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Last 2 Verses Of Srah Tawbah And Historic Evidences
Regarding these verses…
It is said in hadith that only 1 written source was backing it…prbably of abu khazaima al ansari….
So it means that here qoli tawatur and tahreeri tawatur seems not found
Pt2:some people have worked on numerical code 19 in this surah….and these 2 verses violate that code balance…
I know regarding 2nd pt. May be u will say why u put theory or hypothesis to support it….
Yes i know its not very powerful to put hypothesis in support of anything…..
But this 19 code as hypothesized by Rashad khalifa seems convincing in many ways….
So because of its convincing nature i put it here….
Now qns which urs honor has to answer:pt1 about tawatur.2)Nature of these codes….which appear to be convincing like in surah Qaf….instead of Qom….ikhwan is used….which makes it possible to make 57 qaf….which is muktiple of 19…
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Last 2 Verses Of Srah Tawbah And Historic Evidences
updated 3 months ago
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15
Replies
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Ijma and tawstur means that what is transmitted through generations to generations incessantly. Qur’an is transmitted through this means. No haidth is transmitted in this way.
Qur’an is not supposed to conform to the theories. These are just conjecture. Qur’an is the book of guidance. One should seek guidance from Qur’an in the matters of morality, shariah and accountability in the hereafter.
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While the Code 19 is indeed a great finding and can be used to demonstrate the miraculous arrangement/structure of the Qur’an… Rashad Khalifa crossed some limits here. He got overwhelmed and overexcited with this finding and tried to apply it to every possible place he could (even where it doesn’t fit), and while doing so, he was unfair… he forged some of his own methods just to prove his point, he was not consistent with his own method when it came to the last two verses of Surah Tawbah.
This is one video which exposed RK’s attempt on deception with clear proofs: https://youtu.be/7F4R5K0JdmE?si=nCNkgSyJr09JQNaX
Note: I am not recommending that channel, but that video will answer your question.
Also! Would you believe in Allah’s Promise to protect the Qur’an or would you believe in a person thousand years later to find a “mistake” in the preservation?
It’s a trial for us. RK used weak Hadiths (which he himself doesn’t believe in) to fool many
If one starts to question the two Verses, then it destroys the credibility of the entire Qur’an because the oral memorization and transmission can no longer be relied upon. Again, it’s a trial. Don’t fall for that trap.
The Qur’an is preserved 100% as we have it today.
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I am not talking what i believe…but what i want to have answer for criticisms..which is academic appraoch….
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The academic approach is that such conjectures do not qualify to be a theory.
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I think in certain aspects may be it will provude evidence….but taking it base and trying to cover every type of aspect by tbis 19 theory….is wrong….
This has possiblity….
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According to Dr. ISRAR he is also satisfied by it upto limited level…
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A theory is obviosly a theory….And as well there seems no purpose of anyone to inject tgese ayahs if for sake of discussion we assume….
Because there is no such thing which may become beneficial for him in any way…..
It may be also that some people had realizes 19 code….or so…and then Rk tried to adjust it in every aspect….he as well added letters,adjustments many a times…..
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1. The historical argument is not sound.
Using a source that has no tawatur and ijma that came centuries later the Qur’an to challenge the authenticity of its verses which do have a tawatur. ijma and predates the hadith? I don’t think I need to explain how this is irrational.The Prophet (PBUH) recited the whole Qur’an in Ramazan which Sahaba learned, why would they go and search for witnesses for every verse when writing down the Qur’an? Why isn’t there more reports of Sahaba telling us that the two verses are added or missing after they saw the written version afterwards? Sahaba fought wars with each other over Khalifa’s killer and were displeased when they heard news of Hazrat Usman (RA) burning of Qur’an yet one must believe that verses are meaning added to the Word of Allah and they remained silent on this? It’s not believable. That’s the point of tawatur and ijma, you can’t add something to Qur’an and Sunnah without the majority of Muslims making noise and objection to it, and then this objections gets recorded throughout history but this conflict is lacking in terms of the two verses mentioned.
Discussion 793642. The Farahi approach must be understood.
If you read the verse 74:30 and then 31 after it where the number 19 is taken, you will realize that it does not talk about any formula or anything. The word of the Qur’an must testify to what is being proposed. Here the purpose of mentioning number the angel of Hell was a test to the immediate audience of Qur’an to show how arrogant they have become. There is no mention of the number serving any other goal. Choosing to believe so is conjecture and Farahi school of thought will not accept it because the word and context do not allow it. It is the same as trying to pull out ‘scientific miracles’ out of the Qur’an, it is not purpose of the text.
3. The number 19 is arbitrary for selection.
Why not choose the number 7? The 7 Heavens, The 7 mathani (15:87) which even refers to the Qur’an. This would be a better number. Yet 19 was chosen for some reason. As you know RK did not believe in Sunnah or Hadith much, followers of this view could at one point argue that why we have 30 days for Ramazan, and start questioning the last 11 days to make sure it is 19 days. Or why we pray 5 times a day and not 19? This could continue and it can lead to butchering of the Deen in general. This is why as Farahi approach goes, Allah uses clear words to convey meaning behind verses and how His religion is established. If number 19 was a tool to protect the Qur’an from addition, He would have mentioned and explained the formula clearly for us but until then this is a conjecture at best and a poor one.4. The person is questionable.
While I do not want to comment on individuals and intentions but in this case, one must understand who Rashad Khalifa was. He claimed not to be a prophet, he claimed to be a Messenger who spoke to Hazrat Jibrael, claiming to be a Rasool and then be murdered. I do not think I need to explain why, we need to be careful with anything he proposed. Both his argument lacks merit and his character was questionable. He is followed mostly by the Qur’anist Muslims and for that, this discussion is relevant.
Discussion 1123 -
Any ghamidi sahabs clip regarding this
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Not in my knowledge but the two links I gave above, you will understand how Ghamidi Sahab thinks about these topics i.e his argument on why Qur’an and Sunnah are solid in terms of authenticity and the Quranist discussion being about why you must follow certain principle to understand the Qur’an or anyone can interpret anything out of it which is dangerous.
This is probably why he does not comment on RK. He violated two main points of his that I linked above. There is also Ghamidi Sahab video on why scientific and numerical miracles should not be pulled out of the Qur’an which is relevant:
Discussion 30165 • Reply 30288
You may make a separate thread requesting for Ghamidi Sahab opinion on RK or just register for Ask Ghamidi event.
For more relevant discussions on this, kindly see:
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If anyone of you p,ease will ask same qn…then probablity of answering will increase….
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Well….I’ll be honest, not many of us care about this topic.
RK is not that important to most of us, like say Qadiani issue.
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Dear you are right…but it is not about us…are we irritated of something or not…but in future maybe someone will get irritated by it….
So for us all it will become sadqe jariya
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Well it’s not that important in that sense either because if you understand Ghamidi Sahab’s opinion on numerical/scientific miracles in general, how he approaches Quranist in general, how he presents tawatur and ijma of Quran/Sunnah and how he values the language’s word, sentence and context in Quranic verses (all of which I have linked above).
Then it becomes obvious what Ghamidi Sahab is going to say about RK and the number 19.
This is why no one will likely ask him this question. And in our case, sadqe jariya has already been recorded. Now it is up to Allah to lead the frustrated to pile up and then this question would reach Ghamidi Sahab, but the issue is, a question regarding Quranist in general or Qadiyani would reach Ghamidi Sahab before this (or even human milk bank heh), so wait in line I’m afraid.
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https://quranaloneislam.org/rashad-khalifa-exposed/
Here you will get answer….appreciable
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