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Quran Wa Sunnah
There’s a hadeeth that says that” I have left two things in you Qur’an and Sunnah, as long as you hold on to it you’ll never go astray” أو كما قال صلي الله عليه وسلم.
So far my understanding was that Qur’an is still here, it will be here until the end of times bcs Allah Subhanahu wa ta’la took the responsibility of protecting it Himself. So we can hold on to it. As far as Sunnah is concerned we have the books of ahadeeth, Bukhari, Muslim etc and the biography of Muhammad sallallahu alai hi wa sallam in written form we can study those and determine how to apply Qur’an in our lives. As long as we do that we will be fine ( don’t go astray according to the above hadeeth). I’m confused when I hear Ghamidi SB explaining the Sunnah. I agree that Muhammed sallallahu alai wa sallam didn’t bring any new religion ,there were other prophets that came with the same message before from our Creator, but for practical purposes we just need to follow the Sunnah of our Rasool, he completed it for us. And to know what his Sunnah is, we depend on books of ahadeeth and what ever historical records we have of his life. Other than that I don’t understand what Ghamidi saheb talks about. If we don’t consider this historical records as Sunnah we don’t have anything left. Because it doesn’t take too long for people to distort the proper ways of Rasool and introduce new things in the religion. With in few generations the truth and falsehood can be all mixed up. For example without the historical records it was impossible for us now to pray our salah exactly the way Muhammad sallallahu alai hi wa sallam prayed. Just by ijma and tawatur. If he says that we get Sunnah just by ijma and tawatur it’s hard to understand bcs things change within few generations
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37 Replies
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Quran Wa Sunnah
updated 1 year, 6 months ago
10 Members
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37
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I think what I’m trying to say is that if we don’t consider the historical records of Muhammad sallallahu alai hi wa sallam as Sunnah there’s no actually Sunnah present at this time as it is
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Then what was the status of Sunnah for first 200-300 years during the time when these books on Ahadith were not compiled? and even after getting compiled, there was no possible way to publish enough copies to meet the demand of that time (since it was a source of religion). Was the religion incomplete during all those years? & how did all the people during that time used to pray and perform other Ibadah in the absence of such Ahadith books?
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The closer a qawm is with their Rasool in time the more chances are following his Sunnah accurately, So it’s possible they followed him the first 100-200 yrs by ijmah and tawatur, as time passes it doesn’t stay in it’s original form
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So according to you, ijma and tawatur come to an end or start fading after 200-300 years?
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Ijma’ and tawatur are like folk tales if they’re not backed by recorded history. Don’t we all experience this? that we hear stories from nanis dadis, we grow up thinking that it’s Deen and we actually get tawfeeq to look into Qur’an and the ahadeeth ( recorded history) and find out that those were folk tales and they have nothing to do with Sunnah. So if we don’t have that recorded history there’s no way to distinguish between tales and actual deen
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You might find these discussions useful:
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Established history, ijma and tawatur supersedes the recorded history. Folk tales of Nanis, Dadis were actually Akhbar-i-ahad (narrations of few, transmitted to few and further transmitted forward to few). They could never reach to the level of Ijma and tawatur.
If not for Ijma and Tawatur, how do you know that the current Quran you have is the same Quran as revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him)?
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“If not for Ijma and Tawatur, how do you know that the current Quran you have is the same Quran as revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him)?”
If you have faith in Allah, then Allah promised to protect the Qur’an .. right ? That will be proof enough.
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Qur’an is not the same as the Sunnah as far as the preservation is concerned because it’s in the hearts of millions of people (memorized) and also Allah has promised to protect it as you have correctly mentioned
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Just like Quran, Sunnah is also in the hearts of millions and is being practiced since the day one.
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Not correct. I agree there are some people who have memorised the ahadeeths of Rasoolullah sallallahu alai hi wa sallam. Not just like Qur’an
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I’m not arguing just for the sake of arguing , I’m trying to understand. Ghamidi Sb’s discussions and arguments on this issue are too scholarly for a lay person like me. According to the above hadeeth I mentioned ( I know this hadeeth bcs I have read it in many authentic books, I didn’t get it from tawatur) we are supposed to hold on to the Qur’an and Sunnah and live our lives accordingly. The mushaf (Qur’an) is here in my hands and in my heart too, alhamdulillah. where’s the Sunnah? If it’s not the collection of ahadeeth and the biography of Muhammad sallallahu alai hi wa sallam ,I have in my shelf?
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And I need the Sunnah to understand the Quran the correct way
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So you are trying to say if not for bukhari we would be praying 6 times a day?
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Who knows
Even if number was correct how we prayed the Salah could be messed up
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You see this is not a ‘who knows’ . This practice of salah and transmission fo Quran tk this date is not based on some (Quran) old manuscript that we dig up and find. The same way all Muslims have been praying five times a day since the beginning not six or seven. Imagine today trying to make the daily prayers six. The same way it is impossible now it was impossible back then. Same is for method of the prayer
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Saba sahiba, I think your confusion stems from the concept that the source of sunnah is hadeeth. This is not correct.
Just like the Quran has been perpetually transmitted to us generation after generation through the consensus of the entire ummah and their qauli tawatur, the sunnah has been transmitted to us through the consensus of the entire ummah and their amali tawatur. Both have been protected through the exact same means – the only difference is that the Quran’s transmission naturally required qauli tawatur, while that of the sunnah required amali tawatur.
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I guess I was not able to make my point across properly. I feel like I’m one of those when Allah subhanahu wa ta’la says ” أو من ينشؤ في الحلية وهو في الخصام غير مبين” I appreciate brothers Haroon and Umer patiently trying to explain. Jazakum Allahu khairan
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If you do not understand I’m pretty sure everyone will be happy to help 😀
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Salam sister Saba. I think these videos may help in understanding Ghamidi sb’s understanding of Sunnah and the differences between sunnah and hadith. The discussions links provided by brother Umer shed further light on this topic. Hope this helps.
https://www.javedahmedghamidi.org/#!/video/5aabdbc2b951cb6c099eaa5b
https://www.javedahmedghamidi.org/#!/video/5aabdcb3b951cb6c099eb247
https://www.javedahmedghamidi.org/#!/video/5ed4a108ce862bca71d0468e
Please feel free share your thoughts afterwards. I’m always keen to learn from others. 🙂
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Thanks, I will check it out inshaAllah.
My argument was not that the Sunnah is not alive today. Alhamdulillah our deen is preserved in it’s purest form, Allah subhanahu wa ta’la preserved his Deen in whatever way according to His wisdom. In general my understanding was that things don’t stay the same as the time passes. For example Isa alai hi alssalam must have prayed and taught his hawwareen how to pray but within few centuries at the time of our Rasool sallallahu alai hi wa sallam how many people were praying the Salah the correct way? Allah Subhanahu wa ta’la says “و ما كان صلاةهم عند البيت إلا مكاء وتصدية” So their Salah was reduced to mere clapping and whistling in 600 yrs?
I wanted to make the title of this topic Qur’an wa Sunnah. The ‘wa’ turned into was. I couldn’t edit it
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Muhammed sallallahu alai hi wa sallam didn’t pray Salah before nabuwwat in its current form, he only learnt it from jibreel after he became the prophet . Correct?
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I believe some remnants were still there. Anyway after the prophet ﴾ﷺ﴿ the entire ummah with ijma and tawatur has been praying the same way. If you search on the internet traditional Jewish and Christian prayer it is very similar to our salah
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Firstly, Hazrat Esa (AS) didn’t get a chance to actually revive and portray that Sunnah the way Prophet Muhammad (SWS) got the chance to do that. He didn’t get leadership of a state, neither were there any considerable number of followers to actually perpetually transfer that religion to a level where it reaches to the level of Ijma and Tawatur starting from the source point i.e. Esa (AS).
Secondly, Bani-Ismael were following tradition of Hazrat Ismael (AS) which did have amalgamation of certain religious innovations in them as well (a glimpse of which can be seen in the Quran when it mentions innovation of Quraysh during Hajj). Among other things, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was ordered to revive that tradition of Abrahamic religion and He revived and disseminated it to a level where its dependency on historical narrations became irrelevant through Ijma and Tawatur.
Thirdly, the verse that you mentioned (8:35) is referring to Salah-tul-Bait which refers to tawaf of Kaaba. Even if you take it in the meaning of regular Salah, it would still mean that they were perfectly aware of the concept and word of Salah, it is the same reason Prophet was sent to put an end to all these innovations and revive it back to original Abrahamic way.
Fourthly, If corpus of Ahadith according to you contains all the Sunnah among other things, there is not a single Hadith where prophet has gathered people and initiated any such thing like Salah, Zakah, Hajj, Saum etc. All ahadith refer to either application instances and to situations where some questions had arisen in between the application of those Sunnah. Had ahadith been the source of religion, they should contain explicit narrations of Prophet (sws) ordering initiation of these Sunnah.
Lastly, there are also issues related to mode of transmission of Hadith. Their veracity to Prophet Muhammad (sws) can never be established with 100% confidence. That is why it is always termed as ‘Zanni ilm’ / ‘Zanni-us-saboot’ ilm in terms of usool-e-Hadith and fiqh. People who tried to establish its 100% veracity used very vague arguments like Ibn-e-Salah, for example, used the current ijma of ummat and ‘masoomiat’ (innocence) of ummat argument to establish the veracity of Bukhari and Muslim. From an academic standpoint, what we can do is to analyse all the corpus of ahadith rigorously and apply rules of rijal to establish health of narrators and then analyse the same corpus in the light of Quran and Sunnah to reach to a level of confidence as to present those words as words of Prophet (sws). Even after doing that, I haven’t come across any Hadith myself according to my limited research where it adds something to the religion.
Even if this still doesn’t make sense to you, please keep following the series on “Response to 23 Questions” by Ghamidi Sahab, according to my understanding, Hadith and Sunnah will be discussed in detail in the coming sessions Insha’Allah. Hopefully those sessions might clear the point we’re trying to purport.
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Sunnah is tradition of prophets. inheritence of every muslim from the last prophets.
Islam starts with the great prophet adam and our father, the sunnah is pre-existing islamic practices which quran does not need to teach, as we don’t learn what we have learned in previous classes in school. we instead are told to make use of it, because if something pre-exist one does not need to teach it when it is time to re-establish the message.O you, who believe. Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious). (Fasting) for a fixed number of days, but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the same number (should be made up) from other days. And as for those who can fast with difficulty, (i.e. an old man, etc.), they have (a choice either to fast or) to feed a poor person (for every day). But whoever does good of his own accord, it is better for him. And that you fast, it is better for you if only you know.” (Qur’an, 2:183-84)”
”Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you,”
as practices of islam pre-exist and are still available to see in ahle kitab as you can see sunnah of bless you when you sneez in christains.
hadith and sunnah – in hadith literature the sunnah have been encapsulated by it. which happened way after muhammad saw and sahaba’s time. the sunnah is alive even before bukhari came to existence. as sunnah is also a source of religion, like quran it is taught to masses and saved in their practices, such as by tongue and action. best way to save information is not to write a book, and make copies but to have mass become living evidence. we muslims are living evidence of coding of information. when a mass of people are one and same on something taught by an individual it makes it impossible that information to be lost. as we inherit and then transfer the information as we learn. this is mass ijamati transfer of information.
these two forms of saving information makes it impossible for information to be lost
it is same with quran. Quran is taught to mass > mass taught to generations. when time came sahaba encapsulated it a book.
is book primary source of saving of quran? no it is again the living practice of mass.
Because it doesn’t take too long for people to distort the proper ways of Rasool and introduce new things in the religion. With in few generations the truth and falsehood can be all mixed up. For example without the historical records it was impossible for us now to pray our salah exactly the way Muhammad sallallahu alai hi wa sallam prayed. Just by ijma and tawatur. If he says that we get Sunnah just by ijma and tawatur it’s hard to understand bcs things change within few generations
we to this day learn all sunnah the same way, we don’t learn to pray by going to hadith books. it is our parents who taught us.
because to save information is best to save in practice of mass it was never saved by sahaba or muhammad saw in version of text as primary source.
there is also a reason you won’t find haidth which narrate prayer completely. because it was also not needed it pre existed, it exist in mass practice and mass when mass is practicing something since 1st generation and that 1st generation is transfering it through actions and tongue it becomes impossible for that information to be lost..
it is far easier to lose information from books because books exist in limited numbers but people who are living books exist in many unlimited numbers. so best way to perserve an idea is to preserve it in people. like idea of 14th august and the practice of event of 14th august. or idea of wazu and its practice. or idea of showering and practice of showering. or idea of making tea and practice of making tea. it is not possible to kill an idea when it is saved inside people.
what to make up upcomign time can it change? no it can’t because we are also the upcoming time for past people. the present that we exist is itself evidence against the argument.
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also let me point out, indeed hadith record is also a way to save sunnah but it isn’t primary way. it is not even secondary because sunnah is also secondly preserved in fuqah in their books. 3rdly the hadith has encapsulated it that’s all.
so two main primary barer exist for codifying the knowledge. first one being living books we human beings and idea lives as living sunnah in, secondly the books of fuqah who are recording and commenting on it.
3rd historical records who has encapsulated it.
which one is primary and chosen by muhammad saw and god? the mass. for quran and sunnah. why? because it is best way to save information is to make it alive. when something is alive it also secondly lives in books of people who teach and comment and debate them. then in historical records when they get recorded…
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Thank you brothers! May Allah increase you more in knowledge and Amal. Yes, I’m following ” response to 23 questions, very informative, alhamdulillah I’m learning a lot
Jazakum Allahu kharan
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Also, pls. note the hadith in question ” I have left two things in you Qur’an and Sunnah” has another variant which suggests the 2nd weighty thing is Ahl-e-Bayt not Sunnah.
In the authentic Sunni books like Sahi Muslim, it says Ahl-e-Bayt.
Hassan Ilyas sb. has worked on this narration, based on his research the original narration only says Quran (neither Sunnah nor Ahl-e-Bayt).
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Oh, I knew about ahle bait version but didn’t know about Hassan Ilyas sb’s research. Jzk for letting me know
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@Sohail bhai can you please help me with the research of ahl-e-bayt version of hadith analysis by hassan ilyas sahab.
I have looked the Discussion 880… it has Amin Islahi (rh) pdf about mutawatir hadith and video from ghamidi sir about difference between sunnah and hadith.
Kindly pinpoint if I am missing something in that thread.
Jazakallahu khair.
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Please see:
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Jazakallahu khair Umer bhai..
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“Two weighty things” is not the “primary” daleel for Sunnah, it is Quran itself.
Pls. see this for details
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Ok,I have read all the above and my questions are:
Is it sunnah written somewhere?I want to read it .
If hadith is not sunnah then,can we not take the hadith in consideration?Like to say hadith no not exist.To never read Bukhari,Muslim,etc .As muslims,can we adopt such attitude? Just to know Quran and sunnah.Again,where can I find the sunnah?
Sorry for repeating myself
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probably if you read this discussion again with all the links posted above, you might find the answer.
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Thank you.I will read it more carefully
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