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Quran 86:7 – Sperm Produced Between Backbone And RibsPosted by umer Khan on March 14, 2021 at 1:26 pm
Quran is clearly saying that sperm came from backbones and ribs . We muslims try to explain it by saying that it refers to area between it xyz…. but when we look at history there are numerous number of ahadith where prophetPBUH also use words like “you were in backbone of your father when …….” It proved that peopleof that time thinks that sperm came from backbone
How we can aprroch this ayat?Hammad Arshad replied 1 month, 1 week ago 9 Members · 22 Replies
Quran 86:7 – Sperm Produced Between Backbone And RibsHammad Arshad updated 1 month, 1 week ago 9 Members · 22 Replies
AhsanModerator March 14, 2021 at 1:30 pm
umer KhanMember March 14, 2021 at 1:36 pm
How we can get a meaning of something by ignoring all the history ? All sahih historical narratations are telling that arabs even prophet PBUH thought that it came from Backbone thats why they use these kind of words
UmerModerator March 14, 2021 at 3:46 pm
If we understand the language of Quran and how Quran expresses certain terminologies, especially when it comes to intimacy, then there is no issue in understanding their meaning. One caveat though, one needs to have a certain linguistic appreciation w.r.t literary style of Quran.
umer KhanMember March 14, 2021 at 10:36 pm
IIs it fair to ignore what arabs use to do before and after islam what they think about emroyology etc and putting our own interpetetion by linguistic gymnastics?
Faisal HaroonModerator March 15, 2021 at 12:56 am
One may get the sense of ‘linguistic gymnastics’ when they don’t understand what language really is, stylistics that the Quran deploys, and how the science of hermeneutics function. However, being armed with that knowledge this is no longer an issue.
AhsanModerator April 30, 2021 at 1:11 pm
In recent Q&A Session with Ghamidi Sahab on Questions selected from ASK GHAMIDI Platform:
For answer to your question, please refer to the video below from 25:27 to 26:10
Nadeem MinhasMember August 14, 2021 at 9:04 am
The ayah talks about where the fluid is formed ready for ejaculation, not where sperms are produced. Look at the human anatomy, the prostate where semen is fully formed and collected before ejaculation is exactly between backbone and ribs.
Even though ribs and backbone are higher above, but it is used as a reference to find a center.
This is similar to when we normally say that our head is between our shoulders, when head is actually above shoulders.
Hammad ArshadMember February 18, 2023 at 4:40 am
JazakAllah finally some sensible answer to this!!! The one that Zakir Naik gave didn’t make sense.
Faraz SiddiquiMember August 14, 2021 at 11:33 pm
The premise is that Quran is saying the same thing that arabs used to believe so why do we think its divine? This isn’t new and many orientalist have said things like grammatical errors, scientific errors in the Quran etc. This is not new but definitely serious if proven right. let look at the surah
It starts by taking oaths of 2 things (heaven and the bright star) to state a “fact” There is no soul without a vigilant angel ˹recording everything 86:4
after giving 2 oaths from the heavens above, humans r asked to ponder over their own birth as a proof of the above statement. (its saying like, so you doubt that there r angels recording your life then why don’t you see how are you created!!)
Humans are created from an ejaculated fluid, stemming from between backbone and ribs
How is this statement proving the ayag 4? it has to be something miraculous to arabs and for later human beings. Arabs knew sexual act and ejaculation and their idiom was “sulb” or backbone, particularly, lumbar area. Quran uses the same word but added the word, “taraib” or ribs, to restrict the meaning of sulb to the spine opposite to the ribs.
1. the 2 ayahs talking about, mainly, male ejaculation (primarily because male ejaculation is very well known fact. Women ejaculate too but its only sensed by upto 54% women so its not well known)
2. between backbone and ribs, actually, referring to the embryonic stage of male testicular development. They started to form roughly around 7-8th week in the abdomen around vertebra T10-T12. These vertebras are located opposite ribs # 10 & 11. The testes stay in the abdomen and then descend into the scrotum. This is because sperm formation requires lower temperature than body temperature, approx 2 degrees less (Female ovaries also formed in the same area and later descend to occupy lower abdomen)
3. Therefore, quranic statement is extremely accurate describing the origin of human sperm in the testes (or eggs in the ovaries) and, hence, serve as a proof of Allah’s power and day of resurrection (86:8-10) because this couldnt be known to arabs. This is a discovery not even 100 yrs old
for the arabs, mere fact that few ml of fluid results in a human is miracle enough to testify Allah’s power. But since Quran is the last book, it contains facts that couldn’t be known to arabs but discovered later. The miracle is that Quran remained very relevant to the arabs 1400 yrs ago and its still remains relevant to us.
Nadeem MinhasMember August 15, 2021 at 3:02 pm
Brother Faraz. All the rest is good, but Bullet 2 is the explanation that Dr. Zakir Naik gives . I do not find it convincing. It is stretching the meaning to forecefully fit a solution.
It states ejaculation of reproductive fluid not development of male reproductive system. It can either be prostate where the fluid collect and ejaculated or it could be penis.
Prostate is in the center of backbone and ribs so it can be a good answer, but penis is perhaps not in the center.
Nadeem MinhasMember August 15, 2021 at 3:08 pm
Mostly I see that Quran represents a fact that has two answers. One that confirms the verse to be from god and the other that refutes the verse. Believers take the meaning that confirm and strengthen their belief and nonbelievers take the meaning that refutes the verse and reject god and spread confusion.
Quran is this way by design and Quran talks about this itself.
Nadeem MinhasMember August 15, 2021 at 3:36 pm
Following is the process described.
Faraz SiddiquiMember August 15, 2021 at 10:02 pm
Thank you for your comments brother Nadeem
I do, respectfully, disagree with you
Prostate doesn’t sit between ribs and backbone. It sits just below the urinary bladder which resides in pelvis below abdomen.
The ayah starts with “Khuliqua” created from. It couldn’t be prostate because reproduction doesn’t require prostatic fluid. It basically contains fructose, citric acid and few enzymes that provide a medium of mobility for sperms.
Creation wholly depends upon sperms. For in-vitro fertilization, only sperms are taken and not the prostatic fluid, if wife wants to be pregnant from her dead husband then sperms are taken from the testicles and prostate is left. Similarly, penis also doesn’t play any role in “creation” its just a medium of sperm transport and it can be bypassed.
I saw the video posted in the other thread, the brother clearly looked puzzled and gave 3 answers to the criticism. I don’t want to criticize his replies but, just think, Allah made such a big claim (There is no soul without a vigilant angel ˹recording everything, 86:4) and then Allah will back that claim with such an ambiguous ayah?
they way I see it, Allah reminded the arabs to ponder over 2 things, the shooting stars above and the their own birth. Allah restricted “sulb” to the spine opposite ribs, a subtle clue to be discovered later and act an undeniable proof of Quran’s divine origin.
There are so many examples of such things, quran was criticized when Ptolemy’s cosmic model was science of the day (planetary orbital motion) then quran was criticized for mentioning Heavens and earth were together (big bang), criticized for mentioning water as basis of life or the expanding universe. Currently, quran is criticized for mentioning multiple heavens and multiple earths or how quran mentions end of earth (Al Takwir) etc
Nadeem MinhasMember August 15, 2021 at 10:10 pm
I am not being clear with my point. Let me try again.
1. The emphasis of Ayah is on ejaculation of liquid.
2. Inside the prostate there are muscles that squeeze to ejaculate the liquid.
3. If you measure from backbone to ribs and then mark at the center of the distance and then go down from the center, you will find prostate. It is in the center distance from backbone and ribs. Just like our head is at the center of our shoulders.
Nadeem MinhasMember August 15, 2021 at 10:31 pm
Please see these Ayahs. If the emphasis was on creation of human from liquid then quran is not telling anything special to people and there was no need for Ayah 86:7.
No where in these ayahs is a mention of creation process of human reproductive organs in the infant stage either.
86:7 puts emphasis on ejaculation process.
[86:5] Let the human reflect on his creation.
[86:6] He was created from ejected liquid.
[86:7] From between the spine and the viscera.
Faraz SiddiquiMember August 15, 2021 at 11:12 pm
Brother Nadeem, I will not challenge your understanding. I tired looking at images of prostate’s location and i do not understand your view point.
But I’d like to briefly mention how I understood the first 10 ayahs of Surah Shams
1. Allah take oath of the heaven and the shooting (brightest) star. Then Allah challenges that humans do not understand what is a shooting star and them called it the piercing bright start
2. These 2 oaths are used for the claim that every humanbeing has an angel guarding/recording his/her life
3. Allah asked that if you don’t believe then ponder over your own birth. Allah highlights that meager
quantity of fluid you emit results in a creation of a human. Just think how miraculous is that. If Allah can create a human from few drops of liquid why He can not appoint an angel over everyone? Allah also mentioned the origin of the source of creation to be situated between a specific portion of the body. In 16th century when anatomy was allowed by goverments and church, we discovered that the origin of the sperm is not in the abdomen. Its only recently, found that spermatogenesis happens in testicles and they are formed between spine and ribs. They contain cells that hold the unique X and Y chromosomes that each man and woman will give to their child. So, Allah knows each of us so deeply and completely that we can not imagine! This is the insight we got only recently only by simple mention of “sulb wa taraib” (86:7)
4. This ayah testifies to the claim of ayah 8 that says “Surely He is fully capable of bringing them back ˹to life”. If ayah 7 is ambiguous then it makes the ayah 8 doubtful too.
5. All this is tied up is ayah 8 and 9 that gives the last claim “Surely He is fully capable of bringing them back ˹to life” “on the Day all secrets will be disclosed”.
there’s a lot to say about why shooting star is relevant to creation but I’ll save it for another time
Please, i am not favoring “scientific exegesis” of quran, not at all. I believe that quranic statements should be taken as they are. Its not book of science, it gives very subtle but very clear references that become clear over time. Over analysis by language or using multiple meanings from dictionaries should be avoided. Its against “arabi-e-mubeen” quranic statements are at the highest peak of literature and in the clearest form.
I also believe that all oaths should be analyzed using all available tools of philosophy, science, history. Quran is word of Allah and He knows that there’ll be time when man will be at the peak discovering His universe, His book should contain references that’ll keep it relevant to humans of all ages as quran is the absolute last piece of doubtless evidence for His own existence.
Ali ShaikhMember August 16, 2021 at 1:09 am
The word Sulb can be translated as “backbone/lower back” or loins….
There are various ways you can look at this verse, relating to the fact we are all from Adam and Eve
Hadith you are talking is either referring to tailbone of Adam as mentioned in following ahadith if not then definitely it’s loins.
It was narrated that Abu Hurairah said:
“The Messenger of Allah said: ‘The Messenger of Allah said: ‘The whole of the son of Adam will be consumed by the earth, except for the tailbone, from which he was created and from which he will be created anwe. (Sunan Nasai 2077)
Islam 360 translation of sahih Muslim uses word Loins…. backbone is also used to denote backpart of body
;- Anas b. Malik reported Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) as saying:
Allah, the Exalted and High, would say to one who shall have to undergo the least torture (on the Day of Resurrection): Would you like to go as ransom if you had all worldly riches; he would say: Yes. Allah would say to him: When you were in the loins of Adam, I demanded from you something easier than this that you should not associate anything with Me. (The narrator says): I think He also said: I would not cause you to enter Hell-Fire but you defied and attributed Divinity (to others besides Me). [Sahih Muslim 2805]
This was case prior to our creation not in this earth…. In another ahadith prophet saw said you were in father’s loin… It can only be said when father is present so in my opinion this case when he is on earth so here sulb refers to loin which includes reproductive part
A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah’s Messenger ( صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said:
Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: ‘A’isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father’s loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father’s loins. [Sahih Muslim 2662]
None of translators (including non muslims) translated it as sperm
And hadith is talking about we were present loins and quran is saying fluid emitting between rib and loins so there’s contradiction…. If we take this translation…… So it’s clear hadith isn’t talking about that one….
-Sperm is developed from the testicles
-The rest of the semen/ejaculation comes from the seminal vesicles with the rest coming from the prostate gland and bulbourethral.
-Ejaculation occurring between the Sulb/Ribs is definitely correct
Ali ShaikhMember August 16, 2021 at 2:38 am
Faraz SiddiquiMember August 16, 2021 at 7:22 am
Thank you brother Ali
the article is a long but good read. Don’t want to comment on it
you mentioned few hadiths, does any hadith mentioned “sulb wa taraib’? probably not because Muhammad SAW used the words, idioms and metaphors used by other arabs.
this is the video I was referring to as well. Not convincing but confusing.
quran definitely speaking of an ejaculated fluid and not sperms. However, using the word khuliqua and taraib, its giving a deeper meaning and mentioning a fact thats not known and only proven later
sulb translated as loins is dictionary meaning, arabs didnt use it like that. Backbone is how “sulb” was used and metaphorically used as “lineage” which further confirms that its referring to the father because lineage is decided by fatherhood
Besides even if loins is taken, it doesn’t refer to male genitals because they lie much lower. female organs are also lower in the pelvis and only reaches loins when pregnant
In the end, whatever satisfies your heart matters
Ali ShaikhMember August 16, 2021 at 10:54 am
Created from ejected fluid ;- i.e. semen which includes sperm and other fluids. I don’t think it has some other allegorical meaning anyway I’m not sure..
Taraib generally refers to part of female according to arabs but that’s not a case here, most of translators translated it as rib or breast bone anyway word sulb is also used in Quran 4:23 translation is loins in most of the translations. Even in the arabic bible translation of sulb is loin. So we can accept this.
But loins also refers to reproductive organs as mentioned in merriam website https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loin
We can use this for ahadith and for quran it says between the loins and rib that is fluid ejected….
Faraz SiddiquiMember August 16, 2021 at 11:39 am
I respect your opinion
Taraib translated as many things, scholars were trying to make it fit acc to their understanding or the science of their age. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, we r doing the exact same thing
Both taraib and sulb should be taken in there most common and well known meanings
4:23, its used in terms of lineage and not reproductive organs, I mentioned its metaphorical use as lineage earlier
if you r satisfied in taking the last mentioned meaning, merriam-webster, of sulb=reproductive organs then its your choice
Plz google images of male and female reproductive organs, there r lot of images showing the relationship with other parts of the body. It can not be loins because organs are much lower in the pelvis.
You can attribute the metaphorical meaning to it or something else, it might be correct. For me, however, giving it any other meaning is not justified because it simply becomes an ambiguous statement and not a testimony to the claim in 86:4
Ahmed HabibMember September 16, 2021 at 9:06 am
This ayat is a an analogy given by Quran and miraculous one ! First of all if Quran had said that sperms are produced from testes this would have been wrong at that time as they thought that it came from back bone!! If u read the traditions they mention so! Therefore Quran creates the analogy that it comes from between the backbones and the ribs and testes are located there just as our head is between the two shoulders! But Quran never mentions testes due to level of sanctity as it is a holy text!so this ayat is correct in both times for people of old if sperm comes from backbone it will have to go through this passage which is described in the ayat and also it is valid now for testis! And sperms are made in testis and they are ejected through seminal vesicle located as described in the ayat sothis is level of the precision of Quran! Also scientifically testes of an embryo are also at 11 rib and they descend down as he goes this is an additional information regarding the ayat! Surah mumtaniah also created such an analogy and says that private parts are located between two feet! However they between just as head is in between the head!
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