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  • Is Our Knowledge Definite?

    Posted by Ahmad Shoaib on January 28, 2021 at 7:44 pm

    Discussion 41784

    This thread is a follow up from the last few replies that became tangents from the discussion linked above.

    We established that, as humans, the only source for us to know something as true, is God.

    So I ask- what if the ultimate reality- which is how the metaphysical reality actually is- is different to the truth God has decided to give us. If it is different, then everything we know must be rejected in the literal sense, but our knowledge that we use must only be relied upon in a pragmatic way.

    I don’t see any way to deny this concept/proposition.

    And if it is accepted, but we are told that ‘these are the human limits of knowledge’- then what ground do we have to stand on when a non-Muslim simply takes the above stance? What extra knowledge do we have that could deny this claim of theirs? When we are making a claim, that the knowledge we are getting is, in fact, in correlation with the metaphysical reality, we should have some sort of evidence to back it up. Simply saying ‘it is not in the domain of humans to know such things’ is not an argument. It just means that we cannot say anything either way- so we are in a limbo; our entire existence, is based on something we cannot actually know.

    Ahmad Shoaib replied 3 years, 4 months ago 4 Members · 18 Replies
  • 18 Replies
  • Is Our Knowledge Definite?

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar January 30, 2021 at 10:40 pm

    This is a speculation that God might have told us something wrong or nor real. We have no way to verify it it is the case. If it turned out to be something else, we will discuss it then.

    As far as we know God, he needs not to tell us any thing wrong and he claimed that he told us truth.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor January 31, 2021 at 8:36 am

      Yes but we cannot know God’s intentions. So to claim truth or falsehood on what he has given to us would both ways be speculative

  • Dr. Irfan Shahzad

    Scholar February 2, 2021 at 8:57 pm

    We can rely on God more than any one else. He has no reason to tell a lie. What we know from Him is news, not speculation, though we can’t verify it either .

  • Nadeem Minhas

    Member February 2, 2021 at 9:33 pm

    I am not totally clear about your argument Shoaib. Still I think the truth is the truth Allah told us is the truth which is within the limits of our 5 senses and limits of our knowledge.

    For example, this whole universe may be like a holographic reality created by Allah, but what does it matter to us. The truth is that based on our knowledge and 5 senses, it is real. So if Allah tells us it is real, it is real and a truth from our perspective and limit of knowkedge. If he would have told reality from his perspective and knowledge, we may not have understood and it may have sounded more untrue.

    Although I think this universe is fake from the perspective of Allah as something that is not permanent or dies, can’t be real.

    Also our knowledge is definitely not definite!

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 3, 2021 at 5:05 am

      That’s the issue- it is true only for us- it could actually, in metaphysical reality be false- which would mean if we were being deceived- we would have no way to do anything. How could we live God if we don’t have an argument against this?

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 3, 2021 at 5:19 am

      But if it is true from our perspective, it is an absolute truth. Because our test in this World is within the parameters of what we perceive as Truth.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 3, 2021 at 5:20 am

      It is an absolute truth for us- but our absolute truth is not absolute in metaphysical terms. So we may actually be being lied to. That’s the issue

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 3, 2021 at 5:32 am

      I do not agree with your assessment. Naoosobillah, Lie is also a very harsh word; especially for Allah…we must be super careful!

      Truth is relative word and let’s leave it to that.

      I think what Allah told us a truth that is within the parameters of this extremely vast universe and a perfect truth within the realm of our test…that is all that matters to me within the capacity of my knowledge and intellect.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 3, 2021 at 5:36 am

      Well that’s your claim- that the truth you are given is in correlation with the real state of affairs- I am just asking for a reason for this belief.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 3, 2021 at 5:50 am

      I have mentioned the reason for my belief.

      The truth is within the parameters of my test and within my 5 senses and limits of my knowledge.

      I do not have capacity to understand beyond it.

      For example, If I was born in primitive times and Allah told me that he made me from dirt and mud, then that is the truth.

      Now after I die and then find out from Allah that no I was actually made of atoms and neutrons, protons, and other sub particles…would I claim that it was a lie? My test at that primitive time was within the parameter of my knowledge.

      We do not know equal to an atom’s weight of knowlege as compared to all atoms in the universe. That is our limit.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 3, 2021 at 5:51 am

      Why are your 5 senses evidence for the ultimate metaphysical truth?

      You do not have the capacity- that is the problem- we have no way to know.

    • Waleed Ahmad

      Member February 3, 2021 at 7:55 am

      But One thing is definite we are not independent. One Supreme Creator is controlling us and we can hope for the best from our Creator.

    • Nadeem Minhas

      Member February 3, 2021 at 8:07 am

      Waleed Bhai, I think Allah is partially controlling us, such as where we are born, our physical condition, our family, country, etc. These items are necessary to generate a test environment. After that we have free will within the will of Allah. For example, if we will to kill a person and Allah’s will is against it, we wont be able to do so. That is why we are judged based on our actions and intentions.

    • Waleed Ahmad

      Member February 3, 2021 at 8:31 am

      I think our intentions are in complete control of our Creator as well. You may know that there is a story in Quran in which it is mentioned that Khidr (A.S) killed a child Because He was going to do something wrong, So it means that Allah saved Him And Allah already knew that what He was going to choose according to his free will and thus Allah saved him from committing sin.

    • Ahmad Shoaib

      Contributor February 3, 2021 at 8:08 am

      I know that. Thats not what I’m asking

  • Nadeem Minhas

    Member February 3, 2021 at 8:10 am

    Waleed bhai. We are going on a tangent so we should start a separate topic.

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor February 3, 2021 at 10:52 am

    So what I seem to have gathered is that there is no human way to know- we just have to accept it as pragmatic knowledge I guess. If anyone has any other thoughts let me know

  • Ahmad Shoaib

    Contributor February 13, 2021 at 3:16 pm

    And the thing you said about people denying reality but then going out and standing on the very road they are not sure about- surely we can just say that that is pragmatic knowledge. Or that when I use my fitrah for reasons of justice or to say something is beautiful or not- it is just a pragmatic use. I have no idea or way to know whether this revelation of the fitrah is actually in correlation with the ultimate metaphysical realities. Someone could question its metaphysical truth value but still use it for the above pragmatic purposes

    Maybe my hand is false. Maybe my chair is false. But my ‘self’, me, my soul- I cannot deny that. I think therefore I am. And the essence of existence must be truth, because if it was falsehood it could simply not exist. If something’s existence is based on falsehood then it does not exist. So ‘I’ am real. ‘I’ am true. And that means that the person who gave this ‘self’, and is maintaining it must be true. Because if he was even a little bit false then he would not be true and then my existence would be false which I cannot deny. And the giver of this ‘self’ must be true. Because it is the giver of all existence. And if his existence was based on falsehood then (existence based on falsehood means he can’t exist) nothing would exist since he is the source of all existence.

    But this is only his existence. What about the things he says? Everything I know, my ability to even think is from him. My definition of truth is based upon what he says- he is the source of truth.

    But what is the essence of communication and information? Is it truth? It seems that we can communicate information that is false. ‘I have one trillion pounds’. This is information based on falsehood. So who is to say that the being who’s the existence is based solely on truth cannot communicate ideas that are not in accordance with reality?

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