and nails are like asking cleaning dirts and drops. The hairs and nails are body secretions just like urine. Asking some one to cut off the tail of his cow to avoid urine splashing is different from asking him to ensure no cow urine drops on his cloths.
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3. in the sunnah implementation of the fitrah. scholars will do research to take away bidah and ghamidi sahab has done research in this very field. if you have some new evidence let us know.
how do you know to pray 2 for fajr? it is through this same sunna. if someone finds out it was 3 or 4 or 5 let them show where this started as an innovation
4. hair and nails are a secretion like urine? to maintain convenient cleanliness- the way God saw fit- he gave us this command.
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Sir Ghamidi must have done his research but that has not been shared. Br Hassan’s reply is not complete. We need to some more research on this. Like some other sunnah rituals were removed from the list, this one is the next one, in sha Allha. Lets clean up our religion.
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I didn’t see your criticism on the points Hassan sahab made. I might have missed it, but please share again.
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I have asked how this sunnah meets the 7 principles of determining sunnah and i am awaiting reply. I am not happy with all of his replies to my 7 points but i will ask questions one by one. Lets see
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Okay, but I’m not sure how the principles are violated in this case. This is a practice that has existed in believers before prophet SAW, and it has been perpetually carried out by believers after prophet SAW with consensus of the entire ummah regardless of their origin, and we find no evidence of any break in this tradition. It has also been written about in our books of jurisprudence. This is called tawatur. If something has transmitted to us with such strong evidence, then a hadith or two relating the same are not required to establish the authenticity of the practice.
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Beard is also the same. Slavery is also the same. There are cultural traditions that are being transferred thru the generations but they have nothing to do with religion.
The myth of ‘cleanliness thru circumcision’ has caused the confusion otherwise sir Ghamidi would have thrown this out of window ages ago.
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beard did not have ijma. not sure about slavery- but we have the Quran that negates slavery
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True but you got my point right. There are tons of popular “sunnahs” being practiced by the mainstream religion, which are not included in the list.
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I think if you reassess your understanding of concepts of sunnah, fitra, and hadith, as they have been explained by Ghamidi sahab in a lot of detail in various places, it will help clear the air. The examples of beard and slavery do not fit the criteria, but those are different discussions that I won’t comment on here in order to keep this discussion on track. There are other discussions on Ask Ghamidi regarding those topics that you can refer to. Also please don’t hesitate to start new discussions on any such topic.
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Ok i will read them again.
I understand all abrahamic traditions were not automatically included in Islam but prophet Muhammad SW picked and chose some of them and ordained them as sunnah after correcting or modifying the practice where necessary.
I expect a lot of historical records on how circumcision was added to the religion if at all and practiced by the early muslims. Lack of historical record indicates that it was merely a part of local culture that continued thru generations until now.
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‘Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. And there is not an absence of evidence- we have the fiqh books
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