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  • God Being Just Because We As His Creation Love Justice

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on January 25, 2021 at 9:26 pm

    I will be commenting on the arguments made by Ghamidi sahab here: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvDnnnkYLWQdvp6fCWJy-jzWgAAX_HKW6 .

    My question is- that Ghamidi sahab says that God is just because his creation lives justice. That all humans live adl and would never like injustice for their fellow man so their creator must be just. However- we find that there are psychopaths in this world. After all, they are a creation of God. And unlike normal humans who like justice, they live oppression and chaos. Being a creation of God, and using the same argument of a creator’s attributes showing up in their creation, shouldn’t this mean, أعوذ بالله من الشيىطان الرجيم , that the creator sometimes does injustice and oppression too?

    (Next part I don’t think Ghamidi sahab makes this argument)

    We say God does not lie because there would be no reason for him to. No greed since humans can’t give him anything. No force is being put upon him otherwise the universe would be in turmoil. I’ll concede that it couldn’t be a practical joke though I don’t see how we can prove it isn’t. But when someone asks us why did God create humans, or why did he create humans he know will go to hell, we simply say that the wisdom of God is greater snd that we cannot know his motivation. So, using the exact same argument, we could say that we do not know why God would lie to us.

    Is there any refutation to these points? As humans is our knowledge simply limited? Then why would we say that we are true as Muslims and atheists are wrong? We call upon the supernatural to explain this extraordinary universe, they call upon extreme chance to explain it. If the above points are answered with ‘human knowledge cannot answer’, then an atheist or agnostic person would be fully correct in their arguments to not submit to a God

    Faisal Haroon replied 3 years, 4 months ago 5 Members · 60 Replies
  • 60 Replies
  • God Being Just Because We As His Creation Love Justice

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 25, 2021 at 10:38 pm

    As far as your question about justice is concerned, there’s no one in the world who has put up a sign on their front door with invitation for others to come in and unjustly rob their house or rape their children. Even psychopaths who deal with others unjustly, do demand justice for their own selves.

    As for your second question, you know the rules of Ask Ghamidi well – only one question allowed per post. Also I have already answered that question about God lying before anyway:

    Discussion 30080

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 26, 2021 at 3:37 am

      So the psychopath wants justice for himself but not others. So why would we say God wants justice for others?

    • Afia Khan

      Member January 26, 2021 at 9:30 am

      Because Allah ST wants us to be just in his slavery too. And wants justice from us in Ibadaat and Muamlaat both.

      وَ مَا قَدَرُوا اللّٰہَ حَقَّ قَدۡرِہٖ

      I don’t know why your question remind me of this ayah.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 26, 2021 at 9:54 am

      Trust me, if I find any way to know that God is all just and everything that the abrahamic religions (of course Islam) say he is,

      .

      سأكون بإذنه اول من الذين يقدرونه حق قدره

    • Afia Khan

      Member January 26, 2021 at 10:04 am

      Inshallah. May Allah guide us all, Ameen

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor January 26, 2021 at 5:33 am

    Furthermore, a criminal in a court would not like to be justly punished, he would like to have special lenience shown to him, so this is another example of where justice doesn’t seem to manifest in humans

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 26, 2021 at 9:45 am

    That is not a valid example. The point is whether or not any criminal will be happy when an unjust punishment is rendered to him/her. The answer is a resounding no. As humans we are biased towards our own selves, so we have several motivations to be unjust. However, when the tables are turned, we always want justice.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 26, 2021 at 9:51 am

      Ok sure. We always want justice for ourselves. But who always wants justice for others? Isn’t that the more important concept? Psychopaths don’t. They want oppression and death for others. And it is this transitive concept that is important as God would be doing something transitively to us. All it seems to prove is that he would want justice for himself- but when it comes to others- some of his power seems to have manifested in a creation that wants justice for others, and some into a creation that wants oppression and pain for others

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 26, 2021 at 10:36 am

    I can only point out again that you should focus on your concept of God. You’re assuming Him to be just another human being, when He’s really our Creator, the Creator of this entire universe, the One who is free from any needs, and the One upon whom we so desperately depend upon. The very capacity of reasoning and logic that we use to understand Him and doubt Him are given to us only by His mercy. He is the very source and the embodiment of truth. Without Him granting us the ability to discern truth from falsehood, we are nothing more than piles of matter. That is who God is, and that is the concept of an ultimate Supreme Being that our fitra demands. If you think that you would be able to logically prove or disprove God, then please tell me what proof do you have for logic? None whatsoever, but your own God granted fitra.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 26, 2021 at 10:40 am

      Ok. Yes, he gave us this logic. Yes we rely on him. Yes we are mere piles of matter without him. I agree with all of this.

      I don’t understand what fitrah has to do with it. Fitrah is also a revelation right? So it’s truth value will also be judged. We as humans have the ability to go against our fitrah because we have freewill. We have the ability to challenge these preconceived notions whether they were society built or a priori.

      And I wholeheartedly agree that we have been granted the ability to discern truth from falsehood. So I amusing the same argument that I understood from Ghamidi sahab in his lectures I linked above and pointing out a flaw I see. I really really hope I am proven wrong because it is not easy for me to think these things and pray whilst having to think whether the being I’m worshipping is just. It is truly a great predicament for me that I just want peace from. This is why I keep on asking it. If I get an answer then my happiness would be boundless

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 26, 2021 at 11:02 am

    We have had many discussions about fitrah on Ask Ghamidi before. I suggest that you watch the series on fitrah by Ghamidi sahab again a few times and try to fully comprehend the points that he’s making. If you have any questions then please don’t hesitate to post. I will do my best to respond. Here’s is that series again:

    Discussion 30094

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 26, 2021 at 12:46 pm

      So what is the answer to the line of reasoning that psychopaths are a creation of God and want oppression for others therefore there must be some sort of want of oppression for others in the creator أعوذ بالله من الشيىطان الرجيم ?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 26, 2021 at 1:10 pm

      The line of reasoning itself is irrelevant, if you understand what is really meant by God. Chew on what I stated above for a while.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 5:58 am

      That is your idea of God. And many of them you can’t prove from what I have been pondering upon. How do you know he is free of needs? (Of course you can’t quote Quran until you prove he is truthful). And I don’t see how any of that leads to him being just either.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 26, 2021 at 7:56 pm

    I just ran into this discussion and thought I would share this with you as a reminder.

    Discussion 35268 • Reply 35306

    I know that you’re working extremely hard, but what you’re missing is the right approach. Deductively proving God, His justice, or other attributes is not possible. We can’t conclusively prove God before we accept. This is by design. Truth only becomes clear to us in stages. We are tested at every stage. One has to keep seeking guidance, wholeheartedly accept what’s received, protect it, be grateful for it, keep seeking more, and let the cycle repeat till the very end of our lives.

    Please refer to the following for details about the law of guidance, as well as our previous discussion on the topic:

    Discussion 6805

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 5:20 am

      The scripture confirms the hypothesis. But the hypothesis was wrong in the first place. This is to the reply below as well- the transitive justice and sense of it is what matters. And we find that some people do not care for transitive justice. So anything that scripture says, even if it is undoubtedly form the same creator of this universe, you have to prove its truth value.

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar January 26, 2021 at 9:56 pm

    God is Just in His scheme in its entirety when we add the hereafter with it. This world is for test. If there had been absolute justice here no test could have been possible.

    Not only Psychopaths but almost all criminals like to inflict pain and harm to others. They may enjoy it but they cannot say that they are doing a right thing. They too are not deprived of sense of justice.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 5:20 am

      Yes but the things that the criminals do is what matters. They do not have justice for other. So how can we say that the creator would have justice for others?

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar January 26, 2021 at 9:57 pm

    You may read my article on this topic

    http://alsharia.org/2021/jan/rehmat-adl-dr-irfan-shehzad

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 27, 2021 at 12:45 pm

    Audio response by Faisal Haroon.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 2:18 pm

      وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

      I understand where you are coming from more clearly now. My question would be then:

      I see the sun and know brightness because of it, my concept of light comes from the sun (of course assuming that there’s no other light source). But what evidence do you have, that there is a being, who we call God, who is just and truth? Because I can see the sun and I see it’s light. I cannot see God or any of the actions he has done so how do I know that he is truthfulness?

      I get everything I do from God, he is the one who gave me the ability to discern between truth and lies- sure- but it’s the ability to discern between truth AND lies.

      From what I understood from you it seems to be that God=truth, so to ask whether God is true is a pointless question. My question is why are you saying that God=truth? What lead you to this conclusion?

      If it’s the ability to reason between truthfulness and falsehood then how does that lead to God=Truth?

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 27, 2021 at 3:47 pm

    I cannot see God or any of the actions he has done so how do I know that he is truthfulness?

    Seeing something is not a prerequisite for something to be true. There’s overwhelming evidence for a Creator if you contemplate upon your own self as well as the universe around you. He is the very idea of truthfulness – there’s no point of trying to judge ‘His truthfulness’. Besides, you can establish His truthfulness from the historical evidence and the scripture.

    From what I understood from you it seems to be that God=truth, so to ask whether God is true is a pointless question. My question is why are you saying that God=truth? What lead you to this conclusion?

    I have no other source of truth. I can’t define truth. I don’t even know the concept of truth. The only way for me to discern truth from falsehood is what’s instilled in my fitra a-priori and that stems from God. Trying to judge God when He is the source of all truth is again trying to prove that the sun is bright when I can’t even have the concept of brightness without the sun.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 3:49 pm

      But the only reason I know falsehood is the same cause. So why wouldn’t the argument shift that way?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 4:28 pm

      Sorry which argument? I have made many!

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 4:29 pm

      I have no other source of truth. I can’t define truth.Sorry, I should’ve been more specific. The above reply is in response to this

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 4:34 pm

      Again I’m not sure what are you asking about that argument. Please elaborate.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 4:36 pm

      What I mean to say is that sure, the way you discern truth is from a God given ability. So if I understood your argument this means that since God gave you the ability to know truth then he must be truth. But that same God gave you the ability to know falsehood. So why wouldn’t he be a mix of the two? أعوذ بالله من الشيىطان الرجيم

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 4:46 pm

      You have to look at the holistic picture. My fitra demands a true and a just Creator. I have overwhelming evidence for one. Judging the evidence, my ability to reason only concludes a true and a just God. Other than hypothetical and speculative ideas, I have zero reason to doubt.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 8:27 pm

      Your fitra is a revelation from that same creator so you cannot use it as evidence to conclude that he is truthful.

      To trust your fitra to be true would be concluding that God is just when you have already claimed that in your premises.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 8:40 pm

      Okay I’m glad that you can see that. Pause here for a second… and then tell me what is not from the same Creator that you can use as an evidence? Your very ability to reason and use logic is also from the same Creator.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 8:44 pm

      Nothing is not from him. Which means falsehood must also be from him?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 9:08 pm

      Darkness doesn’t need any source. It’s just the absence of light. Similarly, falsehood doesn’t need a creator – it’s just the absence of truth.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 9:11 pm

      Very interesting. Thanks for the analogy- it helps a lot.

      So truth comes from Go. Ok. But why does this entail that lies never come from God? Why does this then mean, that God wouldn’t sometimes lie?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 9:32 pm

      I think that I have made my point before the best that I could. Feel free to explore this speculative line of reasoning, but as I have advised you before, it won’t lead you anywhere. We have zero evidence for what you’re suggesting, we have very strong evidence to the contrary, and as humans we have no sources of knowledge to help us explore any further.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 9:34 pm

      I think I’m understanding now.

      The reasoning is not speculative rather illogical. Because if God is the absolute reality and all truth comes from him, it is impossible for falsehood to be attributed to him, since anything he would do or say would instantly be truth as he is where we get the concept of truth from

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 9:37 pm

      Should I distribute mithai or is it too soon to be excited? 😂😂

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 27, 2021 at 9:38 pm

      What I’ve found out is that it’s usually always too soon to commit to any idea before you talk to an atheist/agnostic and get his perspective on it.

      But why not distribute mithai anyway 🤣🤣

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 27, 2021 at 9:41 pm

      I’ll wait for the distribution – for now I’ll just go eat some myself and call it a day!

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor January 28, 2021 at 9:46 am

    So after I’ve thought a bit more on this I thought about this side of the argument- anything God tells us, we have to take it as true as he is the definition of truth for us.

    But, couldn’t it be, that the definition of truth he is giving us is false, that since this is the only way for us to know anything, he is deceiving us?

    It is a very complex concept so let me know if it’s unclear.

    Basically that God = Truth (for humans), and there’s nothing we can do if the truth that has been instilled to us is actually based upon something that doesn’t correlate to reality.

    Is this simply where the boundaries of human knowledge would come? If so, how do we stop ourselves from this discomfort of this possibility?

    • Saba Madani

      Member January 28, 2021 at 10:54 am

      If the definition of truth He is giving us is false, so be it! We don’t need to know it nor do we have the ability to know it. It shouldn’t be our concern. Just believe in what He is saying whole heartedly and take comfort in it

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 10:55 am

      Then how can we love him if I’m the be ask of our minds we are wondering whether he is deceiving us?

    • Afia Khan

      Member January 28, 2021 at 11:14 am

      We can know Allah from all his attributes, from the holy books, from Ahadith, from ourselves, from nature, in every breath we take (can specially appreciate in this pandemic:)

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 28, 2021 at 10:23 am

    But, couldn’t it be, that the definition of truth he is giving us is false, that since this is the only way for us to know anything, he is deceiving us?

    This is called a logical absurdity. False according to what measure? God is the source of the very ‘concept’ well call truth. Other than switching words (true for false and vice versa), your question has no meaning.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 10:55 am

      False according to the measure that it doesn’t correlate to reality, but we are being deceived that it is the truth, since he is the source of our truth

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 11:06 am

      What reality?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 11:07 am

      The reality that we cannot access nor know. It would completely be up to him to revels it to us honestly or not

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 11:13 am

      So if there’s something that can’t be known, what’s the point other than wasting time and energy?

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 11:33 am

      Because we should know, or we want to know the actual truth.

      There’s the truth we know as humans because of God.

      And then there’s the truth that is not dependant in anyone knowing it, which would only be known to God.

      If I want to love God and I want to have full trust in him, do I just blindly follow snd turn of this speck of discomfort in my brain that the human truth he has given me is not the actual truth?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 12:12 pm

      Don’t forget that you’re a human. Anything that can be known by you has to be known with that in mind. It’s completely irrational and illogical to even assume that you can escape being a human and come up with some new definition of truth.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 12:14 pm

      So what evidence do we have, as humans, that the truth we are getting from God that is the truth for us is the actual truth which are the facts that are in correlation with the reality of the absolute affairs of the metaphysical reality? Wouldn’t your claim of it being the same truth be met by an atheist’s equally valid claim of it perhaps not aligning?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 12:47 pm

      If an atheist makes such a claim then other than giving him the address to the nearest psychiatric ward, I wouldn’t be able to help him any further. Not only I, but there’s no reasonable person on earth who would take such an atheist seriously. As a result of such a claim, he would be not only be denying all logic, syllogism, science, math, and reasoning, but he would in fact be denying his own existence.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 5:31 pm

      Why would we do such a thing? Why should we accept this knowledge as being true, just because not accepting it would lead to us having to reject everything we know? Surely that isn’t the scale on which knowledge is judged?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 7:05 pm

      That absolutely is the scale.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 7:06 pm

      How? The scale of knowledge should be what we find to be definitely true- not just ‘oh this means that all of our knowledge is false so we can’t accept it’.

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 7:15 pm

      My friend, what you’re suggesting denies the existence of all keywords in your comment – scale, knowledge, true, we. What you’re saying is correct, but only in our domain as humans.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 7:17 pm

      I know it does.

      Sorry- what I am saying is correct? So we do not have a way to tilt the issue either way right?

    • Faisal Haroon

      Moderator January 28, 2021 at 7:26 pm

      Once again, we must understand our place as humans, and work only within our domain.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 28, 2021 at 7:27 pm

      So our knowledge is merely pragmatic in nature? If I have understood correctly- our entire existence is based on a ‘perhaps’

  • Afia Khan

    Member January 28, 2021 at 11:11 am

    الَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْغَيْبِوَالَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ
    This is under Iman bil Ghaib and we are being told about them in Quran and by prophets.

  • Faisal Haroon

    Moderator January 28, 2021 at 7:37 pm

    To keep this discussion from getting side tracked (which it already has to some extent), I’m closing this thread. If there are other related issues that need clarification please feel free to start a new discussion.

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